Free Willers and 2 Peter 3:9

[Josheb]

.

The goal of Satan deceive dying mankind Christ our husband is a Jewish King of kings.

You must take care and use proper English if you wish to be understood. That string of words does not form a proper sentence, so it reads nonsensical. If what you mean to say is that Satan's goal is to deceive humanity, then that is not a point in dispute. If you mean to say Jesus was Jewish, then that too is not a point in dispute. All you've done is inject two points that aren't in dispute and have nothing to do with this discussion. We're discussing the agency of "free will" relevant to 2 Peter 3:9 and NOT Satan's goal or Jesus kingship.

Satan is, himself dead in sin, and enslaved to sin. Any "goal" he might have is, likewise, sinful and occurs solely at the discretion of his Creator, and it serves on the Creator's purpose. Satan is no more free than any other sinner, human or otherwise. Satan is himself deceived. When Satan deceives a sinner then Satan is deceiving the already-deceived. He's accomplished nothing. Tose people were already dead and on their way to destruction. The only way out is by grace through faith and the entire by-grace-through-faith construct is a gift of God, not of ourselves. We are created in Christ to do good works....... using our brain, and our hands, and our mouths, and our eyes and ears and all the other parts of the body that still remains made of flesh.

Furthermore, there has never been a time when Jesus was not King of all kings. His Kingship is not a before-and-after condition. If Jesus is God, if Jesus is the power of God through whom, by whom, for whom the world was created, the foreknown logos of God that was with God in the beginning that is God, then there has never been a fraction of a nanosecond when he was not King, and King of all kings. The fact that he entered creation laying aside all claim of equality with God did not stop him from being King. His taking on the role of bondservant did not preclude him from being King. The two are not mutually exclusive conditions and Jesus is both, King and bondservant. His Jewishness is temporal and, ironically, a matter of the sinful flesh, a matter that conflicts with your own posts since we're not supposed to know him according to the flesh.

Romans 9:22-26 ESV
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

Paul's words apply to the heavenly host just as much as they apply to the earthly host. Every single angel and demon is still a created creature, a product of "clay" molded by the hands of God according to His will and His purpose and His alone. Jesus is King over everyone, Jew or Gentile, human or heavenly.

The 20/20 prescription (2 Corinthians 4:18) needed to rightly divide the parables. They must be applied or again no gospel rest

Ugh!

No one could read those words if they weren't visible. When scripture uses the word "invisible," it does not mean the invisible thing has no mass. It means the object is not visible from our (disad-)vantage point here on earth. When Elisha asks God to open his servant's eyes and God reveals to that servant the legions angels surrounding them, we instantly learn to very real truths: 1) angels are visible and they can be seen, 2) but not unless and until they are revealed to us. The same truth runs through every appearance of messengers from God in the Bible. The resurrected Jesus is both visible and not-visible, but he is not invisible. He has flesh and bone. When scripture says no one can look upon God and live that would be a completely nonsensical statement if it is impossible to look upon God. God is visible; He is just not visible from your vantage point sitting in front of your computer.

1 John 3:2 ESV
Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

We could never see him if he is invisible.

The 20/20 prescription (2 Corinthians 4:18) needed to rightly divide the parables. They must be applied or again no gospel rest

You should try it sometime because the exegesis employed in these posts is severely lacking. Individual verses are removed from their texts and contexts and spliced together wantonly. Scriptures are made to contradict one another. The meanings and conclusions drawn fro the misguided use of scripture i self-contradictory and where it's not self-contradictory it contradicts whole scripture.

And most of it is off topic (and therefore a red herring).

This all started because of something posted in Post #2.

They perish according to thier own will in bandage to sin.

If they are in bondage to sin, then they have already perished. The statement is circular and thereby meaningless. Those bound to sin perish according to their own will bound in sin. To be bound in sin is to be dead in sin. Their will is not free (despite the synergist protest to the contrary).

