What if God, willing to. . . .

[Ritajanice]

Christs atonement wasn’t probable it was definite. It accomplished just what it was meant for. Jesus said it was finished, he did not say it will be finished later in time.

This makes no sense to me, sorry..

Christ died so that our spirit could become Born Again.

When you were born again, is when salvation was applied to you. It’s already been paid for. Jesus was the surety.

Do you know of and understsnd headship theology?

I understand the word of God that was revealed to my heart by Gods Witness His Living Holy Spirit.

I don’t need to understand any headship theology.

I am led to understand God’s word by the helper who indwells my spirit..the Holy Spirit.

Being Born Of God’s seed is very easy to understand...

 

[Carbon]

So how can the cross forgive our sins?..or am I misunderstanding?

Where in you would you know about the cross?

Yes your misunderstanding. Your sins were forgiven on the cross.

When Christ was crucified, the elects sins were imputed unto him.

Eph 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

This (Eph 2:8) in the Greek points to two times, at the cross and the day of your personal salvation.

So I could ask. Were you saved, when you believed and confessed Christ? You would say- yes.

Then I could ask. Were you saved at the cross? You could also answer, yes.

Or let me put it this way,

Were you saved at the cross or when you believed and confessed Christ. The answer is: yes.

 

[Carbon]

Believing it existed, can only come by the spiritual rebirth/ divine revelation.

You can’t believe the cross or anything about it unless one has been Born Of God’s seed.

Then the word of God will be revealed to our heart...that can take years and years to understand in the spirit...it has for me anyway.

God had to get me right in my heart that was full of human teachings...before he could bring me in my spirit to understand his word...

I think we are in many areas. We are just talking past each other

 

[Ritajanice]

Yes your misunderstanding. Your sins were forgiven on the cross.

My sins were loaded onto Jesus on the cross

When Christ was crucified, the elects sins were imputed unto him.

Eph 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

This (Eph 2:8) in the Greek points to two times, at the cross and the day of your personal salvation.

So I could ask. Were you saved, when you believed and confessed Christ? You would say- yes.

Then I could ask. Were you saved at the cross? You could also answer, yes.

Or let me put it this way,

Were you saved at the cross or when you believed and confessed Christ. The answer is: yes.

None of this makes sense.

I am Born Again then saved from eternal damnation..you can’t put the horse before the cart.

I was brought to believe in Jesus by the Spirit.

I was brought to repentance by the Spirit.

I was gifted faith by the Spirit/ Born Again in my spirit, my spirit is right before God..now that I am Born Of God’s seed.

The cross never came into it..when God by his Spirit gave birth to my spirit....Jesus ( believe in) must come before the rebirth..

I only know that Jesus existed because I have His witness witnessing that truth to my heart/ spirit...no way could I know anything about Jesus in my spirit unless I’m Born Again..

I could read the story about him in the word..that would only be able to be understood in my human understanding...I need to be Born Again to understand Jesus and what he represented in my spirit...hence we must be Born Again to see the Kingdom Of God.

The Bible is a Spirit book and can only be understood in the spirit.

 

[Ritajanice]

I think we are in many areas. We are just talking past each other

I think we understand differently...we can only post what is witnessed to our heart..I don’t think we are talking past each other.

You understand the word your way as God speaks it to your heart.

I understand the word my way..as God speaks it to my heart.

We agree on a lot..some areas we understand very differently..nothing wrong in that is there?

I know the cross and Jesus only when my spirit became Born Again...that was revealed to my heart by Gods Witness His Living Holy Spirit.

 

[Red Baker]

Does it make sense to use use 2 Peter 3:9 to teach God is not willing that any should perish, when Rom 9:22 declares God is willing for reprobates to perish.

