What if God, willing to. . . .

[Josheb]

The elect are all just as much sinners as everyone else, before salvation

Yes, but 2 Peter was written to the those already saved. It was not written to people who were not saved and needed to repent before being saved. It was not written to the unsaved elect.

.....so, the unsaved elect need to turn from sin to God and believe in Jesus Christ.

The elect will not perish, at least not salvifically. They will die physically, and then be raised. In our soteriology that is a fait accompli; something for which we have assurance and eternal security.


Therefore, either verse 2 Pet. 3:9 is a reference to God's desire about ALL His creatures, even those He will in fact destroy without regret when He metes out the just recompense for sin, or it refers to an eschatological perishing that does not in any way affect any of the elect's soteriological disposition. The saved are already saved! The verse is not soteriological. It does not matter whether a person is monergist or synergist, to use that verse soteriologically is eisegetic, not exegetic. In anticipation of the dissent, I tried to highlight the pending problems: It cannot be suggested God has only one desire, and it cannot be even remotely suggested the elect can salvifically perish without contradicting the perseverance of the saints. Despite preemptively noting the obstacles to be avoided.... the dissent committed them.

If God does not want the elect, those who have an assurance of salvation, to perish then that prospect of perishing is not soteriological. If the elect can perish stereologically then there is no assurance of salvation. The elect do not need to repent to become saved. They are already saved. They are not the unsaved elect.

I am loathe to wantonly hop from scripture to scripture as my dissenters have done. The conflation of pre-salvation, pre-Calvary, and or pre-Pentecost passages not written to or about the elect is prima facie bad exegesis. I'll let that bear witness to itself. What I am talking about can be found throughout the New Testament. The letters to the seven churches in Revelation, for example, repeatedly directed the Christins to be overcomers so they would not die. Except for the poseurs in those congregations their eternal disposition was already decided and assured. Their mortal disposition was what was at risk if they were not faithful. Jesus had overcome death on their behalf. They then needed to overcome the circumstances being in Christ would subsequently bring upon them. The ones who overcame their soon approaching temporal circumstances, "those faithful until death," would be given the crown of life (Rev. 2:7), the crown of life (Rev. 2:10). God was not reneging on His promise of eternal life. He most certainly was not asserting a synergist soteriology.

Galatians 6:7-8
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

The non-elect cannot sow to the Spirit. All they have is flesh, sinful flesh that cannot save. Those words were written to the elct. That is why Paul then said...

Galatians 6:9-10
Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.


I appreciate the effort, but Post #114 does not answer the question asked. You might want to peruse the thread so as to understand what prompted my inquiry and see how no one's yet answered the question correctly.


To what repentance would the elect, the already saved, need to come?



.

 

[makesends]

JIM said:
That thinking is the disaster that comes from the false doctrine of Original Sin. The only reason anyone stands condemned is because he, not Adam, has sinned. And the disaster of the heretical doctrine of Total Depravity is even worse.

“The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they have committed detestable acts; There is no one who does good.

The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of mankind To see if there are any who understand, Who seek God.

They have all turned aside, together they are corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.

Do all the workers of injustice not know, Who devour my people as they eat bread, And do not call upon the LORD?

There they are in great dread, For God is with a righteous generation.

You would put to shame the plan of the poor, But the LORD is his refuge.

Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When the LORD restores the fortunes of His people, Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad.”

(Psalm 14:1-7 NAS20)

Ephesians 2: "1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath."

 

[makesends]

Wow!
Friend, you are denying very important Christian truths.

Today's award for understatement goes to @Carbon !

 

[Arial]

To what repentance would the elect, the already saved, need to come?

Peter isn't saying the already saved need to come to repentance. He is saying the delay in the coming of the Day of the Lord, "slow to fulfill His promise" (what is being discussed) is is not slowness but patience with all those He has known (the elect) from before the foundation of the world---waiting for them to come to repentance. There is an exact number. They must all be born and all hear the voice of the Shepherd and follow Him.

It is a gathering of the flock. In Peter the patience concerns all those He is giving to Christ. In Romans 9 it is His long-suffering with the wicked until the flock is gathered.

