From Fallen Angels to Adam in the Garden

[CrowCross]

It is even more problematic to say the earth existed prior to its being created.

• And the earth existed but it was a formless and desolate emptiness before it was created.... it existed before God called it forth from the waters He'd previously gathered... waters over which His Spirit hovered when the earth was formless and desolate emptiness.

When the earth was created it was formless and void. That's what the bible teaches.

Then God took the earth which was formless and void and made it habitable.
At the time you mentioned God took the formless and void earth and separated the sea from the land.

Prior to Gen 1 the angels existed in "heaven". (The 3rd heaven) The bible doesn't mention when heaven was created.
It does mention when the sky and space were created. These would be considered as the first and second heaven.

I already presented this in post 8.
Here is what I posted.
I think the third heaven is much more than we can imagine. I believe the angels existed there for a long time. How long I don't know, but I believe they built cities, farms, transportation systems etc. in that realm.
Much of that may be speculation but I believe the speculation is suported by scripture.
Verses such as Eze 28 tells of commerce....
5 By your great skill in trading you have increased your wealth, but your heart has grown proud because of it.

Later in the chapter we read...
You were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the fiery stones.
Then...
16By the vastness of your trade,....(Satans pre-fallen occupation?)
you were filled with violence, and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace
from the mountain of God,
and I banished you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
17Your heart grew proud of your beauty;
you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor;
so I cast you to the earth;
I made you a spectacle before kings.

Satan walked on Gods holy mountain....sinned...THEN was cast to earth which shows that the mountain wasn't on earth.

 

[Josheb]

No but Job tells us they witnessed the creation....They even shouted for Joy.

Job never states any such thing, either. This has already been covered and addressed. Job states the "morning stars" and the "sons of God," witnessed the creation of the earth, not the creation of all creation.

Job 38:1-7
1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said, “Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Now gird up your loins like a man, and I will ask you, and you instruct Me! 4 Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, 5Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

It was the foundation of the earth, not the foundation of creation, that was witnessed being laid. The morning stars and the sons of God sang with joy witnessing the foundation of the earth, which is detailed as the setting of its measurements, its bases being sunk, and the laying of its cornerstone. None of that would qualify as formless, desolate, emptiness. All of that would fall within God gathering the waters below, making dry land appear and calling forth the earth, creating its vegetation and doing so in a manner in which each plant begets its own kind. These are the opposite of formlessness, the opposite of desolation, the opposite of void/emptiness. Even if verse 1 was an indication something of substance pertaining to the earth existed, none of Job 38 would apply at that point in the timeline. Job 38 is about Genesis 1:9-13, not Genesis 1:2. The qualifiers "formless and void" preclude such a reading. Foundations, measurements, bases, cornerstones, etc. are all very much about form and substance.


Why is already addressed content being repeated?

 

[Josheb]

When the earth was created it was formless and void. That's what the bible teaches.

Yes and anything formless and void does not actually exist.

Then God took the earth which was formless and void and made it habitable.

There is no "then." The "then" occurs only after the thens of verses 6 and 9. Verse 2 is correlative, not sequential.

At the time you mentioned God took the formless and void earth and separated the sea from the land.

Did I use those words? If so, then I misspoke. If not, then my words were misrepresented.

Prior to Gen 1 the angels existed in "heaven". (The 3rd heaven) The bible doesn't mention when heaven was created.
It does mention when the sky and space were created. These would be considered as the first and second heaven.

No! That is completely irrational. There can't be multiple creations and a single beginning. That's self-contradictory. The Bible does mention when heaven was created. It's stated right there in Genesis 1:8!

Genesis 1:6-8
6Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. 8 God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

The earth is a spherical object spinning around in a vast expanse we call space. Biblical cosmology has the earth surrounded by the heavens and the heavens is the area in which the birds fly (the sky), the area in which the stars exist (outer space), the area in which God's throne exists, and places like the "third heaven." If the argument is "There are no scriptures where the timeline of the multiple heavens are made but the angels were made during a point in time where scripture is silent," then I will grant you a Bronx cheer and say arguments from salience and sheer speculation are meaningless, especially when scripture does say the angels witnessed only the earth's founding and specifies it form (Job 38).

