Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

[Mr GLee]

Lucifer a spirit of God sent to protect glory of creation . as the father of lies he claims he was the Creator. Two spirits we are to be concerned with .Not a legion of what some call angel. English. messenger apostle .

How beautiful are their feet .of the apostles. No creation of angels

 

[Ghada]

makesends said:
Creating some for the purpose of them doing evil is not the same as to create man evil.

Let me see if I follow your logic: God created you, and you sinned, but God didn't know about that when he created you?

This avoids the argument by changing the subject. God foreknowing all people is not debated.

God predetermining what all people do, is the lie. Especially the lie that Jesus Christ predetermines anyone to do evil.

No, it's more obviously mistaken: How does God creating 'you to do sin during this progression of time', translate to 'God created you sinful'?

The same as any Christ making anyone to do evil, is making them evil.

You're still wrong. He did not create man sinful, but man became sinful.

Man becomes sinful by sinning. Any Christ making man to sin, makes man sinful.

I'm betting that you can't place a date on just exactly when God created anyone.

If you mean the exact date Adam was created, it's not recorded in Scripture.

If you mean when exactly the babe is conceived in the womb before birth, that also is debatable.

I'm betting that you can't place a date on just exactly when God created anyone.

But what does Scripture say about making the soul and the body?

Isa 44:2Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen. But wethat God made and formed the babe in the womb.

God makes the soul and forms the body at the same time.

Gen 2:7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

And further, if one is made before the other, then it would have to be the body is first formed for the living soul to be made therein.

Like the Sabbath, man is not made for a body, but the body is made for man.

Mar 12:23 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
Of course, some people do not want to know the Bible truth and power of God to form new bodies in the womb, and make new souls in His own image every day.

That's why they don't look to the Scriptures to preach things God never says. Such as man has no freewill, and souls are made before the body is formed.

No man becomes a living soul before the body is formed for him.

A good place to start is either before the fall, or, if you want to get into the weeds, start with the logistics of imputation.

2 Timothy{6:20} O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane [and] vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith.

I only start and end with Scripture, to teach the true things of God, and do them.

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

 

[Rella]

makesends said:

Creating some for the purpose of them doing evil is not the same as to create man evil.

This avoids the argument by changing the subject. God foreknowing all people is not debated.

God predetermining what all people do, is the lie. Especially the lie that Jesus Christ predetermines anyone to do evil.

Fit the pharaoh of Exodus, with God hardening his heart, more then once, to allow the Exodus , into this.

Also, where would you fit Judas into things. Was it known that he would betray Jesus, but was picked anyway to fulfill things or
was it merely they knew he had the propensity to be what was needed , possibly with a little prodding from above?

I am firmly in the free will camp, but throughout the bible it seems as if a person, or people have been chosen to fulfill those prophesies.

 

[Mr GLee]

This avoids the argument by changing the subject. God foreknowing all people is not debated.

God predetermining what all people do, is the lie. Especially the lie that Jesus Christ predetermines anyone to do evil.

Where did the idea that God predetermines men do evil come from?

The Bible does not teach that oral tradition of dying mankind .

Dying mankind under a curse has no power to raise themselves from the dead .

Understanding how the the word dead is used is the key.

Dead foreign from the living things of Christ as strangers from the covenants of promise, previously having no hope, and without God in the present world:

Study what it means to be raised from the "deader than a door nail" The poor have the gospel preached to them. His Living words powerfully quicken the soul. Marvel not a person must be born again from above .Why wonder?

Dead are raised as new creature, not reconditioned used 29 times in the new testament.

Jesus said of his own dying Jewish flesh it profits for zero .

Matthew 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

Luke 7:22Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

Luke 20:37Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

John 12:1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.

Acts 13:30 But God raised him from the dead:

 

[Ghada]

BTW, the logic that says that freewill means that a person is able to "do" whichever, is vapid.

This definition is false.

Man having freewill is the right to choose, but is not the power to do whatever man wants. Nature limits man's choices on earth.

And God's judgment by works limits man's power to be sons of God.

And all autonomy of man choosng to disobey God, ends in the grave.

A person is indeed able to choose a course of action, but that course of action is always what God planned.

Arguing in false circles.

And can you show me how it is possible for 'free will' of your description, to make choices at all, if one is not caused to choose one thing or another?

