Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

[Ghada]

The fact it was prophesied after does not mean it was not ordained before,

It means it was first spoken by God to heaven and earth. If anything is foreordained before the time, then it is revealed in Scripture.

1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

The only thing God ordained before the foundation of the world, was that man should speak the mystery and wisdom of God the Creator, the Word, and the Spirit.

The commandment was ordained when spoken to Adam in the garden. The Lamb slain was ordained after Adam sinned and repented not.

Ordaining the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, is as false as ordaining men to sin before creation.

though that question is secondary.

It's primary for when the Word was first spoken by God to be the Lamb slain. It was spoken from the foundation of the world when man sinned, not before nor during.

It was prophesied, and that shows God ordained it. God is not a mere oracle.

True. When God prophecies, He ordains it shall come to pass. If Scripture reveals a prophecy or commandment foreordained before spoken, then it was ordained before.

Otherwise, all prophecy of Scripture is ordained when spoken.

Gen 22:12And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Your need to make God a mere reactive power to circumstances beyond his control, as I have shown you before, renders him less than omnipotent

That's an opinion without Scripture.

True power over all things is quick, sure, and exactly right at every moment and forever after.

Heb 4:12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

, less that omniscient,

Knowing all things with God is not thinking evil of anything.

1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth...

less than first cause, less than God.

Once again, no Scripture. First cause is a pagan philosophic fatalism, that says all actions of men are pre-ordained by the first mind.

God is the good Creator, not the cause for men sinning, especially not by evilly planning man to sin at creation.

Man doing evil never came into Christ's mind when creating man, because the love of God does not think evil for any of His creation, but only takes pleasure in creating all things good.

Rev 4:11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Jhn 1:9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

 

[Arial]

To ordain is to arrange, appoint, prescribe, give order. For God to ordain evil is to arrange, appoint, prescribe, give order for evil. I think that passes for being the author and perfecter of evil But of course He is not. And He does not and cannot ordain evil. His holiness will not allow for that. Show us one passage in the Bible where it says that God ordains evil.

Perhaps I will come back later and address the rest of that nonsense.

It makes him the author of events, not the author of evil.

Is 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster. I, the Lord, do all these things.

Prov 16:4 The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

Gen 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

Acts 2:23 This Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. (Not to CHANGE the subject but read that sentence again. It utterly annihilates your definition of what God means when he uses the word foreknowledge concerning his own foreknowledge.)

Evil is already in our world, thanks to Adam, and we are everyone just like him as sinners. Evil is not a creation either. It is the absence of good, just as darkness is the absence of light. You certainly do not deny that God used evil men and their evil actions to bring about redemption. Or that he ordained it to be so.

 

[makesends]

Why do you insist on making God the author and perfecter of evil? That is an affront to God. The very indignity of such a declaration should be obvious.

God is testing us. God is looking to populate His kingdom with those who would love Him, without hard evidence of who or what He is or even if He is. That is the purpose of faith. It is believing in something or someone when there is not any experiential proof. There could be no doubt that God could, if He chose to do so, present us with absolute proof of everything that He has presented in His word. But He didn't. That would have forced everyone to bow down to him, whether they loved Him or hated Him.

John 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

What is illogical and shortsighted is to think that God is the cause of all that is bad, awful, abominable, atrocious, unacceptable in this world.

Repeated strawman. You represent my position as that God is the author of evil. That is false. He did cause that there be evil, and he did so from the beginning, but he did not create evil.

But, enough.

 

[makesends]

If anything is foreordained before the time, then it is revealed in Scripture.

Where do you find this axiomatic in Scripture? Prophecy does not equal foreordination.

Once again, and you have shown me nothing to defeat this simple logic, (except your own personal revulsion at the thought that God has planned the destruction and suffering of many), 1) that all things subsequent to Omnipotent God's creating are results of him creating, and 2) that if God knew what would result of his creating when he created, but created anyway, then he intended those results to come to pass.

 

[Mr GLee]

It makes him the author of events, not the author of evil.

Is 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster. I, the Lord, do all these things.

Prov 16:4 The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

Gen 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

Acts 2:23 This Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. (Not to CHANGE the subject but read that sentence again. It utterly annihilates your definition of what God means when he uses the word foreknowledge concerning his own foreknowledge.)

Evil is already in our world, thanks to Adam, and we are everyone just like him as sinners. Evil is not a creation either. It is the absence of good, just as darkness is the absence of light. You certainly do not deny that God used evil men and their evil actions to bring about redemption. Or that he ordained it to be so.

