Water Baptism

[Arial]

Grace is the gospel call God sent out.

Grace is not the gospel call. It is grace that there is a gospel call. The gospel is the gospel call.

 

[Arial]

The gospel has to be obeyed so yes there is something one has to do he has to obey the gospel. The response in which one is to obey the gospel is given In Acts 2:38 .

Read the whole book particularly 10 vs 43 and your whole doctrine becomes sinking sand. Everyone who believed received the Holy Spirit with evidence and then were baptized. Baptism is not the gospel. The gospel is the gospel.

 

[BillyBob65]

As I said before, I am not disputing that the baptismal rite is of water. Why are you changing the subject to a straw man?

I am not trying to change the subject to a straw man? I am just trying to determine if the baptism in Romans six is talking about the water baptism in the name of Christ (Acts 2:38 ) as scripture indicate or if something else as you try to say.

It was a baptism in which they submitted to so just as most conversion examples given in the new testament from Acts forward end in the baptism in Christ name (Acts 2:38 ) it would follow that that is what Paul is describing the details of what the baptism is doing (not the water but God doing his transforming in this event) so it is not not just a symbol but what God is actually doing.

That is why we read baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is for the remission of sin not because but for just as God chose to say if he meant because of he would have said that.
It is why we read it is in baptism that we put on Christ. Just as Romans 6 explained.
It is why Paul was told to arise an be baptized to wash away his sin. Just as Acts 2:38 and Romans 6 says.
It is why Paul re-baptized the people of Acts 19 so they could receive the indwelling spirit just as Romans 6 describes.
The bible tells just why the baptism in Acts 2:38 is commanded and the effects. All one has to do is follow the direction of Gods word to see this. Some try to deny it and repurposed it but they will get their just reward. We are warned heavily to not be swayed by these false prophets.

 

[BillyBob65]

Giving a scripture isolated from ALL contexts in order to make the Bible say what you want or think it does say is misuse of the Bible. Everything has a context, and a scripture quote finds its meaning within that context, with many elements involved in that context. And the Bible, as the very word of God, never presents contradicting "truths". You need to learn the correct and profitable way to read and study the Bible. The Bible does not have to say "You are saved by faith alone" in order to teach that we are saved by faith alone.

Are you Catholic?

No not Catholic but thanks for asking.
I am not giving scriptures isolated from All contexts I am giving topical study of an aspect. I am putting all the scriptures dealing with baptism a study to fully understand what the bible says about the subject. To many a man has corrupted the scripture teaching on baptism so I go to the word and study just what the scriptures reveal on this subject.

I don't need to study belief believe faith because all Christendom has that figured out that you must believe have faith and all also agree that one has to repent no one argues that same as one must confess that Christ is the son of God again no one argues that but when it comes to baptism everyone is all over the place and no one seems to agree with what is clearly recorded for all to read. So I searching the scriptures to see what God had recorded in his words not mans thoughts.

I see that unlike what some tells me that the scriptures say ghat I must have faith i must repent I must confess Christ and I must be baptized for the remission of sin to receive the indwelling spirit. Not one can be left out or my faith is not completely aligned with Gods word. I have to trust in all his word not just what fancies my liking.

 

[BillyBob65]

Works is not a study in itself. Works are whatever we do of our own volition. Obeying a command is a work.

There are different references to works in the bible. There are good works of a Christian which you are correct do not gain salvation but show salvation.
There are many references to works of the old law in which you had to keep all but no one could. These are the works that Paul frequently references.

When talking about works you have to distinguish which is in view.

If obeying a command is a work then Faith is a work for we are commanded to have faith. We are commanded to repent. We are commanded to confess Christ before man. If these are not works but the command to be baptized in Christ name is why?

 

[Arial]

I am not giving scriptures isolated from All contexts I am giving topical study of an aspect. I am putting all the scriptures dealing with baptism a study to fully understand what the bible says about the subject. To many a man has corrupted the scripture teaching on baptism so I go to the word and study just what the scriptures reveal on this subject.

The scriptures still have to be interpreted through the context they are in---surrounding texts---and the full counsel of God on the same subject. So, if you topically study baptism, and in doing so conclude that baptism saves, then you also have to surrender obedience to what it says about how we are saved and by whom. The topic to study alongside of it would be soteriology---how we are saved. And Scripture says over and over that we are saved through faith. Otherwise, you reach a conclusion with only half the information.

It is you who pointed out in an earlier post that we need to study all of Scripture to find meaning. So why aren't you doing that? And why do you not consider as important what others show you from scripture that makes your premature conclusion incorrect? A topical study on one subject and only using the few words of single scriptures that a topical Bible will give, is isolated from ALL contexts.

