Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

[Ghada]

But saying that the autonomous can't choose to be pure once corrupted

Exactly.

Jhn 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

All men are created pure in the image of the true God, with His free will and power to do good as created. Or, with power to choose to lust against Him as Lucifer first did.

Once any man does lust and sin against our Creator, then we no longer have freedom and power to do His will with a pure heart.

Sinners still have their created autonomous will to do good deeds, but such righteousnesses of men with corrupt hearts are not justified with the Lord.

Isa 64:6But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

1Co 13:3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Mat 23:26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Once autonomous men concieve their own lust of heart, then that old lust must be taken away by the ciorcumsicion of the Spirit, to be newly born as in the beginning with a whole new heart and life in the image of Jesus Christ:

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

shows your statement: that we have an autonomous to be false.

The statement shows that original autonomy to do good or evil deeds, is not a guarrantee to only love and serve the Lord with a pure heart and clean conscience in His own image.

Autonomy of will does not ensure purity of will.

Jhn 1:9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Jesus Christ does lighten all men to do His good, but He cannot force any man to walk in His light.

Autonomy by creation is having power on earth to do good or evil deeds at any time. It is not power circumcise one's own heart from lust, and be pure in God's image.

Jesus Christ is the only man who kept Himself pure and guiltless the image of God, and from a youth never concieved lust against His own Father.

Luk 2:40And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

2Ti 2:22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

 

[Ghada]

Since all are born in sin, no one has an autonomous will.

Circular argument: Bringing in another false teaching does not prove the other true.

I've already given the Scriptures proving that all men are created equally in the image of God, with the true Christ lighting every man coming into the world.

By autonomy of will, any man on earth can choose to lust against the Lord, as well as accuse Him of creating and making him that way.

But after the grave, the Father wil equally judge all men by our works, not by any man's vain imagination.

Jer 18:12And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.

Beleiving men are created by God Himself to do evil, is nothing new. Unrepentant sinners have been seeking to justify themselves, by declaring there is no hope for any man to do good, and sin not, since they say all men are created that way.

And they are still doing so by saying they have no autonomy of will not to lust and sin, by choosing to beleive they are still created that way.

Not everyone believing the lie of sinful birth, use that device to justify their continued sinning, but some do. Which is why they also agree with the unrepentant, that there is no hope to cease lusting and sinning on earth.

If someone really wants to believe in a Christ that not only creates them evil from birth, but also continues their lusting post-conversion, to then trust that Christ to finally resurrect them good after the grave? That's their autonomy and freedom of faith and trust to do so, but it's certainly not the true God and good Creator Jesus Christ.

The gospel of Jesus Christ according to the Scriptures, is that if any man will repent of his deeds, then Jesus will take his lust away, to become babes once again newborn of the righteous Father.

He also gives them His faith to do good without lust, even as He walked from His own youth up to the end.

It's certainly true that the unrepentant, or half-hearted repenters truly have no hope to cease their lust and sinning on earth, even by faith in their own Christ creating them that way.

However, it certainly is not true of Jesus Christ and His newly begotten saints. Jesus Christ does not create any man that way, nor does He leave any man that whole heartedly repents for His sake, with their old lust to continue doing evil unto death.

RE:
My Question: So why did you and 100% of billions of other chose to do evil if they have an autonomous will?

Already answered

Simply question. Why do you desire to do evil at times?

I don't. My lust has been taken away by Jesus Christ, as promised by His gospel:

Acts 3:19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

2 Cor 7:10For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
The world's manner of sorry repentance from some deeds, but not all, is certainly unto conversion and dead religion of their own, but it is not the whole repentance granted by God unto the pure religion of Jesus Christ, both in this life and the world to come.

1 Tim{4:8} For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

2Co 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Jas 1:27Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

1 John 5:18We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

 

[Ghada]

AH ... you're concept of God believes God does not know all things.

God does know all things perfectly as they are. And He also knows why they are created:

Rev 4:11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

But, by His own unanswered question, He does not know why they are in a displeasing way, that they are not created to be for His pleasure.