Yes God can created a evil withhold his hand of His mercy . . darkness comes No gospel light

 

[makesends]

(Follow through means that when you start at the beginning point---always who God is----and work your way through always keeping everything consistent with the first premise as stated, and the content of his word, the end result will be such and such

Exactly. Reformed Theology is about who God is, and 'Self Deterministic theology' in its many forms, is about man.

The gospel is not about man; nor, for that matter, is this life about man.

 

[makesends]

Man doing evil never came into Christ's mind when creating man, because the love of God does not think evil for any of His creation, but only takes pleasure in creating all things good.

And, thus you posit a god, who is subject to some humanly-derived principle of mere chance, as though it was not self-contradictory for anything to happen by chance.

No? —Else, then, you posit the notion that some of us are simply better than others, choosing right.

No? —Else, then, you posit the notion that the creature is possessing of the ability of absolute spontaneity, which brings us right back to causation by chance.

Your self-contradictory thinking descends to this: little first causes, trotting about the planet. Well, they are not the center of the universe, and God did not create this life for its own purposes, but for HIS purposes. God is the center of all things.

 

[JIM]

Exactly. Reformed Theology is about who God is, and 'Self Deterministic theology' in its many forms, is about man.

Too bad it is so wrong.

 

[JIM]

Repeated strawman. You represent my position as that God is the author of evil. That is false. He did cause that there be evil, and he did so from the beginning, but he did not create evil.

If God caused evil, then how is that different from creating evil. Admittedly He allowed evil. And that, of course, means that there must be free will. In this physical universe, evil is associated only with human beings. It is only human beings in the physical realm of this physical universe that can be sited as being evil and that from disobeying God.

 

[JIM]

It makes him the author of events, not the author of evil.

Is 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster. I, the Lord, do all these things.

Prov 16:4 The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

Gen 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

Acts 2:23 This Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. (Not to CHANGE the subject but read that sentence again. It utterly annihilates your definition of what God means when he uses the word foreknowledge concerning his own foreknowledge.)

Evil is already in our world, thanks to Adam, and we are everyone just like him as sinners. Evil is not a creation either. It is the absence of good, just as darkness is the absence of light. You certainly do not deny that God used evil men and their evil actions to bring about redemption. Or that he ordained it to be so.

God certainly can use the evil of man to bring about his purposes, but He did not create evil. Even in the wickedness of the crucifixion of His Son, God used the evil of men to accomplish His desired ends, but He didn't create or cause the evil that men did. They did that of their own free will decicions.

 

[Arial]

God certainly can use the evil of man to bring about his purposes, but He did not create evil. Even in the wickedness of the crucifixion of His Son, God used the evil of men to accomplish His desired ends, but He didn't create or cause the evil that men did. They did that of their own free will decicions.

Evil isn't a creation. And Jesus was offered up to crucifixion by the definite PLAN and FOREKNOWLEDGE of God. The PLAN was his FOREKNOWLEDGE.

 

[JIM]

Evil isn't a creation. And Jesus was offered up to crucifixion by the definite PLAN and FOREKNOWLEDGE of God. The PLAN was his FOREKNOWLEDGE.

One more time. Foreknowledge is not predestination.

 

[Arial]

One more time. Foreknowledge is not predestination.

Is the plan because of the knowledge or is the knowledge because of the plan? And the question concerns God--- not man.

 

[Ghada]

What is illogical and shortsighted is to think that God is the cause of all that is bad, awful, abominable, atrocious, unacceptable in this world.

Well said. This is the meaning behind all the pseudo-Scriptural speeches, that the Word preplanned before the world to be crucified on a cross, because He preplanned for man to sin by creation. It's the obscene theology of a suicidal Christ, seeking to die at the hands of His own creatures.

Gen 3:4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: {3:5} For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

We see here that the only Christ purposing man to sin from the beginning, is of course, the devil. The only preplanning made for man to sin, was the serpent's deciet. Lucifer is the only Christ preordaining and prophesying man's rebellion against God on earth.

The accusation of God being the devil in man's downfall on earth, opposes all Scripture saying otherwise, that God creates all things good, with pleasure, and man specifically is lightened by Christ coming into the world.

Rev 4:11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

Job 38:4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding...When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

There is no evil in God's mind to create any creature evil. When God creates anything, it is always with His good pleasure, and all the angels of God shout for joy, not for the horror of created evil creatures.

What is illogical and shortsighted is to think that God is the cause of all that is bad, awful, abominable, atrocious, unacceptable in this world.