To teach that God is not willingly for men to perish by using 2nd Peter 3:9 is a corruption of God's word. If God was not willingly, then none would! Consider briefly:

2 Peter 3:9​

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

In above scriptures of the same chapter, Peter said that in the last days

2nd Peter 3:3b,4~"................there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

These lustful worldly minded fools, whom Petr calls scoffers, mock the promises of God concerning his coming again and mock those precious souls who believe the word of God and as weak minded men and women, who need such clutches to lean on becuase they are not as wise and strong as they are. which able to provide for themselves by their own power and wisdom..... their foolish thoughts are. I have have heard them, for myself, so I know what I'm saying is true.

Peter went on to say:

2nd Peter 3:5-7~"For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

Moving on..... in verse 9 Peter reveals why the Lord has not come back sooner than later....It is very plain~God is long suffering to usward not willing that anyone of his chosen person perish, just as he waited in the days of Noah so Noah and his family could and would have a place of refuge from the flood that was coming, as Noah faithfully preached by building the ark, which no doubt scoffers mock him for doing do. Btw, there was no sign on the side of the ark, saying~"Smile God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life" ....... for the scoffers of Noah's day"!

One more point~to see who is the usward, let's go back at the start of Peter's epistle.

2nd Peter 1:1-4~"Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

The reason why the Lord is not yet come back, it is because he is not willing that any of his elect perish, but that all of them are born again and obtain the same blessings that those before them has obtained. Not one drop of water could fall until Noah was safe within the ark and God had personally shut the door.

Genesis 7:16~And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.
The day of salvation is very close of being finish, only God know the day and hour, we may get close to season~and I believe we safely can.

 

[Josheb]

Three brief points:

1. The ELECT were ELECT before their salvation, so Ephesians 2 applies to the same ELECT as 2 Peter 3.
2. If you believe the "saved" of Ephesians 2:1-10 involved no "repentance" because the word is not mentioned, then YOU have serious doctrinal comprehension issues far beyond this meager topic.
3. I can explain it TO you, but I cannot understand it FOR you ... that is above my pay grade [ask God to open your eyes].

Good luck, you have chosen a hard row to hoe.

Red herring, all of it. Nothing posted has resolved the matter of the elect perishing (whether they are pre-saved elect or post-saved elect). You've wasted multiple posts NOT addressing that point.

2 Peter 3:9 = the ELECT that will repent and be saved in the future [including people like US that had not yet been born, but were FOREKNOWN by God, predestined, justified in Christ, but would be called, would repent, and will be glorified] are the reason that God has delayed His return ... He would not loose us by coming before the full number have been gathered into the Family of God ... an exact number known to the OMNISCIENT Father from the Beginning of the beginning.

That's why.

None of that is in dispute! If everything you've just said is true (and I agree that it is) then you still have the problem of their perishing. My position does not have that problem. Yours does. The elect cannot perish. It does not matter whether they are the yet-to-be-saved elect, or the already-saved elect. Neither can or will perish soteriologically. God's not wanting them to perish is oxymoronic in ALL the dissent I have received, and that is neither scriptural nor logical.

I can explain it to you, but I cannot understand it for you no matter how many condescending make-it-about-the-poster posts I receive.

 

[Josheb]

All I did was give an answer to the question YOU asked.

Yep. And I affirmed the answer.

Did anyone say or even suggest such a thing?

No, and that's a huge problem on the dissent side of these exchanges. You alone answered correctly, and all your peers did not. Well done.

 

[Alive]

I am waiting for a huge number of ethnic Jews to be converted.

 

[Josheb]

2 Pet. 3:8 is addressed to the "beloved"; however, although only those who are saved will know that they are part of that group, it includes all the elect who are not saved yet. Not only that, but, "beloved" does not include the reprobates, who were described earlier in the passage and from whom verse 8 begins a contrast (hence the "But" at the start of the verse).


Amen.

To use 2 Pet. 3:9 soteriologically is sensible, right and exegetically correct. It is not remotely "eisegetic".

There is no suggestion that the elect can perish salvifically, only a promise that they will not, and part of the reason why they will not. God's planned certainties require the means to bring them about, which are also planned and certain.

There are many of the elect who DO need to repent to become saved. These ones are not already saved and God has promised that they will come to repentance, because his long-suffering towards us (the elect) is salvation (verse 15).