 

[Josheb]

Peter isn't saying the already saved need to come to repentance. He is saying the delay in the coming of the Day of the Lord, "slow to fulfill His promise" (what is being discussed) is is not slowness but patience with all those He has known (the elect) from before the foundation of the world---waiting for them to come to repentance. There is an exact number. They must all be born and all hear the voice of the Shepherd and follow Him.

It is a gathering of the flock. In Peter the patience concerns all those He is giving to Christ. In Romans 9 it is His long-suffering with the wicked until the flock is gathered.

Don't tell me. Tell @atpollard and @David1701 (don't assume that wasn't my answer to the question, either).

The fact remains: the elect do not perish. Had Peter said, "God's waiting for the elect to eventually come to repentance," that would be one thing, but the moment he wrote, "not wishing for any to perish," his point became something entirely different. The arguments of dissent boil down to "God doesn't want those who cannot perish to perish." It's a circular argument. The part, "but for all to come to repentance," does not negate the implicit assertion those for whom God is waiting for repentance might perish. There's no need for God to not want them to perish if it's impossible for them to perish. There are only two options: either the patience applies to all people (as Calvin thought) or the patience, perishing, and repentance are eschatological (as those like Sproul thought). Either way, the verse is not the soteriological prooftext either side often imagines.

It might help everyone to remember the promises are not limited to blessings; God promised blessings for the obedience and curses for the disobedient and both sets occur within the exact same covenant relationship. The promised coming was going to be wrathful; the exact same Jesus who silently went to the cross like a lamb to the slaughter is coming back with a sword in his mouth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Peter perished . He perished but he did not perish. He was crucified upside down in mockery of Christ, in mockery of Peter's humility. His murder sometime before 68AD happened before the day of the Lord. God did not wish for any to die before then, but many did. Peter was one of them! This has always been one of the ironies of that verse. It might have been God's mercy because when the Romans marched through Israel they were in Rome and may have been conflated with the Jewish rebellion. It was that Jewish teacher, Jesus, who that sect called The Way were claiming was greater than Caesar and to whom Caesar would bow down. The Zealots had the temerity to kill Romans and take over Jerusalem like modern-day jihadists ushering in a new caliphate.

2 Peter 3:3-13
Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation." For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.


It's eschatological, not soteriological, and the patience applies to all (elect and non-elect). Which heavens and earth are being reserved? Is it the heavens and earth of Moses' day? The havens and earth f the 21st century? The heavens and earth a millennium of millennia from now? No, it was the present heavens and earth, the heavens and earth of the first century.

The passage is not soteriological; it's eschatological.

 

[JIM]

To what repentance do the elect, the already saved, need to come?.

I didn't think the elect in the sense of Calvinism were necessarily already saved. Sooner or later they would be saved. However, the elect who had yet to be regenerated were really incapable of repenting. However, I have never quite understood the Calvinist view of such things. Very little of it makes any sense to me at all.

Then there is the RCC view of things that says that even though one has been saved, it is really only the previous sins that are forgiven when one is saved and therefore subsequent sins must be acknowledged and repented of to be forgiven. Another major error within Christendom.

 

[JIM]

Ephesians 2: "1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath."

None of that has anything to do with Adam's disobedience.

 

[Mr GLee]

I didn't think the elect in the sense of Calvinism were necessarily already saved. Sooner or later they would be saved. However, the elect who had yet to be regenerated were really incapable of repenting. However, I have never quite understood the Calvinist view of such things. Very little of it makes any sense to me at all.

Names writen down from the foundation. Two books.

The six days Christ our husband did work . the lamb slain demonstrated during the three day and night propmised demonstration of that invisible work "let there be"

The key is understanding what and how the word repenting as comforting is used throughout.

 

[JIM]

Names writen down from the foundation. Two books.

The six days Christ our husband did work . the lamb slain demonstrated during the three day and night propmised demonstration of that invisible work "let there be"

The key is understanding what and how the word repenting as comforting is used throughout.

I didn't understand any of that. I probably don't need to.

 

[Mr GLee]

I didn't understand any of that. I probably don't need to.

And the books (two) were opened .Two is used to represent Christ has spoken.

Its not me you must believe

Do you have a bible?