It is true that Adam was good and sinless when he disobeyed God at Genesis 3:7 but since then sin has entered the world and brought with it transgressional death to all such that no one is good or sinless. All will sin. It is true God did not force anyone to sin, but no one apart from the pre-disobedience Adam and Eve were free to sin. All of their progeny is bound by sin to sin. There is no escape from that condition other than Jesus and the only way to obtain that way out is by grace through faith, being created in Christ, and that is not of ourselves. It is the gift of God. Every sinner perishes because God decided the product of sin would be destroyed, and He decided that knowing all the good and sinless creatures He'd made would sin and fall short of His glory..... even though He also desired none would do so. The two desires of God asserted in this op are not mutually exclusive of one another. The same holds true for the will of God and the will of the sinner. Those are two separate and distinct will, but human will has limitations. One of them is God, and the other is sin. No human can ever usurp God's will and no sinner can ever overthrow sin in his/her own might. The former is an absolute. The latter is a function of the God's design. The latter is a function of the former .

 

[Mr GLee]

Furthermore, you're making a circular, nonsensical argument. You just said Christ is the power that worked in Jesus, or Christ is the power that worked in the Christ . Now maybe that last part is a typo, or the product of using a cellphone, but what it says is Jesus is the dying rudiment of the world. That's crazy .

Hi Thanks I would offer

Remember what God calls one. . the spirit of lies two or many. Or what God calls two he calls one turning things upside down earthly inspired after dying flesh

Two usages of the word savior (Jesus or Joshua). One as the Son of man, dying mankind . And two Christ meaning the anointing teaching the Holy Spirit of the Father . The one good teaching master as Lord of earthly lords . Two saviors working as one. . . temporal dying mankind used to demonstrate the invisible eternal power of the Father

Two the one witness our invisible God has spoken .The original dynamic dual .

Mark 10:17-18King James Version And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Faith the mystery word?

 

[Mr GLee]

Ugh!

No one could read those words if they weren't visible. When scripture uses the word "invisible," it does not mean the invisible thing has no mass. It means the object is not visible from our (disad-)vantage point here on earth. When Elisha asks God to open his servant's eyes and God reveals to that servant the legions angels surrounding them, we instantly learn to very real truths: 1) angels are visible and they can be seen, 2) but not unless and until they are revealed to us. The same truth runs through every appearance of messengers from God in the Bible. The resurrected Jesus is both visible and not-visible, but he is not invisible. He has flesh and bone. When scripture says no one can look upon God and live that would be a completely nonsensical statement if it is impossible to look upon God. God is visible; He is just not visible from your vantage point sitting in front of your computer.

1 John 3:2 ESV
Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

We could never see him if he is invisible.

Thanks, sorry for the poor English writing skills . Dropped out. . I had no interest in writing until I heard the gospel years ago. 50 or so .

Dynamic duals Comics my source of literature. Lone Ranger .. Tonto my superhero LOL .

Two working as one the witness of God. . . the Elohim Genesis 1:26

I would agree shadows of a sufferings savior have no literal mass as rudiments needed to see our savior face to face (faith to faith) in the eternal knowledge wisdom of God as it is written by his finger as a will . . . not the face of dying mankind to the face of dying mankind .

2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ

Every person has a different face idea. . Sort of like a Police forensic officer as a sketch Artist, like finger prints differences. Two walking together as one.

Christ said there must be differences as heresies .The invisible kingdom working on earth does not come by the eyes sees . . rather than what his living words. . face (knowledge) to face (knowledge) say

The wrath would seem to come from that ideology worshipping the rudiment of this world. The dying powerless flesh of the Son of man above that of the invisible Holy Father glorious God

Romans 1: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature (Son of man) more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

In that way face to face or faith to faith is used throughout

Interesting study the doctrine of face to face

Exodus 33:11 And the Lord (invisible God) spake unto Moses face (word) to face, (word) as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

Genesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserv

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (Christ not of our own, faithless )

 

[Josheb]

Two usages of the word savior (Jesus or Joshua). One as the Son of man, dying mankind .

No.