Another Christ would say it's because he created them that way in the first place, but that's not Jesus Christ the only true Creator:

Jhn 1:2The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Interesting ... got to wonder how God can make prophecies so accurately given He is not all knowing.

His sure prophecies are by watching all things done by angels and men, and thus perfectly knowing them from the beginning:

Isa 40:21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth? It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers.

Ecc 5:8If thou seest the oppression of the poor, and violent perverting of judgment and justice in a province, marvel not at the matter: for he that is higher than the highest regardeth.

Psa 90:4For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

He knows how and when, but not why.

Do you have a verse saying God does not know all things.

Do you have a verse where He answers His own question of why men choose to do evil, and not good?

Of course, the question itself is never asked by any Christ, that would create men to do evil, without choice to do good.

How do you explain: Job 37:16 who is perfect in knowledge

Perfect in knowledge is knowing all things as they truly are. It does not know why they are evil, when created good.

God certainly knows how His good creation corrupts itself by concieving lust of heart, first with Lucifer and also with Adam, and all men that have sinned.

That is especially true now, when His own Son is come in the flesh, died for our sin, and is risen again for our justification, to take away our lust and sin.

Mat 1:21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Jhn 1:29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
2Co 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

.... If God doesn't know why people desire to commit evil then I have to assume you do not also.

Correct.

The only ones presuming to know why, are them worshipping a Christ creating them that way.

And yet, since that Christ is false, then we still have the only true Creator Jesus Christ asking why.

Jhn 1:2The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made...That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Rev 4:11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

 

[Ghada]

makesends said:
Can you explain how it was God's deliberate plan for wicked men to put Jesus Christ to death by nailing him to the cross, without also intending for Adam to sin?

No more then you can explain why God would make a creation intended to sin. For if it was not free will if Adam was expected to.

True. What we are seeing here is the twisted belief, that man was only created evil, so that men had no choice but to crucify Jesus Christ on a cross.

I.e. what God most wanted was to die on earth, and so He had to make men evil on earth, in order to kill Him. Like the eternal living God wanted to taste of death, and some committed suicide by man.

I once saw a science fiction movie with Sean Connery, where immortal beings on a planet were looking for a way to die, just to see what it was like. They had become bored of living forever, and they also wanted to test themselves, to see if they would rise from the dead again.

 

[Mr GLee]

But, by His own unanswered question, He does not know why they are in a displeasing way, that they are not created to be for His pleasure.

Another Christ would say it's because he created them that way in the first place, but that's not Jesus Christ the only true Creator:

He knew why they were displeasing why when they robed him of his glorious pleasure .

His sure prophecies are by watching all things done by angels and men, and thus perfectly knowing them from the beginning:

He moves messengers of men apostles (not angel a fake word) to see if they are performing the words sent with them

Believer are not yoked with the idea of a legion of angels. disembodied worker with a familiar spirit gods today called patron saints

Christ's Spirit in us. Not patron saints (angels) as false apostles working with us

Christ does not learn from a watching us .He calls us the watchers

Jerimiah 1:9:12 Then the Lord put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the Lord said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth. (Not put a legion of angels in your mouth ) See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant. Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Jeremiah, what seest thou? And I said, I see a rod of an almond tree. Then said the Lord unto me, Thou hast well seen: for I will hasten my word to perform it. (let it be and it was good

Perform It the faithful power of God not a legion of fake messengers called angels

Angels going away the same as making patron saints disembodied spirit gods disappear.

 

[makesends]

True. What we are seeing here is the twisted belief, that man was only created evil, so that men had no choice but to crucify Jesus Christ on a cross.

I.e. what God most wanted was to die on earth, and so He had to make men evil on earth, in order to kill Him. Like the eternal living God wanted to taste of death, and some committed suicide by man.

I once saw a science fiction movie with Sean Connery, where immortal beings on a planet were looking for a way to die, just to see what it was like. They had become bored of living forever, and they also wanted to test themselves, to see if they would rise from the dead again.