Once again, a circular argument only made by predeterminists. Predeterminism presupposes that the spiritual things must also act as the natural things, where there is always a cause for every effect.

And so naturally, no creature on earth has any choice of action apart from natural cause. It's the circular error of carnal minds arguing the spiritual souls of men are bound by natural law of cause and effect: Men are as all animals doing only what the Creator created them to do.

Which of course must lead to the natural conclusion of carnal minds, that the Creator has to be the cause for man doing evil:

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2 Peter{2:12} But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

As well as not good according to nature itself.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another...

This proves man and woman's autonomy of will from God and nature. The cause for God giving up on them, is not the cause of their deeds, but is because of their deeds wilfully acting against God and nature.

There is no cause from man doing evil, especially not because of God the good Creator, which Scripture confirms:

Isa 52:4For thus saith the Lord GOD, My people went down aforetime into Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause.
Jhn 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

Rom 1:20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

As Jesus Christ says, there is no cause for man to sin against God and man, and especially not against his own soul.

Eze 33:11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

God asks man why he does evil to his own hurt, and gives no answer. There is no answer, because there is no cause for it.

Unlike natural cause and effect in heaven and earth, the spirits of angels and men can do evil without cause. Lucifer first did so in heaven without cause, and Adam first did on earth without cause.

Eze 28:15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Gen 2:7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

 

[Ghada]

makesends said:

Creating some for the purpose of them doing evil is not the same as to create man evil.

This avoids the argument by changing the subject. God foreknowing all people is not debated.

God predetermining what all people do, is the lie. Especially the lie that Jesus Christ predetermines anyone to do evil.

Fit the pharaoh of Exodus, with God hardening his heart, more then once, to allow the Exodus , into this.

Are you saying God makes man to do evil? Jesus Christ makes man to do evil?

If not, then you can use your on own faith in Jesus Christ, to fit how God created that man good as all men created by God, but then hsi own heart was hardened to God's will to do good for His wrongfully oppressed people.

Also, compare how God delivered His people from Egypt with how He delivered then from Babylon.

Also, where would you fit Judas into things.

Dittoes, but only now by Jesus' own chosen apostle.

Was it known that he would betray Jesus,

Yes. As all things are foreknown by God in teh beginning by the Word watching them from above.

but was picked anyway to fulfill things

No. God does not create nor choose any man for evil purposes.

The only choice of apostles Jesus made was there to be 12. One betrayed Him, and so He chose another better man, Paul.

Which shows how God can work with the cold better than the lukewarm.

or
was it merely they knew he had the propensity to be what was needed , possibly with a little prodding from above?

Was Lucifer prodded? He was created an angel of God perfect in all his ways. Was Adam prodded? He was made a living soul in the image of God. Was Cain prodded? He was created and born the same way as righteous Abel.

God does not create, choose, nor prod any man to do evil: God is not the Author of any evil doing, nor even tempts any man to do evil.

Prodding to do evil, is goading with evil purposes. They did so with Jesus, and He refused. Judas was not prodded at all to betray Jesus, certainly not by Jesus goading him to do evil. Judas went to the rulers freely.

I am firmly in the free will camp, but throughout the bible it seems as if a person, or people have been chosen to fulfill those prophesies.

True. And several choices made by God did not work out for the good, because the chosen chose to do evil with the gift, rather than good. Such as king Saul.

God gives the gift of freewill in His image to all men, and even lightens all men coming into the world by Jesus Christ, so rather than being personally responsible for any man abusing the gift, He is the Author of all men using the gift as intended for the good.

It's the same with the law: it's good, but it's not always used for the good:

1Ti 1:7Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

 

[Mr GLee]

Fit the pharaoh of Exodus, with God hardening his heart, more then once, to allow the Exodus , into this.

No change was made, Christ left his heart of stone (dead) by not watering it with the water of the word the gospel

God did not soften the Pharaohs hard heart. . . dead in trespasses and sin

Christ the husband is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul desires . He performs in us (let there be) that which he appoints to us .

Yoked with his powerful labor of love we understand our hearts were made soft by the water of the word (gospel)

Job 23:12 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.
But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:

The "let there be" and "it was God alone good power".