Or rather, not quite. The "dying mankind" that is Jesus is not dying due to his sin. When the word was made flesh, he was not made in the form of sinful flesh, but that of sinless flesh. He's the "last Adam," the last person born without sin, born without ever going to sin, born to be murdered while sinless, the perfect sacrifice, the life-giving Spirit.

 

[Josheb]

Thanks, sorry for the poor English writing skills . Dropped out. . I had no interest in writing until I heard the gospel years ago. 50 or so .

No harm no foul. We must all be as articulate as we can be if we hope to be correctly understood.

I would agree shadows of a sufferings savior have no literal mass as rudiments needed to see our savior face to face (faith to faith) in the eternal knowledge wisdom of God as it is written by his finger as a will . . . not the face of dying mankind to the face of dying mankind .

I am making the exact opposite argument. God, Jesus, angels all have mass. They are visible. They are just not visible from here on earth under earthly conditions. Because of the limits here, they are invisible.

2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ

Every person has a different face idea.

What is a "face idea"?

I do nt have a face idea. Where would I go to get a face idea?

 

[Josheb]

The wrath would seem to come from that ideology worshipping the rudiment of this world.

No, it comes from sin. Sin is not an original part of this world The world God made was good and sinless. Sin entered the world through one man's disobedience. In terms of "rudiments" or "elements" sin is an added rudiment or element, and it's more accurate to understand it as a rudiment of worldliness, not the world; of sinful worldliness in sinful world, and not an element of God's design. Sin is the antithesis, not the thesis.

The dying powerless flesh of the Son of man above that of the invisible Holy Father glorious God

The Son of Man does not have dying flesh the same way we do. Jesus is the resurrection and the life and there has never been a moment in creation when he wasn't. God could have seen fit to have Jesus murdered by Herod when Jesus was 1 or 2 years old. Jesus would have been resurrected as an infant. Because Jesus has none of the corrupting effects of sin within him, he might have lived hundreds, maybe thousands of years like the ancients of old lived hundreds of years in the early days of sin's corrupting, lethal effect. Jesus does not have that problem. Had he lived 25,001 years and died, he still would have been raised from the dead. There is no sin to keep him there and the grave has no power over him.

You have to stop conflating "dying mankind" with Jesus in all ways. The only reason Jesus the human is dying is because it has been appointed for man to die once and then face judgment. Jesus is the judge Jesus faces and his judgment will find no fault warranting his death.

Romans 1: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature (Son of man) more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

In that way face to face or faith to faith is used throughout

Interesting study the doctrine of face to face

Exodus 33:11 And the Lord (invisible God) spake unto Moses face (word) to face, (word) as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

Genesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserv

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (Christ not of our own, faithless )

Yeah, I'm gonna stop here because all of these passages are being misused and if I correct every single one of them then I'll end up far afield of this op.


The salient point of this digression is that those who chose to sin were already dispositionally sinful, and God can have multiple co-existing desires, including His desire that none would sin and His desire to destroy sin in all its manifestations.

 

[Mr GLee]

I am making the exact opposite argument. God, Jesus, angels all have mass. They are visible. They are just not visible from here on earth under earthly conditions. Because of the limits here, they are invisible.

Hi thanks ..

Shadows are used to represent the invisible things of God, things of faith the hidden spiritual gospel understanding it must be mixed with the temporal historical the signified understand as a figure of speech .no mix no gospel rest (Hebrew 4:1-2) He teaches us how. . . freely giving us his prescription below needed to rightfully divide so that we can seek his approval .

2 Corinthians 4: 18 While we look not at the things (of dying men) which are seen, but at the things (of eternal God) which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal (of dying men) but the things (of God) which are not seen are eternal.

Valuable study tool. I would think do not study without its light

I have a different idea when it comes to the word "angel" and how it is used .and why I think it is misused.

 

[Josheb]

Hi thanks ..

Shadows are used to represent the invisible things of God, things of faith the hidden spiritual gospel understanding it must be mixed with the temporal historical the signified understand as a figure of speech .no mix no gospel rest (Hebrew 4:1-2) He teaches us how. . . freely giving us his prescription below needed to rightfully divide so that we can seek his approval .