I have never said that man was created evil. I said that all were created for God's purposes, and that includes whatever it takes to build his church. See Romans 9:22-23 again —wrath and power. The evil, and the reprobate, are for God's purposes, and for his glory, demonstrating his justice and mercy to the objects of his mercy.

 

[Ghada]

I have never said that man was created evil.

This is an obvious equivocating backtrack.

Creating man a sinner to sin, is creating man evil to do evil.

I said that all were created for God's purposes

Which was for man to sin and do evil.

So, you eant to say sinning against God, is not evil? Or, man was not created to sin, but only sinned after being created to do good?

And then we have this:

makesends said:
Can you explain how it was God's deliberate plan for wicked men to put Jesus Christ to death by nailing him to the cross, without also intending for Adam to sin?

Not only did God create man to do evil, but He had to so that evil man would kill Jesus Christ.

, and that includes whatever it takes to build his church.

Nothing in there is talking about the purposes of God to build His church, but only about the purposes of God to make man to kill Jesus Christ.

So, you prefer the word 'sin' to evil, then we'll go with your accusation against Jesus Christ, that He created man to sin, so that sinful man would kill Him on a cross.

 

[Rella]

makesends said:
Can you explain how it was God's deliberate plan for wicked men to put Jesus Christ to death by nailing him to the cross, without also intending for Adam to sin?

And then we have this:

Not only did God create man to do evil, but He had to so that evil man would kill Jesus Christ.

Side question please.

Perhaps has been covered but I have not gone back to check.

If... as in 1 Cor 15:35 So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Paul also said, to avoid confusion... 1 Cor 15: 48-49 “As was the earthly man [Adam], so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven [Christ], so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven”

And if Adam was made a man to sin. Why was Jesus, without sin, called the last Adam?

 

[makesends]

This is an obvious equivocating backtrack.

Creating man a sinner to sin, is creating man evil to do evil.

Creating some for the purpose of them doing evil is not the same as to create man evil. So where is your argument?

Which was for man to sin and do evil.

So, you eant to say sinning against God, is not evil? Or, man was not created to sin, but only sinned after being created to do good?

You have a logical problem there. How does omniscient God know what someone will do, before creating them, yet he creates them anyway, without knowingly causing that thing to happen.

And then we have this:

Not only did God create man to do evil, but He had to so that evil man would kill Jesus Christ.

That's human-talk. You think God's predetermined plan that evil men would kill Jesus Christ means he HAD to do something? If you make it to Heaven I hope to see your embarrassed face. God doesn't have to "plan". Even that is human-talk. His 'plan' doesn't come before his figuring out how to accomplish it. It is all one word. Since he created, and this is his 'plan', it is the ONLY way that it can happen. Us speculating other ways is foolish. That's human self-determinism poking its ugly little head into the picture. It's not that God HAD to do anything. It is the way we talk.

Nothing in there is talking about the purposes of God to build His church, but only about the purposes of God to make man to kill Jesus Christ.

Nothing in larger context? What is the end game? Look at Rev 21.
Why do you suppose God would purpose for evil men to kill Jesus Christ?

So, you prefer the word 'sin' to evil, then we'll go with your accusation against Jesus Christ, that He created man to sin, so that sinful man would kill Him on a cross.

You have, maybe, some other reason to believe that we (some) are cleaner than others, some inherently more capable of shunning evil?

But where do I accuse Jesus Christ of that? I praise God for that, for his power, wisdom, purity and glory. It is you that turns what Romans 9 says, into an accusation. "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?" You, apparently, think the potter does not have that right.

"But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God?"

 

[Ghada]

If... as in 1 Cor 15:35 So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Good work. You prove by one well-known Scripture, that man was not made with sin by any Christ, because man is made a living soul by Jesus Christ.

Here is another example:

Gen 3:4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

If man is made dead soul with sin, how could he then die by sin? Afterall, he was made spiritually stillborn and already dead.

Jhn 1:2The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

There is no other Maker than Jesus Christ,. He made man a living soul without sin, not a spiritually dead soul with sin.