We have that work of Christ making our hard heart soften in these bodies of death. But would never claim the power of faith is of own self we have Zero

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

 

[Mr GLee]

Man having freewill is the right to choose, but is not the power to do whatever man wants. Nature limits man's choices on earth.

Free will is to do the "let there be will" of the Faithfull Creator of. . . . "wills"

If dying mankind chooses to both hear the will and are miraculously empower to do the will of the Father's good .pleasure. . It completes a work of the Faithful one strengthening dying creatures

Then we can understand like the apostles. Doing the will of the father our daily bread. It is the food needed to both hear and do. Yoked with him our burdens can be lighter if we d not harden our hearts in false pride

John 4:33-35King James Version33 Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Will and do one work . Both The key to understanding

Philippian 2:13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Jesus the Son of man did the will of the Holy Father with delight, others like Jonah the murmurer wanting to to die hoping God was a racists' Jew

 

[Ghada]

God's plans for his creation include his Son being killed by evil men,

Another change of subject. The plan for the Son to submit to wicked men is not debated.

The argument is when the plan was made. Neither God nor the Word planned to die at creation nor by His creatures.

That is a suicidal deathwish with evil intent for creation and the creatures. That is the devil, not Jesus Christ. And the devil's deathwish was not for himself, but for Jesus Christ.

God creates all things good for the good of His creatures, and God only planned to die in the flesh for sins, after man sinned and repented not.

God's plans for his creation include his Son being killed by evil men,

God planning at creation to die by evil men, is God making creation with evil intent for His creatures to do evil.

Planning the Son to die for sinners at creation, presupposes planning for man to sin against Him by creating them to do evil.

God's plans for his creation include his Son being killed by evil men,

If God makes men to do evil, with no freewill to do good instead, then man is only obeying the will of God to do evil.

If man has no freewill to do other than created for, then man is the same as the beasts of the field, where there can be no disobedience nor rebellion to God's will.

Any creature doing what it is created for and commanded to do by nature, cannot therefore be disobedient to the Creator by doing as intended.

And if the Creator calls it evil that is purposed by Him to do, then the Creator is evil in creating creatures to do evil.

That is not Jesus Christ, but the devil who is not the Creator. That is only the god of this world purposing and tempting all men to do evil, for the sole intent of crucifying the Son Jesus Christ.

Lucifer's purpose was to overthrow God and failed miserably, and so sought to kill God in the flesh by corrupting His creatures made in His own image.

Isa 14:12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

So do you believe Acts 2:23?

Yes.

Ghada said:
This is a truly remarkable sentence. What? God had a deathwish, so He made man to be the instrument of His death??

Yes, it is! Yet, the Bible says God deliberately planned it!

Thank you. An honest answer to an honest question.

Lucifer was the first created being with a deathwish for himself by choosing from the heart to rise up against the true God. He then had a deathwish for the Son of God, but tempting man to likewise lust from the heart against their own good Creator.

 

[Ghada]

God had a reason for Christ to die;

True. After man sinned, God and the Word planned, that He become the Lamb slain for sins of man.

Gen 3:15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The only preplanning of God and the Lamb after man sinned, was before He came in the flesh.

Christ's death was not an end in itself.

True. Dying for sins at the hands of sinful man, was only to make any man's sin exceeding sinful to all men.

Resurrecting from the dead is to bring sinners to repentance for His mercy's sake.

Rom 4:24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Basically, you translated "God caused man to become sinful" to "God created man sinful". Here, you cut God's purposes off at the death of Christ.

God purposing any creature to sin, cuts off and lies against His purpose of creation.

Rev 4:11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

There are at least two uses of the term, God's will (and similar phrases), in Scripture. I thought you already knew that.
1) His will is that we obey him (command).
2) He is not willing that any [of his elect] should perish (plan/decree).

True. Jesus Christ does not intend any man to disobey Him and die.

Hebrews{13:8} Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Only that old serpent the devil intends man to sin, and always tempts man to do so.

Jas 1:13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Is God so weak, that he can only tell people what he wants, and wait on THEM to accomplish it?

What you call weakness, Jesus calls meekness:

Mat 11:28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Ihat he can only tell people what he wants, and wait on THEM to accomplish it?

Of course, it's called faith in the word of God:

Gen 22:12And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

What you call predeterminism, is not what God calls faith. Predetermism cuts off and forbids faith.