I don't need to study belief believe faith because all Christendom has that figured out that you must believe have faith

I consider that is where a period should have gone. As I will do with the rest of that quote. There is more to faith than just knowing one needs it. And you evidently do need to study it because you have not yet realized the difference between faith and works.

and all also agree that one has to repent

And many who know one must repent don't really know what repentance is in the biblical sense and pertaining to salvation. Do you? You seem to think repentance comes before belief and that it does nothing until one is water baptized. That is not at all what the Bible teaches, so there is a great deal that you need to study even though "everyone knows" these things so you just have to follow along is the attitude I am seeing.

no one argues that same as one must confess that Christ is the son of God

A great many people do and call themselves Christian since to confess that Christ is the Son of God is to confess his deity. Did you know that last part? But the question to this, the above, and all the other things you don't need to study because everyone knows them; can you articulate any of it and demonstrate it from Scripture. IOW articulate what you believe and why you believe it---besides "everyone knows that"?

when it comes to baptism everyone is all over the place and no one seems to agree with what is clearly recorded for all to read. So I searching the scriptures to see what God had recorded in his words not mans thoughts.

But you aren't searching the scriptures. You just told me you were only doing a t.opical search on baptism. Searching the scriptures means to search all the scriptures on every aspect connected to baptism and salvation in this case. And make sure there is nothing contradictory. And also---make sure nothing contradicts the self-revealed God.

I see that unlike what some tells me that the scriptures say ghat I must have faith i must repent I must confess Christ and I must be baptized for the remission of sin to receive the indwelling spirit.

That contradicts John 3. And it contradicts Acts 2:43-48. It contradicts Eph 2:8-9 and John 1:12-13. It contradicts a whole host of other scriptures.

 

[Arial]

I am not trying to change the subject to a straw man? I am just trying to determine if the baptism in Romans six is talking about the water baptism in the name of Christ (Acts 2:38 ) as scripture indicate or if something else as you try to say.

I don't think saying you are "trying" to determine if the baptism in Romans 6 is talking about water baptism is correct. You have already made up your mind, already determined that it means what you say, and are impervious to anything said about it that does not agree.

The rite of baptism (sacrament) is always with water. That is not the issue concerning Rom 6.

It was a baptism in which they submitted to so just as most conversion examples given in the new testament from Acts forward end in the baptism in Christ name (Acts 2:38 ) it would follow that that is what Paul is describing the details of what the baptism is doing (not the water but God doing his transforming in this event) so it is not not just a symbol but what God is actually doing.

When you post that in a readable, understandable form I will respond.

The bible tells just why the baptism in Acts 2:38 is commanded and the effects. All one has to do is follow the direction of Gods word to see this. Some try to deny it and repurposed it but they will get their just reward. We are warned heavily to not be swayed by these false prophets.

Acts 2:43-58 says differently and corrects your misunderstanding. Same chapter. Part of the context.

 

[Arial]

There are different references to works in the bible. There are good works of a Christian which you are correct do not gain salvation but show salvation.
There are many references to works of the old law in which you had to keep all but no one could. These are the works that Paul frequently references.

When talking about works you have to distinguish which is in view.

If obeying a command is a work then Faith is a work for we are commanded to have faith. We are commanded to repent. We are commanded to confess Christ before man. If these are not works but the command to be baptized in Christ name is why?

The fact that Scripture states that salvation is by grace removes any possibility of any type of work, even if it is obeying a command. warrants salvation. That is why it says salvation is through faith and not of works lest anyone should boast. Do you not see the point? It is very, very important. Salvation is of God alone every last speck of it, no contribution no matter how small or large contributes to that salvation. Grace!!! Say thank you.

 

[BillyBob65]

Which came first? Repenting or being baptized? And as I showed you and you ignored: Eis aphesin hamartion {"for the forgiveness of your sins") can mean "because of" or "with reference to". It does not have to mean "in order to obtain."

So, we must look to the scriptures to find our answer. Right?
Acts 2:43 43To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” No baptism first. If one repents it is because one believes (logic).Which came first? Repenting or being baptized? Repenting or being baptized

And look at this from the very same chapter vs. 44-48

While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47“Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

Which came first? Your turn. Also, all who were in the crown who believed did evidence the Holy Spirit contrary to your earlier claim that it was only the apostles.

To answer the first question of which came first Repenting or being baptized the bible shows it as both happening at the same time. One cant stand alone. If you repent and not follow through with baptism have you really repented and if you submit to baptism and not repent it did you no good for they go hand in hand you cant scripturally do one with out the other.

And as I showed you and you ignored: Eis aphesin hamartion {"for the forgiveness of your sins") can mean "because of" or with reference to". It does not have to mean "in order to obtain".
So, we must look to the scriptures to find our answer. Right?