I do not recall anyone being directed to be an overcomer. I do recall promises to the overcomers (the Bible declares that everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world).

All of that has been covered in prior posts. It adds nothing new to the discussion.

Leading question much?

No. It is based on something someone else posted and it is a valid question given what was stated (and that should have been recognized if the thread has been read). Arial was able to answer it. Why no one else? Why should I have to ask that question multiple times and no one answer it (until Arial did so).

To what repentance would the as yet unsaved elect need to come?

And the unsaved non-elect, too. That repentance would be the same for all unsaved people . In other words, there are a series of unstated assumptions being made simply by treating verse 9 as soteriological and is applicable solely to the elect...... especially when the matter of perishing comes into play. I have said this repeatedly: The elect cannot perish. God not wanting those who cannot perish is oxymoronic!

Not a single poster here has addressed that problem and most who've tried resorted to ad hominem . Ad hominem never serves as a rebuttal to anything.

The saved elect are already in a state of repentance (they have changed their minds about sin and God) and it would only be specific, named sins from which they would need to repent; but there aren't any mentioned in the passage in question.

That first part is correct, but the last part is not, and it's all already been covered previously in the thread.

You need to revisit your interpretation of 2 Pet. 3:9, including the preceding and subsequent immediate contexts.

Right. The problem is me. Got it. Thank you for your time.

 

[Josheb]

What? I agree with what Arial posted; but it CONTRADICTS what you posted.

What specifically did I post that was contradictory?

I'm staggered that you think otherwise.

I don't care. Your staggering is irrelevant.

 

[Josheb]

I am waiting for a huge number of ethnic Jews to be converted.

As opposed to ethnic Uyghurs, Totos, or Dogons? Why?

 

[Carbon]

To teach that God is not willingly for men to perish by using 2nd Peter 3:9 is a corruption of God's word. If God was not willingly, then none would!

Amen to that!

 

[Carbon]

I am waiting for a huge number of ethnic Jews to be converted.

Me too.

 

[Josheb]

I didn't understand any of that. I probably don't need to.

I have read Sproul and others. I thoroughly understand. I just disagree.

Those two posts contradict one another.

 

[Josheb]

To teach that God is not willingly for men to perish by using 2nd Peter 3:9 is a corruption of God's word. If God was not willingly, then none would!

Yep.

 

[Alive]

As opposed to ethnic Uyghurs, Totos, or Dogons? Why?

I don’t know who those folks are.
I am speaking to the winding down of the ‘time of the gentiles’.

 

[Red Baker]

I am waiting for a huge number of ethnic Jews to be converted.

Brother, that will never happen~he will never revisit them again as a nation. Of course there will be some among them that God will call, but, not many, just as there were a few Gentiles in the OT, but not many.

 

[Alive]

Brother, that will never happen~he will never revisit them again as a nation. Of course there will be some among them that God will call, but, not many, just as there were a few Gentiles in the OT, but not many.

I did not say anything about a nation.

 

[atpollard]

Red herring, all of it. Nothing posted has resolved the matter of the elect perishing (whether they are pre-saved elect or post-saved elect). You've wasted multiple posts NOT addressing that point.

Got it (and it HAS been addressed). Let's try a more Socratic approach [I think that is the term for when you ask questions to teach a point].
Start with the verse:

2 Peter 3:9​

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

If "The Lord" was a little LESS "longsuffering" and returned in 1500 (instead of a Protestant reformation, there was 1000 years of "hell on earth"), would YOU and I be saved or perish without the Holy Spirit or Church in the world?

If "The Lord" was a little LESS "longsuffering" and returned after we were born but before we repented, would YOU and I be saved or perish?

Since the Lord did not return yet, has His "longsuffering to us-ward" (by not yet returning and ending sin) resulted in YOU and I coming to repentance?

Now that I have a more precise understanding of your question, I have attempted a more focused response.
You DID give the appearance of arguing for something else (and I was not alone in misinterpreting your question).