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

The faith of predeterminst pseudo-Christian pagan fatalism is no faith at all.

Does your God fly by the seat of his pants, putting out fires, and inventing new ways to handle all the mistakes?

It wasn't by the seat of His pants but by His own hands and feet, that He planned to die for us after after Adam sinned.

Gen 3:15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

He only flies to earth when He comes a second time from heaven.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

You already said that above. It does not read like his primary purpose was to die.

Yes, it was. If His purpose was to die at creation, and making men to sin to kill Him, His primary purpose here is dying. Creation and man became only a necessary tool for His manner of death.

Only one Christ intends and tempts men to sin, for the purpose of killing the Son in the flesh:

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Gen 3:15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The death of Christ was an enormous means to an end, which is found in Rev 21 among other places.

True. It's the beginning that God intended on this earth, to dwell with man in the light forever.

But after man sinned and did evil rather than the good God intended on earth, it was necessary for God with the Word to plan on dying for our sins, and resurrect from the dead for our justification. Otherwise, after man sinned, He would need to destroy all men from the earth.

Rev 13:8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The Lamb planned to be slain for sins from the foundation of the world, not before, nor at the laying thereof.

Heb 1:20 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Gen 1:31
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

All things were good at the foundation of the world, and God rested without any evil thought nor intent for the world, and all creatures He had made.

1 Tim 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

Predeterminists accuse God of being an evil surmiser at creation, thinking evil intent toward His own creatures.

Tit 1:15Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

 

[Ghada]

Ghada said:
The true God does even tempt man to sin, much less intend His beloved creatures to do so. Any father that intends his own children to do evil, is only because he is an evil father.

"Jacob have I loved; Esau have I hated"

Thank you for another honest answer, that predeterminists accuse God of evil intent toward His own creatures, by creating them to do evil.

And they also twist Scripture to even have Him accuse Himself of such evil thinking.

The Scripture is quoted from Malachi, where God has judged Jacob righteous, and Esau wicked by their works, not by their birth.

Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

Even as the election was made after creation in the womb, not before; so was the judgment made after birth with works, not before.

Ghada said:
1Sa 24:13As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked:

Indeed it is so. Where's the problem?

The problem is that only a wicked Creator creates wicked creatures to do evil. Their wickedness proceeds from their wicked Creator.

That's not a problem for worshippers of a Christ, that they call a creator intending and making all men to do evil.

Who would create all men to do evil, but him that tempts all men to do evil? Any guesses?

Jas 1:13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Ghada said:
Any parent intending their own offspring to do evil, must raise them that way to ensure they do so. God intending His son Adam to do evil, is God raising His own son in an evil way.

No. It only took the one temptation, to which Adam succumbed.

Yes. For any parent intending children to do evil, they must raise them to do evil, not good.

God raised Adam and Eve good, but by concieving their own lust, they chose to do evil.

Jas 1:13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

The only one intending man to do evil in the garden, was the serpent tempting man to lust and sin against God.

God does not tempt any man to do evil, because God has no evil intent against His creatures, made for the good in His own image.

Godly and good parents must also suffer as God suffered, if their children rebel against them and choose evil instead.

The evil accusation against the true God intending His children to do evil, must also like all evil-parents have Him taking pleasure in their evil deeds. Afterall, for His pleasure are they created and made that way.

Rev 4:11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

What in the world are you talking about? Christ came into the garden???

Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day:

What? Jesus Christ was not God in the beginning?

Another Christ also came into the garden with evil intent for the man and women, by tempting them to do evil.

 

[Ghada]

You continue with the strawman, that I say God created man evil. Not so.

And so, creating man to do evil, is not creating man evil. Is creating man to do evil, also not creating evil men?

If not, then who is creating evil men?

Further you invent another strawman, though they are both built of the same sloppy hands, that God 'intending that evil come to pass' is 'evil intent'.

And now, intending evil is not evil intent. One's intent to do evil, is not someone's evil intent?

Next we'll be hearing how one's intent is not one's will? One intends evil to be done, but it's not one's will that evil be done?

It is God's intent for a man to do evil, but not His will for any man to do evil? God's intent is not His will?

For example, Joseph told his brothers that when the sold him to the slavers, that they "...indeed meant it for evil", but "God intended it for good."

And finally, it was good that they did evil?