2 Corinthians 4: 18 While we look not at the things (of dying men) which are seen, but at the things (of eternal God) which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal (of dying men) but the things (of God) which are not seen are eternal.

Valuable study tool. I would think do not study without its light

I have a different idea when it comes to the word "angel" and how it is used .and why I think it is misused.

The salient point is that these things are not invisible in the sense they can never be seen. They are invisible only in the sense they cannot always be seen from earth by earthly means. Shadows are visible.

 

[Mr GLee]

The salient point is that these things are not invisible in the sense they can never be seen. They are invisible only in the sense they cannot always be seen from earth by earthly means. Shadows are visible.

Do we need dead things seen to believe there is a God? It would seem Lucifer the false light believed so. . look at my Ssss beauty and live forever . . . the fall of mankind

Shadows represent the unseen, when they disappear then appears the unseen Spirit that works in believer to both reveal the unseen will and empower them to do it to the good pleasure of the unseen father. . . Christ the husband. (Philippians 2:13-14)

Like fictional Peters Pan's the shadow imagination or vision inspired by of the author . revealing his creative "let there be " mind

Jesus did the will of the father with delight unlike Jonah kicking against the pricks the letter of the law "death"

1 Peter is used to show an example or commentary on the uses shadows used in all the ceremonial laws as signs to all the nations of the world of good thing to come. Not a sign not themselves.

The promised demonstration of the invisible things of Christ .the sufferings before hand

Note. = faith living power not seen

Note . . .Blue . .my added comment

Peter1: 7-11 That the trial of your (new) faith,(Christ's labor of love working in you with you) being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your (new) faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time(first cenutry reformation ) the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory (cross)that should follow.

We can look back to spirit mutual faith of Christ working in them just as they empowered looked ahead . Believers walk or understand by the invisible thing of God . . His faithful glorious witness.

 

[brightfame52]

Why do you use, -...... The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9. - ....... to teach God is not willing that any should perish,

when, - .....What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: Romans 9:22. - ...... declares God is willing for reprobates to perish.

Which one is it?

Its both. 2 Pet 3:9 is referring to the elect, the vessels of mercy, Christ has purchased their repentance for them to experience in their lifetime Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

So God isnt willing that any of them should perish, but come to repentance which Christ gives them,

The ones in Rom 9:22 are the non elect vessels of mercy whom God is justly preparing, fitting them for destruction, Christ isnt their Saviour, God never gave them to Christ to save.

 

[Mr GLee]

No.

Or rather, not quite. The "dying mankind" that is Jesus is not dying due to his sin. When the word was made flesh, he was not made in the form of sinful flesh, but that of sinless flesh. He's the "last Adam," the last person born without sin, born without ever going to sin, born to be murdered while sinless, the perfect sacrifice, the life-giving Spirit.

I would think .No such things as sinful aging dying flesh .Jesus said his aging dying flesh profits for nothing. Peter did not say; "to whom" can we go you have eternal flesh and blood ..

God is not a man as was Jesus the Son of man. Marvel not Jesus was born again as the first of sons of God

John 6:63-68 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.


The "let there be" flesh and blood words and he breathed in new born again life

 

[Josheb]

I would think .No such things as sinful aging dying flesh .Jesus said his aging dying flesh profits for nothing. Peter did not say; "to whom" can we go you have eternal flesh and blood ..

God is not a man as was Jesus the Son of man. Marvel not Jesus was born again as the first of sons of God

John 6:63-68 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.


The "let there be" flesh and blood words and he breathed in new born again life

Do you believe in the divinity of Christ?

 

[Mr GLee]

Do you believe in the divinity of Christ?

Hi Thanks. I would offer. .

Divinity "to shine," to reveal, inspired of Christ.

Christ meaning "anointing good teacher master" the Holy Spirit. .

Divinity is attributed the Christ the unseen Husband .Not the Son of man, Jesus temporal dying mankind . Needed. . . designed to reveal the invisible Fathers labor of love that works in believers.