Preaching man made with sin dead to God, is preaching a false Christ and god of this world.

Paul also said, to avoid confusion... 1 Cor 15: 48-49 “As was the earthly man [Adam], so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven [Christ], so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven”

And if Adam was made a man to sin. Why was Jesus, without sin, called the last Adam?

Well done again. If the first Adam were made with sin, then why call Jesus Christ the second Adam, which would also be with sin.

It really isn't hard to teach the Bible, because we see it as simple as quoting what is written, and believing the words at face value.

The only hard teachers are them that do not believe God's own words as written, because they autonomously choose to believe their own lies. As well as worship and preach an evil Christ-maker of sin in man.

 

[Ghada]

Creating some for the purpose of them doing evil is not the same as to create man evil.

This is irrational sophistry.

Creating something to do a certain thing, is not creating it that way? God creates man with sin nature to do evil, and yet does not create man an evil sinner?

Your objection is not with creating man sinful, but rather calling it evil. As with many people on earth, they downgrade sin to something natural, but are offended at calling it evil.

So where is your argument?

I don't play sophistry with the word of God. Instead, we can be plain.

First prove you do not believe God creates man evil, by agreeing God creates man good.

Then you can show how God made the good man to sin as He intended: How did God fulfill His own will for man to sin, after creating man good in His own image?

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
Creating some for the purpose of them doing evil is not the same as to create man evil.

This is irrational sophistry.

Creating something to do a certain thing, is not creating it that way? God creates man with sin nature to do evil, and yet does not create man an evil sinner?

Wait a minute —did you just hurt my feelings?!!? Because if you hurt my feelings, and *I* find out about it, well....!!

Let me see if I follow your logic: God created you, and you sinned, but God didn't know about that when he created you?

No, it's more obviously mistaken: How does God creating 'you to do sin during this progression of time', translate to 'God created you sinful'?

Your objection is not with creating man sinful, but rather calling it evil. As with many people on earth, they downgrade sin to something natural, but are offended at calling it evil.

You're still wrong. He did not create man sinful, but man became sinful.

I'm betting that you can't place a date on just exactly when God created anyone. Your logistics are off.

I don't play sophistry with the word of God. Instead, we can be plain.

First prove you do not believe God creates man evil, by agreeing God creates man good.

Then you can show how God made the good man to sin as He intended: How did God fulfill His own will for man to sin, after creating man good in His own image?

A good place to start is either before the fall, or, if you want to get into the weeds, start with the logistics of imputation.

 

[Ghada]

makesends said:
Can you explain how it was God's deliberate plan for wicked men to put Jesus Christ to death by nailing him to the cross, without also intending for Adam to sin?

This is a truly remarkable sentence. What? God had a deathwish, so He made man to be the instrument of His death??

Do predeterminists ever stop to think, that if God intends man to do evil, then man doing evil is only doing God's will and fulling His purpose?? Men intended by God to do evil, are only doing His will by doing evil. And if created without freewill to do otherwise, then they can only doing God's will by doing evil.

The lie of God creating man with the intent to sin and kill His own Son, means His crucifiers had godly hands in obedience to their own Creator's will. They could not be wicked hands by only doing what God created with intent to do.

makesends said:
Can you explain how it was God's deliberate plan for wicked men to put Jesus Christ to death by nailing him to the cross, without also intending for Adam to sin?

Furthermore, the grammar reads like God's primary purpose for creation was to die on earth. And He only made man to fulfill His intent to do so, as in suicide by man.

God never intended any man to sin, especially not to kill Himself on earth. The true God does even tempt man to sin, much less intend His beloved creatures to do so.

Any father that intends his own children to do evil, is only because he is an evil father.

1Sa 24:13As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked:

Any parent intending their own offspring to do evil, must raise them that way to ensure they do so. God intending His son Adam to do evil, is God raising His own son in an evil way.

But, what God intends all men to sin? What Christ came into the garden to tempt man to sin? With the very intent to crucify the Son in the flesh?

