Water Baptism

[BillyBob65]

I know what you are trying to express. I have also expressed what I believe and instead of demonstrating what is wrong with it, why it is in correct, you simply repeat your position. I have clearly addressed your position and shown with exegesis and commentary why your position cannot be correct. Points you have not faced.

Believing the gospel is responding.

Scripture does not always say "believe and be baptized". Sometimes it simply says "repent" or "believe and you will be saved." So why is the necessary act of baptism (according to you) not always mentioned? I posit what you are calling a command is not a command but rather a statement of believing being a type of baptism in itself, immersion in Christ, and the water Scripture does not always Scripture does not always say "believe and be baptized". Sometimes it simply says "repent" or "believe and you will be saved." So why is the necessary act of baptism (according to you) not always mentioned? "believe and be baptized". Sometimes it simply says "repent" or "believe and you will be saved." So why is the necessary act of baptism (according to you) not always mentioned? is a sign of identifying with his death and resurrection. If it takes faith in Christ plus obedience or plus water baptism then it is no longer "through faith alone, in Christ alone". And it is no longer grace. The baptism of John was just a sign, and I will deal with that when I post the thread.

What happened in Acts 2 is they believed and then were baptized. Does it say that when they were baptized their sins were removed? Or that was when they received the Holy Spirit?

No, he does not. But I will not deal with what it does mean here, but rather in the thread I start of the baptism of John as it will make this post too long and move off subject. The critical factor in that passage than makes Paul to not be saying that water baptism is what gives the indwelling Holy Spirit, is what the baptism off John was all about. Its historic hemeneutic needs to be applied and compared to the baptism in the name of Jesus.

It does not say it is separate from the indwelling. In fact they couldn't do it without the indwelling. The apostle's commission was very specific. Laying the foundation (doctrine) of Christ's church and beginning the process of carrying to all nations. No one has any good in them or any power for sanctification or gospel sharing or anything else, without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is God who works in us.

Scripture does not always say "believe and be baptized". Sometimes it simply says "repent" or "believe and you will be saved." So why is the necessary act of baptism (according to you) not always mentioned?

Just how many times does scripture have to repeat itself for it to be the truth? You read that one has to repent and even if it is not connected with believe or confess, but you still believe that one has to repent in order to be saved . You read one has to confess the Lord before man to be saved and you accept that as something you must do. When it says that baptism in Christ name is for the remission of sin and when the spirit is given you can not accept that as truth even though that is how it is reported. So does it have to say it directly for one to understand? I feel it is us humans that have muddied the truth not the word. I feel if it states it once then it is gospel fact and we must make it harmonize with others that state something else. Mark 16:16 says believe and be baptized and you shall be saved just as it relates to Acts 2;38 Romans 10 says confession saves. Acts 17 says God commands everyone to repent. I feel it is all something that has to be done. If you love me you will Keep my commandments.

What happened in Acts 2 is they believed and then were baptized. Does it say that when they were baptized their sins were removed? Or that was when they received the Holy Spirit?

Yes it does clearly say that the baptism in the name of Christ is for the remission of sin (when sin is remitted) and it says that is when you receive the gift of the holy ghost (the indwelling spirit). The bible does say that we seem to not agree with what is recorded but that is what the scriptures say.

It does not say it is separate from the indwelling. In fact they couldn't do it without the indwelling. The apostle's commission was very specific. Laying the foundation (doctrine) of Christ's church and beginning the process of carrying to all nations. No one has any good in them or any power for sanctification or gospel sharing or anything else, without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is God who works in us.

I am not disagreeing with God works in us through the indwelling spirit, I just see receiving the indwelling is spelled out differently than what you are expressing.

I will be watching for your new thread on the difference between the baptism of John verses that of Christ.

 

[BillyBob65]

Well, my friend, that goes into yet another digressive doctrinal issue, relating to covenant. Water baptism is a covenant sign, just as circumcision was a covenant sign in the old covenant. It identifies one as being in the new covenant, in Christ. Circumcision in the flesh marked the circumcised as covenant members, bringing them into that covenant relationship with God, and it was commanded. Water baptism represents one who identifies with the death and resurrection of the covenant mediator, Christ as a member of the New Covenant community in a covenant relationship with God.

I already dealt heavily with Romans 6 and it was ignored so I am not going to do it again

 

[BillyBob65]

Well, my friend, that goes into yet another digressive doctrinal issue, relating to covenant. Water baptism is a covenant sign, just as circumcision was a covenant sign in the old covenant. It identifies one as being in the new covenant, in Christ. Circumcision in the flesh marked the circumcised as covenant members, bringing them into that covenant relationship with God, and it was commanded. Water baptism represents one who identifies with the death and resurrection of the covenant mediator, Christ as a member of the New Covenant community in a covenant relationship with God.

I already dealt heavily with Romans 6 and it was ignored so I am not going to do it again.

I will get back with you on the topic of circumcision covenant and relation to water baptism

I did not mean to ignore your dealing of Romans six if you can kindly direct me to that post I will gladly review it and respond. This is going fairly fast and a lot to cover sometimes I get lost in my own thoughts and for that I am sorry.