Yes Lets look to scripture to see how scripture indicates the meaning.
First I point to Romans six it says there yes sin was taken away in baptism and the new life began which confirms that in Acts 2:38 it was "in order to obtain." not "because of" or with reference to".
Now lets look at Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
It looks real convincing that in Acts 2:38 the intended meaning was to obtain see scripture explains itself There are more but that should be enough to clarify this if we let the scriptures do the talking.

Acts 2:43 43To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” No baptism first. If one repents it is because one believes (logic).Which came first? Repenting or being baptized? Repenting or being baptized

First off Acts 2:43 does not say that is says Acts 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
I believe you were trying to say Acts 10:43. Already dealt with this and this is another study in and of itself as to the happening of this chapter for it is unique to all others for it is where God brings the gentiles into the kingdom. It is a good chapter to study and show it does indeed validate Acts 2:38 but it takes a lot of space to go through do you want to go through what is happening here?

Which came first? Your turn. Also, all who were in the crown who believed did evidence the Holy Spirit contrary to your earlier claim that it was only the apostles.

Okay here is the deal. I can tell from your posting you have this chapter all wrong it will take a lengthy response to dissect this chapter and we can if you wish nut for now I will give a brief answer.

This chapter is the second fulfillment of Joel's prophecy as to the Jews first and then the gentiles. God sent Peter to preach the same gospel to the gentiles as was preached to the Jews. God understood that the Jews would not understand so he sent signs to the Jews not the gentiles. He poured out the spirit on the gentile just as he did on the Apostles at Pentecost to show this was his will. Peter preached the same gospel as he ever did and it ended with baptism just as at Pentecost.

The outpouring was the spirit upon the gentiles not the indwelling spirit and was meant as a sign to the Jews that God was adding the gentiles to the kingdom but as you see They still had to be baptized in the name of Christ just as everyone before them to receive the indwelling spirit.

That is the short explanation we can go into great detail if you want.

 

[BillyBob65]

The grace of God is not a thing. It is grace that he saves anyone and grace that he did not destroy us all by destroying Adam and Eve or at any other time, and grace that he condescends to come as one of us in the flesh, suffer and die in our place in the flesh, taking upon himself the penalty for the sins of those who believe. Grace that he gives the faith that is necessary for salvation Eph 2
8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Yes Grace is his mercy but even at that he has a calling that must be obeyed. There is something that sets us apart from the world. We have to accept that grace he has freely offered or we don't get to enjoy this free gift he has given the terms in which he will extend this grace it is by faith in his gospel for the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Salvation is not universal it must be grasped.

 

[BillyBob65]

You have defined saving grace incorrectly, so this is a bucket with holes in it. And show me where in scripture are the explicit words. "Baptism is the vessel in which God has chosen to do the transforming work of changing a sinful man into a spiritual man and that that is the new birth." How do you like them apples? So, ok, show me where it implies it and exegete whatever "proof text" you choose to do so from within its full context.

First off Baptism is the vessel in which God has chosen to do the transforming work of changing a sinful man into a spiritual man and that that is the new birth." How do you like them apples? Okay fair enough got me on that one bravo.
Now to answer you question. I can only point you to the text of Romans 6 the whole chapter brings this out .
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?as were baptized where do we see them being baptized all through Acts they are being baptized in water in the name of Jesus Christ following hearing and believing the gospel this is the normal response so it must be talking about the baptism in Christ name (Acts 2:38 and why the are baptized into his death. They are joining him at the cross.
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. see here is the connection to John 3:3ff it is a new birth born again. we are buried with him by baptism (water) into death (putting away the sinful life) and like Christ was raised from the dead by the works of the Farther we to are raise into newness of life (born again born anew through water and spirit)
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin
thriugh baptism as seen in verese 3 we were crucified with Christ done away with sin sin was remitted in the baptism just as told it would be in Zcts 2:38
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
See now we are alive in Christ been given the new life in spirit (born again new birth) we Have put on Christ in baptism just as we were told we would receive the indwelling spirit.
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
see baptism took away our sin and made us alive in the spirit (new birth) it is Gods grace.
15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
notice the wording not under the law (works of the law) but under grace (new covenant)
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
So the question remains are we going to be servants to sin or obedience unto righteousness? Are we going to obey the gospel call and be baptized in the name of Christ and have all this chapter applies to us or? As this chapter points out Acts 2:38 is real and does mean that the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is as stated for the remission of sin and the giving of the indwelling spirit. We can disagree with what is written but it will be our lose for Gods words are truth and life we must accept what was recorded for us to have life everlasting with God.