Rev 20:1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

And since it is also declared such a Christ did not create man evil, but could only intend man to do evil by temptation, then we know it is not the true God and Creator, but another god entirely with such evil intent for man and Jesus Christ come in the flesh.

 

[makesends]

This is a truly remarkable sentence. What? God had a deathwish, so He made man to be the instrument of His death??

Yes, it is! Yet, the Bible says God deliberately planned it! Now I'm wondering if you believe the Bible.

But your statement about "God had a deathwish" is inane. A little intellectual honesty is in order, I think. God had a reason for Christ to die; Christ's death was not an end in itself.

Your thinking here is of the same sort as that in your last to which I responded. Basically, you translated "God caused man to become sinful" to "God created man sinful". Here, you cut God's purposes off at the death of Christ. Really??

Do predeterminists ever stop to think, that if God intends man to do evil, then man doing evil is only doing God's will and fulling His purpose?? Men intended by God to do evil, are only doing His will by doing evil. And if created without freewill to do otherwise, then they can only doing God's will by doing evil.

There are at least two uses of the term, God's will (and similar phrases), in Scripture. I thought you already knew that.
1) His will is that we obey him (command).
2) He is not willing that any [of his elect] should perish (plan/decree).

BTW, the logic that says that freewill means that a person is able to "do" whichever, is vapid. A person is indeed able to choose a course of action, but that course of action is always what God planned. And what comes of that choice is often not at all what that person thought to cause by his choice. Can you show that the law of causation is not completely prevalent?

And can you show me how it is possible for 'free will' of your description, to make choices at all, if one is not caused to choose one thing or another? Upon what is that choice based? Mere chance? First-Cause style autonomy? Some people just better people than the rest?

The lie of God creating man with the intent to sin and kill His own Son,

So do you believe Acts 2:23?

The lie of God creating man with the intent to sin and kill His own Son, means His crucifiers had godly hands in obedience to their own Creator's will. They could not be wicked hands by only doing what God created with intent to do.

More sophistry (to quote a poster of recent comments). Have some intellectual honesty. If, as I claim, God's plans for his creation include his Son being killed by evil men, how does that translate to obedience? They did it in rebellion against God, which is endemic to disobedience. Is God so weak, that he can only tell people what he wants, and wait on THEM to accomplish it? Does your God fly by the seat of his pants, putting out fires, and inventing new ways to handle all the mistakes?

Furthermore, the grammar reads like God's primary purpose for creation was to die on earth. And He only made man to fulfill His intent to do so, as in suicide by man.

You already said that above. It does not read like his primary purpose was to die. The death of Christ was an enormous means to an end, which is found in Rev 21 among other places.

God never intended any man to sin, especially not to kill Himself on earth.

Then you don't believe Acts 2:23

The true God does even tempt man to sin, much less intend His beloved creatures to do so.

Any father that intends his own children to do evil, is only because he is an evil father.

"Jacob have I loved; Esau have I hated"

1Sa 24:13As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked:

Indeed it is so. Where's the problem?

Any parent intending their own offspring to do evil, must raise them that way to ensure they do so. God intending His son Adam to do evil, is God raising His own son in an evil way.

No. It only took the one temptation, to which Adam succumbed.

But, what God intends all men to sin? What Christ came into the garden to tempt man to sin?

What in the world are you talking about? Christ came into the garden???

With the very intent to crucify the Son in the flesh?

Rev 20:1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

And since it is also declared such a Christ did not create man evil, but could only intend man to do evil by temptation, then we know it is not the true God and Creator, but another god entirely with such evil intent for man and Jesus Christ come in the flesh.

You continue with the strawman, that I say God created man evil. Not so.

Further you invent another strawman, though they are both built of the same sloppy hands, that God 'intending that evil come to pass' is 'evil intent'. For example, Joseph told his brothers that when the sold him to the slavers, that they "...indeed meant it for evil", but "God intended it for good."

 

[Ghada]

Ghada said:
The foreknoweldge of God is by watching what men do, not by predetermining and preplanning their deeds.