 

[Arial]

I will get back with you on the topic of circumcision covenant and relation to water baptism

I did not mean to ignore your dealing of Romans six if you can kindly direct me to that post I will gladly review it and respond. This is going fairly fast and a lot to cover sometimes I get lost in my own thoughts and for that I am sorry.

Post #16

 

[Arial]

Just how many times does scripture have to repeat itself for it to be the truth?

Every time it is telling us how to be saved. If belief is not enough, then it would never say that it was. If faith were not enough, it would never say that it was.

You read that one has to repent and even if it is not connected with believe or confess, but you still believe that one has to repent in order to be saved .

That is because belief and repentance go hand in hand. Without belief, there is no repentance. Without belief, there is no confession. Repentance and confession are a result of belief, not a requirement that precedes it. And faith (belief) is a gift given by God and by grace (Eph 2).

You read one has to confess the Lord before man to be saved and you accept that as something you must do.

I don't read it as something man has to do in order to be saved. It is something he does because he is saved. Don't you believe is salvation by faith alone, but that faith is not alone---it bears fruit? Not for salvation but for the glory of God.

When it says that baptism in Christ name is for the remission of sin and when the spirit is given you can not accept that as truth even though that is how it is reported.

I don't see water baptism in Christ's name as what remits our sins because I take the whole counsel of God into consideration and make sure, I have no contradictions. The Bible teaches salvation through faith alone and in Christ alone, again, and again, and again. So, what you need to do is find out why you have made a contradiction by saying that is in water baptism that our sins are remitted and through which we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

I will give you a clue and help further if you would like.

Peter in Acts 2:38 as to the Holy Spirit is promising introduction into the new covenant community---not prescribing a mechanical sequence. The Greek phrase eis aphesin hamartion (for the forgiveness of sins") can mean "because of" or "with reference to" not necessarily "in order to obtain." And other passages teach that forgiveness precedes baptism ( e.g. Acts 10:43-48}.

Baptism is a sign of God's promise (Acts 2:39)
A seal confirming what God grants by grace through faith
The covenant initiation rite, replacing circumcision (Col 2:11-12)

I am not disagreeing with God works in us through the indwelling spirit, I just see receiving the indwelling is spelled out differently than what you are expressing.

Perhaps you are mistaken, however. I have shown using Scripture how I arrive at my position. So far you simply present scriptures that if interpreted as you are interpreting them simply contradict what I presented----contradict clear scripture iow.

 

[BillyBob65]

Every time it is telling us how to be saved. If belief is not enough, then it would never say that it was. If faith were not enough, it would never say that it was.

That is because belief and repentance go hand in hand. Without belief, there is no repentance. Without belief, there is no confession. Repentance and confession are a result of belief, not a requirement that precedes it. And faith (belief) is a gift given by God and by grace (Eph 2).

I don't read it as something man has to do in order to be saved. It is something he does because he is saved. Don't you believe is salvation by faith alone, but that faith is not alone---it bears fruit? Not for salvation but for the glory of God.

I don't see water baptism in Christ's name as what remits our sins because I take the whole counsel of God into consideration and make sure, I have no contradictions. The Bible teaches salvation through faith alone and in Christ alone, again, and again, and again. So, what you need to do is find out why you have made a contradiction by saying that is in water baptism that our sins are remitted and through which we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

I will give you a clue and help further if you would like.

Peter in Acts 2:38 as to the Holy Spirit is promising introduction into the new covenant community---not prescribing a mechanical sequence. The Greek phrase eis aphesin hamartion (for the forgiveness of sins") can mean "because of" or "with reference to" not necessarily "in order to obtain." And other passages teach that forgiveness precedes baptism ( e.g. Acts 10:43-48}.

Baptism is a sign of God's promise (Acts 2:39)
A seal confirming what God grants by grace through faith
The covenant initiation rite, replacing circumcision (Col 2:11-12)

Perhaps you are mistaken, however. I have shown using Scripture how I arrive at my position. So far you simply present scriptures that if interpreted as you are interpreting them simply contradict what I presented----contradict clear scripture iow.

show me where the words saved by faith alone appear in the bible with out having to come to that conclusion with other verbiage

 

[BillyBob65]

Romans 6:
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

Paul isn't speaking of water baptism either. He is writing to say that if one denies our future resurrection (as evidently some were) then our faith is in vain and even Christ's death was in vain. IOW it is a necessary part of the gospel unto salvation to believe in the resurrection. The baptism he speaks of is the baptism by the Holy Spirit (new birth, John 3) that makes our union with Christ so intimate and sure, as to be considered being buried and raised to life with him.

It is that union that water baptism signifies.

Is this your in depth dealing with Romans 6 if so I will try to respond to it later

 

[Arial]

show me where the words saved by faith alone appear in the bible with out having to come to that conclusion with other verbiage

Why would you need those exact words when it is the "verbage" that shows clearly that only faith and not works is what justifies a person? And a person is saved because they have been justified before God. Reconciled to him through faith in Christ apart from works. It says quite plainly that we are saved by grace---that is, we do not deserve it and there is nothing we can do to earn salvation or reconcile our sinful selves to God. If we have to do something like get baptized or anything else to be saved, it is no longer grace.