There must be heresies differences in interptation among believers like fingerprint (two walking as one ).as long as they do not do despite to the fullness of grace the whole cost of salvation.

Teaching our private interpretations are divine personal commentaries as the final authroity in matter of faith (invisible spiritual things) .I would think that tradition does despite the fullness of grace as it is writen by the finger(will) of God

80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."

2 Peter 1:20-21King James Version : Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

In that way Christians care for the eternal unseen things (faith) as that which defends us . Putting on the Devine Armor and keeping it on

​

 

[Josheb]

Do you believe in the divinity of Christ?

Divinity is attributed the Christ the unseen Husband .Not the Son of man, Jesus temporal dying mankind .

So your answer to the question asked is, "No, Christ is not divine, but divinity is attributed to him." Is that correct? Let me ask the question in a different way.


Is Jesus divine (like God or God)?


And remind me again to what theological/religious point of view do you subscribe?

 

[Mr GLee]

So your answer to the question asked is, "No, Christ is not divine, but divinity is attributed to him." Is that correct? Let me ask the question in a different way.


Is Jesus divine (like God or God)?


And remind me again to what theological/religious point of view do you subscribe?

Hi Thanks

No. . Christ the anointing teaching Holy Father alone is Devine.

The Son of man, Jesus dying aging mankind. . . . . is not Devine.

 

[Josheb]

Hi Thanks

No. . Christ the anointing teaching Holy Father alone is Devine.

The Son of man, Jesus dying aging mankind. . . . . is not Devine.

Thank you for that forthcoming answer.

The question about your theological/religious affiliation was not answered. I recently read where you were incorrectly judged as universalist. I know we've discussed this before, but I forgot. What are you?

 

[Mr GLee]

Thank you for that forthcoming answer.

The question about your theological/religious affiliation was not answered. I recently read where you were incorrectly judged as universalist. I know we've discussed this before, but I forgot. What are you?

Thanks .

As a resident of the city of Christ I am a Christian. . giving meaning to the demonym residents identified by location . The new name the Father as Christ named his bride in Acts

I heard the gospel call in a denomination as one of many that claims "non-denomination". Called the Plymouth Brethren (close to a Baptist) With a different kind of breaking of bread and tithe offering ceremony a separate hour from the teaching hour as a sign to the world .

I attended approx. 25 years .

Certain differences which there must be. It became difficult to study with them. I began to feel misunderstood and it was better to leave then try and change their good gospel format .

Ultimately two or three. . . a family gathering together under the hearing of the gospel (sola scriptura). Emanuel is there working , teaching, guiding, comforting and brings to our memory the former things he has taught. . . a family or tribe a new denomination.

My main disagreements with many is the use of parables, the figurative speech or prophecy . Its understanding as use to aid in teaching how to walk by faith the invisible things of God.it like fingerprints can change from one private interpretation or another. Depending how deep or thorough.

Not a salvation issue more of how can I hear the gospel understanding mixed with the temporal historical. The honey of the word called hidden Manna in Rev 2:17

The what I call the 20/20 prescription needed to rightly divide it must be applied ,mixed or no gospel rest

18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal

 

[Carbon]

Thank you for that forthcoming answer.

Yes, that seems kinda new. Usually, many just ignore those questions.

The question about your theological/religious affiliation was not answered. I recently read where you were incorrectly judged as universalist. I know we've discussed this before, but I forgot. What are you?

 

[Carbon]

Its both. 2 Pet 3:9 is referring to the elect, the vessels of mercy, Christ has purchased their repentance for them to experience in their lifetime Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

So God isnt willing that any of them should perish, but come to repentance which Christ gives them,

The ones in Rom 9:22 are the non elect vessels of mercy whom God is justly preparing, fitting them for destruction, Christ isnt their Saviour, God never gave them to Christ to save.

Agreed.

 

[Carbon]

The will of God is that not all shall perish, as many as the powerful father gave to the Son will come to the father . He does not will any to perish .

This is where a Plymouth Brethren can sound almost reformed.

They perish according to thier own will in bandage to sin.

Your right about one thing, they want nothing to do with God.