 

[BillyBob65]

Grace is not the gospel call. It is grace that there is a gospel call. The gospel is the gospel call.

yes that I agree better wording than mine but the same meaning

 

[BillyBob65]

Read the whole chapter particularly vs 43 to the end and your whole doctrine becomes sinking sand. Everyone who believed received the Holy Spirit with evidence and then were baptized. Baptism is not the gospel. The gospel is the gospeel.

Acts 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Sorry don't see what you are asking. Baptism is the response the gospel call for.

 

[BillyBob65]

The fact that Scripture states that salvation is by grace removes any possibility of any type of work, even if it is obeying a command. warrants salvation. That is why it says salvation is through faith and not of works lest anyone should boast. Do you not see the point? It is very, very important. Salvation is of God alone every last speck of it, no contribution no matter how small or large contributes to that salvation. Grace!!! Say thank you.

Are you spouting universal salvation or is there something one has to do if not something to accept the free gift then everyone is saved if not by your terms faith becomes a work

 

[BillyBob65]

I don't think saying you are "trying" to determine if the baptism in Romans 6 is talking about water baptism is correct. You have already made up your mind, already determined that it means what you say, and are impervious to anything said about it that does not agree.

The rite of baptism (sacrament) is always with water. That is not the issue concerning Rom 6.

You just described yourself . I did another post on Romans 6 verse over verse hope you find it.
I don't understand I thought you said that Romans 6 is not describing what happens in the baptism of Acts 2:38 while I am trying to show scripture that says it is indeed an explanation of Act 2:38

 

[BillyBob65]

The scriptures still have to be interpreted through the context they are in---surrounding texts---and the full counsel of God on the same subject. So, if you topically study baptism, and in doing so conclude that baptism saves, then you also have to surrender obedience to what it says about how we are saved and by whom. The topic to study alongside of it would be soteriology---how we are saved. And Scripture says over and over that we are saved through faith. Otherwise, you reach a conclusion with only half the information.

It is you who pointed out in an earlier post that we need to study all of Scripture to find meaning. So why aren't you doing that? And why do you not consider as important what others show you from scripture that makes your premature conclusion incorrect? A topical study on one subject and only using the few words of single scriptures that a topical Bible will give, is isolated from ALL contexts.{/quote]

I have already told you I agree that one has to believe have faith how ever you want to word it but ,that does not stand alone. I have said you also have to repent and also confess Christ as Lord. Neither of us dis agree with having to have faith, or repenting, or confessing,but we are worlds apart on baptism because we got hung up on a false pretense of faith alone. Being we can't get past that we try to rewrite the scriptures on baptism. We think that baptism has to be a work of man even though we read in Romans 6 that it is God working in baptism to transform man for dead in sin to alive in Christ. All the work done in baptism man can not do, it is God doing the work, but man want to not give him the glory and declare it is a work of man, when in truth man is only submitting to God so God can do his work.

Therefore being we agree that faith is need and repentance is needed and confession is needed we need not hash over what we agree. The problem arrives with baptism verses faith alone and if we get to the truth on baptism it also settles faith alone so therefore we must better study and understand the scriptural truth about baptism. We must see just what God recorded on this subject and not let our understanding of a separate concept direct the study. If we start off thinking that one is saved by faith alone and baptism has no place then we will never see the harmony of believe and be baptized as Jesus said in Mark 16:16

 

[BillyBob65]

And many who know one must repent don't really know what repentance is in the biblical sense and pertaining to salvation. Do you? You seem to think repentance comes before belief and that it does nothing until one is water baptized. That is not at all what the Bible teaches, so there is a great deal that you need to study even though "everyone knows" these things so you just have to follow along is the attitude I am seeing.

No you have pegged me all wrong and for me causing you to come to that conclusion I am sorry. Repentance is a turning from sinful nature to a godly lifestyle for a brief description I know it entails more in depth meaning but I shorthanded it.It is before baptism as is faith and confession sorry I miss stated whatever you find fault with.

 

[BillyBob65]

A great many people do and call themselves Christian since to confess that Christ is the Son of God is to confess his deity. Did you know that last part? But the question to this, the above, and all the other things you don't need to study because everyone knows them; can you articulate any of it and demonstrate it from Scripture. IOW articulate what you believe and why you believe it---besides "everyone knows that"?

Why are you trying to deflect away from studying the true meaning of baptism? I am not saying not to study faith or any other passage but we are discussing baptism why does that bother you so much.

 

[BillyBob65]

That contradicts John 3. And it contradicts Acts 2:43-48. It contradicts Eph 2:8-9 and John 1:12-13. It contradicts a whole host of other scriptures.[/quote no it just shows our preconceived ideals are getting in the way.

 

[BillyBob65]

Acts 2:43-58 says differently and corrects your misunderstanding. Same chapter. Part of the context.

Really don't know what you are talking about and we must have different bibles because in my bible Acts 2 only has 47 verses.