 

[Arial]

Is this your in depth dealing with Romans 6 if so I will try to respond to it later

My apologies. I was in a different chapter. But in Romans 6 Paul is not talking about water baptism other than as the outward sign of what water baptism signifies.

 

[Carbon]

show me where the words saved by faith alone appear in the bible with out having to come to that conclusion with other verbiage

Scripture does not have to continue to repeat, "by faith alone," along with all other things, like good works or baptism, it presents these as interconnected. These are the things one will do if they are genuinely saved by faith, that is: they will have good works and will be baptized.

Also,
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. Eph 2:8-9.
Salvation is a free gift by grace, not earned by works like baptism.

Consider this.

 

[BillyBob65]

Why would you need those exact words when it is the "verbage" that shows clearly that only faith and not works is what justifies a person? And a person is saved because they have been justified before God. Reconciled to him through faith in Christ apart from works. It says quite plainly that we are saved by grace---that is, we do not deserve it and there is nothing we can do to earn salvation or reconcile our sinful selves to God. If we have to do something like get baptized or anything else to be saved, it is no longer grace.

I need those word at least once to verify that that is the case and not an opinion. I see all of my beliefs written in the word if I say baptism is for remission of sin I can give you the scriptures that it is written in. If I say believe and baptism is required I can point the the scripture in which it is written. That is all I am asking of you to point to the scripture that says one is saved by faith alone,

Works is another study in itself. If you are commanded to respond in a certain way it does not make it a work but a submission to a command. No you can not do good works to be saved but you can obey a command to be saved.

2 Thessalonians 1;8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

The gospel is a call that requires an obedient response and that response was give in Acts 2:38. When they asked what the need to do they weren't told nothing your belief saved you but rather to "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. "


Question do you agree that Acts 2 is when Peter preached the complete fulfilled gospel for the first time opening the door to the church?
If so we see how God saves and adds to the church it is all spelled out right there correct?
We also agree that Peter is not speaking of his own words but what is given him from the spirit correct making it the words of God?

Question could the grace that saves be the gospel and how we are required to respond to the gospel call?

Romans 6 shows just how baptism is set to be part of the saving grace. It is the vessel in which God has chosen to do the transforming work. It is not symbolic of it but the actual working of God transforming a sinful man into a spiritual man the new birth John 3:3ff

 

[BillyBob65]

My apologies. I was in a different chapter. But in Romans 6 Paul is not talking about water baptism other than as the outward sign of what water baptism signifies.

And my question is why not all through the new testament we see the baptism in the name of Jesus in which we are command to do as being of water.

 

[BillyBob65]

Scripture does not have to continue to repeat, "by faith alone," along with all other things, like good works or baptism, it presents these as interconnected. These are the things one will do if they are genuinely saved by faith, that is: they will have good works and will be baptized.

Also,
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. Eph 2:8-9.
Salvation is a free gift by grace, not earned by works like baptism.

Consider this.

Why be baptized then? If baptism has no salvation value or means why would Jesus command one to be baptized in his name? Why would Paul connect being born again to baptism?

Grace is the gospel call God sent out. God saves through the Gospel Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The gospel has to be obeyed so yes there is something one has to do he has to obey the gospel. The response in which one is to obey the gospel is given In Acts 2:38 .

Not obeying the gospel has punishment to follow. we have done been over this.

 

[Carbon]

Why be baptized then? If baptism has no salvation value or means why would Jesus command one to be baptized in his name? Why would Paul connect being born again to baptism?

I believe in order to answer that for your benefit," you would have to lay aside all your bad doctrine and be mentally reformed back to the bible.
Unless God performs a miraculous event or opens your eyes to the truth, you just won't even consider it.

I just want to make sure you understand where I am coming from. I am not fooling with you. I know that the answers to those questions you asked are very easy to answer. So much so that you must know the answers, and if you claim you dont, then you're just playing.


Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. Acts 16:30-33

We are saved by "grace" through faith. That's it, friend, see Acts 16 again. No works, no baptism. If you include water baptism for salvation, you include works. And by including works, you cancel out the gospel into a strange gospel (easily recognized), which is no longer the gospel.

 

[Carbon]

Why be baptized then? If baptism has no salvation value or means why would Jesus command one to be baptized in his name? Why would Paul connect being born again to baptism?

Grace is the gospel call God sent out. God saves through the Gospel Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The gospel has to be obeyed so yes there is something one has to do he has to obey the gospel. The response in which one is to obey the gospel is given In Acts 2:38 .

Not obeying the gospel has punishment to follow. we have done been over this.

This will be your only warning. Stop teaching and insisting on your false gospel. You have no authority.

 

[BillyBob65]

This will be your only warning. Stop teaching and insisting on your false gospel. You have no authority.

I am only quoting scripture as it is recorded my friend sorry if that bothers you and goes against your teaching.