Is it that you are not aware of the books or the lamb slain during the 6 days Christ did work? The old (let there be and it was God alone good )

 

[Josheb]

I didn't think the elect in the sense of Calvinism were necessarily already saved. Sooner or later they would be saved.

.....and NOT perish!

However, the elect who had yet to be regenerated were really incapable of repenting.

Then why would God wait patiently for them to do so?

However, I have never quite understood the Calvinist view of such things. Very little of it makes any sense to me at all.

I'd be happy to help you understand monergism (Calvinism) better because it is quite comprehendible and firmly and thoroughly couched in God's word. Ligonier Ministries (R. C. Sproul) and monergism.com are two excellent resources for understanding that theological pov.

 

[Ritajanice]

Ephesians 2: "1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath."

Amen!!

 

[atpollard]

Thanks, but they were dead in trespass prior to salvation(1), not afterwards, and there's no mention of repentance in that passage(2).

Three brief points:

1. The ELECT were ELECT before their salvation, so Ephesians 2 applies to the same ELECT as 2 Peter 3.
2. If you believe the "saved" of Ephesians 2:1-10 involved no "repentance" because the word is not mentioned, then YOU have serious doctrinal comprehension issues far beyond this meager topic.
3. I can explain it TO you, but I cannot understand it FOR you ... that is above my pay grade [ask God to open your eyes].

Good luck, you have chosen a hard row to hoe.

2 Peter 3:9 = the ELECT that will repent and be saved in the future [including people like US that had not yet been born, but were FOREKNOWN by God, predestined, justified in Christ, but would be called, would repent, and will be glorified] are the reason that God has delayed His return ... He would not loose us by coming before the full number have been gathered into the Family of God ... an exact number known to the OMNISCIENT Father from the Beginning of the beginning.

That's why.

 

[Ritajanice]

2 Peter 3:9 = the ELECT that will repent and be saved in the future [including people like US that had not yet been born, but were FOREKNOWN by God, predestined, justified in Christ, but would be called, would repent, and will be glorified] are the reason that God has delayed His return ... He would not loose us by coming before the full number have been gathered into the Family of God ... an exact number known to the OMNISCIENT Father from the Beginning of the beginning.

Am I understanding this right....we must repent before we become Born Again, ...of course we must repent, but, only God can bring us to repentance/ Godly sorrow....I wouldn’t have known how...if I’ve got it wrong, apologies.

 

[Arial]

Don't tell me. Tell @atpollard and @David1701 (don't assume that wasn't my answer to the question, either).

All I did was give an answer to the question YOU asked.

The fact remains: the elect do not perish.

Did anyone say or even suggest such a thing?

 

[Arial]

Am I understanding this right....we must repent before we become Born Again, ...of course we must repent, but, only God can bring us to repentance/ Godly sorrow....I wouldn’t have known how...if I’ve got it wrong, apologies.

Speaking for myself and not @atpollard ----though I think I am consistent with what he is saying: No we do not repent before we become born again, but because we have been born again. His post is referencing 2 Peter 3:9. The "all" God desires to come to repentance applies to all the elect, but not to those who he is writing to as the letter introduction shows he is writing to those who have already come to repentance. It is God's patience that is the reason for the delay in Christ's return. That is what is being discussed in the letter (and as an encouragement for them to stand firm in the faith amidst the persecution they were experiencing.)

God knows who He is giving to Jesus before they are ever born, and the number is fixed. Jesus will not return until the "last one comes through the door." Say amen here, because we were not born and would not be for thousands of years at the time Peter wrote the letter. The patience is God waiting for them to be born, to be called, to be regenerated and placed in Christ through faith. Come to repentance, i.e.hear the voice of the Shepherd and follow Him. The "delay" is a gathering of His flock.

 

[atpollard]

Am I understanding this right....we must repent before we become Born Again, ...of course we must repent, but, only God can bring us to repentance/ Godly sorrow....I wouldn’t have known how...if I’ve got it wrong, apologies.

I am not sure I know what "Born Again" means to you in this case.