Rom 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

Worse yet, it was good that they did evil, because it was God intending them to do evil.

The brothers intended the evil, not God. God only determined to make the evil done, work for the good to Joseph, and Jacob's people.

Rom 8:28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

God working evil for the good, does not make evil good, nor God the Author of evil deeds.

Isa 5:20Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Predeterminism is a theology made out of the oldest accusation against God in the Book: Man does evil, because God intends man to do evil.

Therefore, let us do evil as God intends, that good may come...

 

[Mr GLee]

True. After man sinned, God and the Word planned, that He become the Lamb slain for sins of man.

Gen 3:15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The only preplanning of God and the Lamb after man sinned, was before He came in the flesh.

The lamb of God slain from the foundation . First "let there be" good things first .

Work of two of Genesis 3:15 ( Father Bruise heel) mixed with Isaiah 53 demonstrated 2000 year ago in the garden of Gethsemane .

Signs as metaphor in parables. prophecy . . . follow the invisible work they never lead .

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

In that way it is a evil generation that does seek after a sign before they will believe. (exercise faith)

They made Jesus into a circus seal. Perform a miracle work some magic when we see with our own eyes then we will believe for a 1/2 a second
Especially today Satan the king of lying signs to wonder wonder, wonder after as if prophecy. Working overtime today our father still sending strong delusion to the who look for signs to wonders after .

Sign. . . cursers not as some sign gift (fake Charismatic ) Spiritual unseen eternal yes.

 

[Arial]

And so, creating man to do evil, is not creating man evil. Is creating man to do evil, also not creating evil men?

If not, then who is creating evil men?

Don't confuse how God created man with what man became.

 

[Ghada]

Long winded answers (like this one) is usually a sign that the response is coming from one that hasn't a sufficient grasp of the matter at hand.
Could you please sum up your point in two or three sentences?

When you're not so long winded about asking.

 

[Ghada]

Work of two of Genesis 3:15 ( Father Bruise heel)

The lie is that the Father did the bruising of the Son on the cross.

Gen 3:15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The devil bruised the Son, not the Father. The devil intended his own wicked children to do the work, not the Father.

God does not move the unrighteous to kill the righteous.

mixed with Isaiah 53 demonstrated 2000 year ago in the garden of Gethsemane .

Rev 13:8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb (being) slain from the foundation of the world.

The Lamb was first slain from the foundation of the world, to Adam and Eve when they first sinned against the Lord.

The Lamb was slain by crucifixion in the flesh on earth, when the Jews rejected Him.

The Lamb is now being crucified in the world, to men that sin against Him.

Heb 6:5If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

They made Jesus into a circus seal. Perform a miracle work some magic when we see with our own eyes then we will believe

They tempted Him to do so. True.

for a 1/2 a second
Working overtime today our father still sending strong delusion to the who look for signs to wonders after .

Also to any sinner that believed they were justified in killing the Son on a cross, and any sinner today who believes they are justified by His death on a cross, while killing Him afresh to themselves.

All sinners are made guilty for the slaying of the Lamb, only them that repent are justified by His resurrection.

Rom 4:24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

 

[Ghada]

Don't confuse how God created man with what man became.

Exactly. Well said. Good quote for future use.

Hebrews{13:8} Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Jesus creates all men good in His own image. Men corrupt themselves with their own lust.

Jas 1:14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

The angels first did so to themselves in heaven, and then men on earth do the same today.

Eze 28:15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

 

[Ghada]

He knew why they were displeasing when they robbed him of his glorious pleasure .

True. When any man sins against God's will, he acts contrary to God's purpose and pleasure of creating all men in His image.

It's only the devil's intent and pleasure for man to sin against our good Creator.

Christ does not learn from a watching us .

Gen 22:12And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Heb{5:8} Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; {5:9} And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

He calls us the watchers

True. Nother angels and men watch what men do, but only God watches what all men do, as well as the hearts.

 

[Ghada]

So, Jesus didn't have free will?

Jesus Christ creates all men in His own image. All men have His freewill granted by creation. Unlike the beasts of the field.

If men are not created with freewill, then Jesus is not the one Creator, or He does not have freewill Himself, or His will is not in His image.

 

[Ghada]

So, can you show how this is not God planning that there be evil?

Because the plan was ordained and prophesied only after man sinned, not before.

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.