Wow! Speaking of circular reasoning! Who is it arguing by use of their presumptions, here?

Scriptures were given saying so.

You only suppose your notion of God's foreknowledge to be what he knows by looking into the future.

It's common for them that misread Scripture for their own purposes, also to misread teaching of Scripture for the same purposes.

I never said, nor showed any Scripture of God looking into the future. The Word watches what is happening now, and so knows it with God in the beginning.

Are you saying God is not now everywhere watching everything? And therefore sees and knows today even the hidden thoughts of man?

Gen 22:12And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Do you not know that God doesn't operate only within time?

The eternal God is not eternally apart from creation and time. That is a standard Christian error from the Scriptures, that says God is now watching high from above all things coming to pass.

The mystery of how He also therefore knows what will come to pass from the beginning, is revealed in John 1:1, where the Word knows with God in the beginning, all things that shall come to pass today and tomorrow.

Once God created the world, time became His to operate in, which is why there is also time in heaven:

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Just because the eternal life of God considers one day to be as a thousand years, and a thousand years the same as day one, does not mean that He does not live that thousand years one day at a time.

Hebrews{13:8} Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Heb 1:10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

Which is why we sing, "One day at a time sweet Jesus..."

 

[Ghada]

If you have a problem with Acts 2:23 let me know. "23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross."

Exactly. Now you have the only Scripture that proves God's predetermined will for a man on earth: Which is only for the one man, Jesus Christ.

The Son is the only man, that was preordained by God from the beginning to do a specific work on earth. And the Father trusted the Son to do so according to plan, because the Word is God, and cannot lie.

Other than coming into the world to do good by the expressed will of the Father, the Son is the only man prechosen and determined to die for man's sins and rise again from the dead.

Jesus Christ is the only prechosen man and Lamb of God at creation. All other men were chosen by God only after conception, not before.

Excuse me yet again???!!! God cannot answer that? There is something that God cannot do?

Already given the Scripture of God lamentably asking why men sin against Him to their own destruction. And also the challenge to you showing where God answers the question.

Jhn 15:25But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

There is no cause for men to do evil against our own Creator. And the lie that God causes men to do so, is the oldest accusation of the devil against Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ never intended any angel nor man to lust and sin against Him.

What automotons? They do what they do according to their OWN evil will.

Redefining words is for a lost cause.

Autonomous freewill is power to choose what to think and do. Power only to do one thing is neither autonomous nor free.

Having only one will by birth, that must be done by nature, without power to choose otherwise, is the lie of the natural man, that says all men are like all other animals on earth.

Saying God creates man that way is the lie of natural theologians and pagan philosophers, that do not believe in being created in the image of the true God, with His autonomy of will.

And that, by God's decree for his own purposes, and that, logically, planned by God from the very beginning.

God's only decree and purpose before creation for any man, was for the man Christ Jesus.

Jesus Christ did not intend any man to sin wilfully, nor did He come in the flesh intending to do so Himself.

You and I have no common basis for discussion,

A discussion is where there is some agreement. A debate is where there is no disagreement. Our discussion ended when you said Christ creates man to do evil. Since then, it's only been a debate.

I rejected your Christ long before your own arguments. And now I reject it all the more after the seeing the ditch they are dug from.

Such as any Christ not only creating man to do evil, but also for the express purpose of having men kill Him? As it were God's own suicide by man.

Rev 2:24But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, that they speak;

and civility is long since gone out the window.

Disagreement and rejection is not uncivil, but it is only the freewill given by God.

When you learn that simple truth, you won't get so offended when people disagree with you and why. And if you can't get over that, then you shouldn't enter into open debates, but only talk to people who already agree with you.

Gal 1:10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

You have exalted man to entirely self-deterministic ability,

Jhn 10:34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

as though out-of-the-blue he is able to do something uncaused!

More purposed misreading. Autonomy is the gift of God in His own image. It is the cause of man's life with God, or his own destruction, if we abuse it to concieve and conspire to lust against God.

Lusting against God's will for us, is proof of autonomy on earth.