As far as arguing or understanding the "ordo salutis" (order of salvation) ... who cares. Seriously, it is a human "logical" construct describing how GOD does things that only God can do. It is human presumption to think we "know" the mind of God. We know the FACTS that God has revealed to us, but our speculations are like the tale of the blind men describing an elephant.

So to answer what I know ... God FOREKNEW before the foundation of the world and God predestined those whom He foreknew. Two millennia ago, God came and shed His blood to redeem me (I will leave it to you to draw conclusions about you and anyone else). Sixty years ago, God placed His mark on me ... announcing that out of three cursed generations He would return to claim THIS infant [when atheist and a social catholic have an infant Baptized LUTHERAN, one has to suspect the hand of God is behind it]. Forty years ago, God snatched me out of the gang ... Road to Damascus style ... and informed me that effective immediately I belonged to HIM. Thirty years ago, I was sitting in church (Church of God of Anderson Indiana) and casually mentioned to the elder that I had never actually been Baptized as an adult because I was not "saved" in a church ... so the subject and opportunity never came up. They were horror stricken and I was baptized by immersion because it seemed the right thing to do.

So that is MY Ordo Salutis.

Salvation is ALL ABOUT GOD ... just like Ephesians 2:1-10 describes. It starts out with a PLAN in Ephesians 1, then we bring the SIN (Eph 2:1-4). ... BUT GOD ... brings the gift of salvation (Eph 2:5-9). Finally we are HIS WORKMANSHIP and can get about doing the "good work" that God pre-prepared for us to do (Eph 2:10).

 

[David1701]

Yes, but 2 Peter was written to the those already saved. It was not written to people who were not saved and needed to repent before being saved. It was not written to the unsaved elect.

2 Pet. 3:8 is addressed to the "beloved"; however, although only those who are saved will know that they are part of that group, it includes all the elect who are not saved yet. Not only that, but, "beloved" does not include the reprobates, who were described earlier in the passage and from whom verse 8 begins a contrast (hence the "But" at the start of the verse).

The elect will not perish, at least not salvifically. They will die physically, and then be raised. In our soteriology that is a fait accompli; something for which we have assurance and eternal security.

Amen.

Therefore, either verse 2 Pet. 3:9 is a reference to God's desire about ALL His creatures, even those He will in fact destroy without regret when He metes out the just recompense for sin, or it refers to an eschatological perishing that does not in any way affect any of the elect's soteriological disposition. The saved are already saved! The verse is not soteriological. It does not matter whether a person is monergist or synergist, to use that verse soteriologically is eisegetic, not exegetic. In anticipation of the dissent, I tried to highlight the pending problems: It cannot be suggested God has only one desire, and it cannot be even remotely suggested the elect can salvifically perish without contradicting the perseverance of the saints. Despite preemptively noting the obstacles to be avoided.... the dissent committed them.

To use 2 Pet. 3:9 soteriologically is sensible, right and exegetically correct. It is not remotely "eisegetic".

There is no suggestion that the elect can perish salvifically, only a promise that they will not, and part of the reason why they will not. God's planned certainties require the means to bring them about, which are also planned and certain.

If God does not want the elect, those who have an assurance of salvation, to perish then that prospect of perishing is not soteriological. If the elect can perish stereologically then there is no assurance of salvation. The elect do not need to repent to become saved. They are already saved. They are not the unsaved elect.

There are many of the elect who DO need to repent to become saved. These ones are not already saved and God has promised that they will come to repentance, because his long-suffering towards us (the elect) is salvation (verse 15).

I am loathe to wantonly hop from scripture to scripture as my dissenters have done. The conflation of pre-salvation, pre-Calvary, and or pre-Pentecost passages not written to or about the elect is prima facie bad exegesis. I'll let that bear witness to itself. What I am talking about can be found throughout the New Testament. The letters to the seven churches in Revelation, for example, repeatedly directed the Christins to be overcomers so they would not die. Except for the poseurs in those congregations their eternal disposition was already decided and assured. Their mortal disposition was what was at risk if they were not faithful. Jesus had overcome death on their behalf. They then needed to overcome the circumstances being in Christ would subsequently bring upon them. The ones who overcame their soon approaching temporal circumstances, "those faithful until death," would be given the crown of life (Rev. 2:7), the crown of life (Rev. 2:10). God was not reneging on His promise of eternal life. He most certainly was not asserting a synergist soteriology.