The real question is why such pagan versions of creation is wilfully believed by Christians. The pagan mythogrophers surmised such evil intent of creators, in order to explain their own evil doing in the world. They justified their evil ways by preaching gods doing evil first and before man's creation.

Preaching a god or christ purposing and created man to do evil, is the anthropomorphism of evil doers, seeking to justify their own continued evil deeds.

Preaching the truth of Scripture, that God loves to create all His creatures good, without any evil thinking nor intent, lays the sole responsibility and judgment of any evil doing on us, not on God.

Jas 1:13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

God cannot righteously judge any of us by our works, if He makes us to do them. He would have to first judge Himself as the evil Maker of evil men.

1 Peter{1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

 

[Ghada]

THIS IS what I was referring to

Exodus 7:3-4​

3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.​

4 But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.

It could be that, as a result of Pharaoh’s hard-heartedness, God hardened Pharaoh’s heart even further, allowing for the last few plagues and bringing God’s full glory into view (Exodus 9:12; 10:20, 27).

Exactly. In Scripture it is always man that fiorst lusts against God, and some harden themselves against repentance. Adam is the first example. He was judged and dead by transgression, but he was not driven from the garden until he repented not. God first sought to soften his heart by conviction unto gpodly confession.

The Lord never pleaded with Pharoah and tried to soften His heart. From the first God by Moses commanded Pharoah to let His people go.

Pharoah had already crossed the line of reprobation with the Lord, when having the Hebrew babes murdered. The same as King Herod, whom neither Jesus nor the Spirit sought to draw to God. He already had John murdered for preaching the law to him.

 

[JIM]

Is the plan because of the knowledge or is the knowledge because of the plan? And the question concerns God--- not man.

You still do not quite comprehend God's foreknowledge. If you did, you wouldn't ask that question. God's plan uses His foreknowledge.

 

[makesends]

One more time. Foreknowledge is not predestination.

Anthropomorphism seems to pervade some posts. Some posts ignore the intimacy of God's knowledge. Maybe it's time to post on our newest forum, a thread about the Immanence of God.

But the good old concordances make it clear that God's foreknowledge implies intent/purpose, and not just foresight, concerning the subject of his foreknowing. Good philosophical reasoning also brings it out, since God created for HIS purposes, and not for ours.

Lol, I remember Saddam Hussein claiming to have routed America's troops, in the mother of all defeats. I wouldn't be very surprised if he even believed his lies.

There's a reason why TULIP depends on all 5 for the truth of any one of them. I've yet to hear any reasoning, scripture or anything else defeating even one point.

 

[JIM]

But the good old concordances make it clear that God's foreknowledge implies intent/purpose, and not just foresight, concerning the subject of his foreknowing. Good philosophical reasoning also brings it out, since God created for HIS purposes, and not for ours.

But the good old concordances that make it clear that God's foreknowledge implies intent/purpose are fraught with the same biased theology that you are presenting here. Much of God's intent/purpose derives from and/or makes use of His foreknowledge but that does not change the definition and meaning of God's foreknowledge. God's foreknowledge is complete and perfect with or without any attendant intent/purpose. God foreknows the exact time you are going to wake up tomorrow. That does not mean that He is the one that actually causes you to wake up. God foreknows exactly the clothes you will select and put on once you wake up tomorrow. That does not mean that He will make the selection for you. The determinist philosophy that you present as theology is mistaken and misguided.

 

[makesends]

But the good old concordances that make it clear that God's foreknowledge implies intent/purpose are fraught with the same biased theology that you are presenting here. Much of God's intent/purpose derives from and/or makes use of His foreknowledge but that does not change the definition and meaning of God's foreknowledge. God's foreknowledge is complete and perfect with or without any attendant intent/purpose. God foreknows the exact time you are going to wake up tomorrow. That does not mean that He is the one that actually causes you to wake up. God foreknows exactly the clothes you will select and put on once you wake up tomorrow. That does not mean that He will make the selection for you. The determinist philosophy that you present as theology is mistaken and misguided.

Never even crosses your mind that the source of anyone's worldview with its presumptions biasing their theology includes your theology, does it? And your presumptions are logically self-contradictory. Mine fit both scripture and logic, running afoul only of your worldview and presumptions.

 

[JIM]

Never even crosses your mind that the source of anyone's worldview with its presumptions biasing their theology includes your theology, does it? And your presumptions are logically self-contradictory. Mine fit both scripture and logic, running afoul only of your worldview and presumptions.

Well of course. Why didn't I think of that? What else could it possibly be but that you are right and I am wrong? Now I get it.