If God creates man with predetermined will without autonomy to do otherwise, then it is impossible for any man to lust against our Creator's will.

You, (in an earlier post, #328), define autonomy as merely "Autonomous will to act against God and nature", and even go to some lengths to show that God caused him to be,

God made man to have the same autonomy of His own image.

The lie is that God made man that way, not as a blessing to love God freely from the heart, but only in order to choose to do evil. And then worse, only so man would kill Him in the flesh.

Jesus Christ did not commit suicide by cross, by making man with the intent to crucify Him.

 

[makesends]

Exactly. Now you have the only Scripture that proves God's predetermined will for a man on earth: Which is only for the one man, Jesus Christ.

The Son is the only man, that was preordained by God from the beginning to do a specific work on earth. And the Father trusted the Son to do so according to plan, because the Word is God, and cannot lie.

Other than coming into the world to do good by the expressed will of the Father, the Son is the only man prechosen and determined to die for man's sins and rise again from the dead.

So, Jesus didn't have free will?

 

[makesends]

Exactly. Now you have the only Scripture that proves God's predetermined will for a man on earth: Which is only for the one man, Jesus Christ.

The Son is the only man, that was preordained by God from the beginning to do a specific work on earth. And the Father trusted the Son to do so according to plan, because the Word is God, and cannot lie.

Other than coming into the world to do good by the expressed will of the Father, the Son is the only man prechosen and determined to die for man's sins and rise again from the dead.

So, can you show how this is not God planning that there be evil?

 

[Ghada]

Why? Did God create Lucifer to sin? Did God deliberately plan for Lucifer and 1/3 of this created angels to sin

No.

Eze 28:15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

God creates every ministering angel perfect, and ever man good in His own image.

God does not create any angel nor man sinful, nor wills, nor tempts any man to sin.

Jas 1:14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

The power of being created by God with His freewill, is a twoedged sword to do good as created by Him and live, or to conceive lust against God and die.

The angels that sinners were as evil gods cast down from heaven, and the men that sin are as sinful gods on earth.

Gen 3:4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: {3:5} For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Sinful men on earth have opportunity to repent. Angels that sin do not.

Predeterminism and choosing of souls to do evil unto destruction is the greatest and first lie of Satan against the true God and Creator Jesus Christ. He accused God in the garden of not willing the best good for Adam and Eve, but rather intended them to cursed.

Some people make the error of believing God must create man evil, for all men have sinned, but the radical predeterminists preach and worship a Christ they believe does create man to do evil.

They accuse Jesus Christ of darkening man from the womb with sin, rather than lighting every man coming into the world for the good:

Isa 5:20Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

The question is why preach such an evil thing in the name of Jesus Christ? I suspect that as with all such false gospels, the hidden unspoken reason is self-justification by one's faith alone, apart from our works.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Anyone claiming to be predestinated to life everlasting before they were born, can then claim to be justified apart from any works they do from the womb: Justification by one's faith alone apart from works they do.

And as usual, the also confess to still doing sinful works, so that the works they themselves set apart from their own prejustification, is the unrighteousness they do with the children of disobedience.

So yes, there was/is a plan . I simply don't see it as God having predestined me to be eating a piece of cheese when writing this.

That goes double for anyone eating stolen cheese.

 

[Rella]

Hey,

@Ghada, and @makesends

While I am thoroughly enjoying your quasi-diatribe with each other one thing is noticeable missing in the
attempt to "explain" each of your sides and the endeavor to try to tie Adam's sin to that of the men that crucified Jesus....
or to explain it away NO ONE has yet to talk on the point of why, exactly, Jesus came to earth in the first place.

He was, after all, "OUR" sacrifice provided by the Heavenly Father, without who none of us would have had any hope.

Y'all seem to have forgotten that fact in your jousting back and forth with who can say the silliest ideas.

Adam was not made evil. Lucifer was not made evil. And I don't believe Judas was either.
They were, as we all were given "free will" and the problem that came with that was called temptation
IMO.

OK... carry on.... Im waiting for your next chapter.