I do not recall anyone being directed to be an overcomer. I do recall promises to the overcomers (the Bible declares that everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world).

Galatians 6:7-8

Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

The non-elect cannot sow to the Spirit. All they have is flesh, sinful flesh that cannot save. Those words were written to the elct. That is why Paul then said...


Galatians 6:9-10

Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.



I appreciate the effort, but Post #114 does not answer the question asked. You might want to peruse the thread so as to understand what prompted my inquiry and see how no one's yet answered the question correctly.



To what repentance would the elect, the already saved, need to come?

Leading question much?

To what repentance would the as yet unsaved elect need to come?

The saved elect are already in a state of repentance (they have changed their minds about sin and God) and it would only be specific, named sins from which they would need to repent; but there aren't any mentioned in the passage in question.

You need to revisit your interpretation of 2 Pet. 3:9, including the preceding and subsequent immediate contexts.

 

[Alive]

Don't tell me. Tell @atpollard and @David1701 (don't assume that wasn't my answer to the question, either).

The fact remains: the elect do not perish. Had Peter said, "God's waiting for the elect to eventually come to repentance," that would be one thing, but the moment he wrote, "not wishing for any to perish," his point became something entirely different. The arguments of dissent boil down to "God doesn't want those who cannot perish to perish." It's a circular argument. The part, "but for all to come to repentance," does not negate the implicit assertion those for whom God is waiting for repentance might perish. There's no need for God to not want them to perish if it's impossible for them to perish. There are only two options: either the patience applies to all people (as Calvin thought) or the patience, perishing, and repentance are eschatological (as those like Sproul thought). Either way, the verse is not the soteriological prooftext either side often imagines.

It might help everyone to remember the promises are not limited to blessings; God promised blessings for the obedience and curses for the disobedient and both sets occur within the exact same covenant relationship. The promised coming was going to be wrathful; the exact same Jesus who silently went to the cross like a lamb to the slaughter is coming back with a sword in his mouth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Peter perished . He perished but he did not perish. He was crucified upside down in mockery of Christ, in mockery of Peter's humility. His murder sometime before 68AD happened before the day of the Lord. God did not wish for any to die before then, but many did. Peter was one of them! This has always been one of the ironies of that verse. It might have been God's mercy because when the Romans marched through Israel they were in Rome and may have been conflated with the Jewish rebellion. It was that Jewish teacher, Jesus, who that sect called The Way were claiming was greater than Caesar and to whom Caesar would bow down. The Zealots had the temerity to kill Romans and take over Jerusalem like modern-day jihadists ushering in a new caliphate.

2 Peter 3:3-13
Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation." For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.


It's eschatological, not soteriological, and the patience applies to all (elect and non-elect). Which heavens and earth are being reserved? Is it the heavens and earth of Moses' day? The havens and earth f the 21st century? The heavens and earth a millennium of millennia from now? No, it was the present heavens and earth, the heavens and earth of the first century.

The passage is not soteriological; it's eschatological.

I thought I would look this up in my copy I have in Accordance (Calvin's Commentary). Of 2 Peter 3:9
Not willing that any should perish. So wonderful is his love towards mankind, that he would have them all to be saved, and is of his own self prepared to bestow salvation on the lost. But the order is to be noticed, that God is ready to receive all to repentance, so that none may perish; for in these words the way and manner of obtaining salvation is pointed out. Every one of us, therefore, who is desirous of salvation, must learn to enter in by this way.

But it may be asked, If God wishes none to perish, why is it that so many do perish? To this my answer is, that no mention is here made of the hidden purpose of God, according to which the reprobate are doomed to their own ruin, but only of his will as made known to us in the gospel. For God there stretches forth his hand without a difference to all, but lays hold only of those, to lead them to himself, whom he has chosen before the foundation of the world. 35

 

[David1701]

Don't tell me. Tell @atpollard and @David1701 (don't assume that wasn't my answer to the question, either).

...

What? I agree with what Arial posted; but it CONTRADICTS what you posted. I'm staggered that you think otherwise.