I already presented this in post 8.

Yes, and all of that post is wanting. It commits a number of logical errors.

Here is what I posted.
I think the third heaven is much more than we can imagine.

Blessedly, this discussion is not about our imagination and what we can or cannot imagine.

I believe...

Blessedly, this discussion is not about personal speculative belief, either.

...the angels existed there for a long time.

Irrelevant and unsubstantiated.

How long I don't know, but I believe they built cities, farms, transportation systems etc. in that realm.

Again, speculation is worthless.

Much of that may be speculation but I believe the speculation is suported by scripture.
Verses such as Eze 28 tells of commerce....
5 By your great skill in trading you have increased your wealth, but your heart has grown proud because of it.

Later in the chapter we read...
You were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the fiery stones.
Then...
16By the vastness of your trade,....(Satans pre-fallen occupation?)
you were filled with violence, and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace
from the mountain of God,
and I banished you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
17Your heart grew proud of your beauty;
you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor;
so I cast you to the earth;
I made you a spectacle before kings.

Satan walked on Gods holy mountain....sinned...THEN was cast to earth which shows that the mountain wasn't on earth.

Yep. All of which would mean he did so after the heavens were created. Not a single word of that even remotely indicates any angel was present prior to the creation of the heavens, or the creation of creation.








Btw, the one who subjected creation to futility was not Satan. It was God. Only the Creator can decide and determine what happens on a "global" scale, the scale of creation's entirety. Any interpretation that says a created creature has that kind of power is bad interpretation.
.

 

[CrowCross]

Job never states any such thing, either. This has already been covered and addressed. Job states the "morning stars" and the "sons of God," witnessed the creation of the earth, not the creation of all creation.

What is the creation of all creation?

The angels were created prior to Gen. I've already demonstrated that.

Job 38:1-7
1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said, “Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Now gird up your loins like a man, and I will ask you, and you instruct Me! 4 Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, 5Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

It was the foundation of the earth, not the foundation of creation, that was witnessed being laid. The morning stars and the sons of God sang with joy witnessing the foundation of the earth, which is detailed as the setting of its measurements, its bases being sunk, and the laying of its cornerstone. None of that would qualify as formless, desolate, emptiness. All of that would fall within God gathering the waters below, making dry land appear and calling forth the earth, creating its vegetation and doing so in a manner in which each plant begets its own kind. These are the opposite of formlessness, the opposite of desolation, the opposite of void/emptiness. Even if verse 1 was an indication something of substance pertaining to the earth existed, none of Job 38 would apply at that point in the timeline. Job 38 is about Genesis 1:9-13, not Genesis 1:2. The qualifiers "formless and void" preclude such a reading. Foundations, measurements, bases, cornerstones, etc. are all very much about form and substance.

The fundation of the earth was the formless and void EARTH.
I have no need to repeat that.

Why is already addressed content being repeated?

Because you want to push your unsupported opinion.

What would you like to discuss next concerning this topic?

 

[CrowCross]

Yes and anything formless and void does not actually exist.

WHAT???? The bible called that what was formless and void EARTH. I didn't write it.

The bible doesn't say that which was formless and void...didn't exist.

There is no "then." The "then" occurs only after the thens of verses 6 and 9. Verse 2 is correlative, not sequential.

Did I use those words? If so, then I misspoke. If not, then my words were misrepresented.

No! That is completely irrational. There can't be multiple creations and a single beginning. That's self-contradictory. The Bible does mention when heaven was created. It's stated right there in Genesis 1:8!

Gods throne room was created in Gen 1:8????
I don't think so.

Genesis 1:6-8
6Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. 8 God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

This is speaking of the sky and space....

The earth is a spherical object spinning around in a vast expanse we call space. Biblical cosmology has the earth surrounded by the heavens and the heavens is the area in which the birds fly (the sky), the area in which the stars exist (outer space), the area in which God's throne exists, and places like the "third heaven." If the argument is "There are no scriptures where the timeline of the multiple heavens are made but the angels were made during a point in time where scripture is silent," then I will grant you a Bronx cheer and say arguments from salience and sheer speculation are meaningless, especially when scripture does say the angels witnessed only the earth's founding and specifies it form (Job 38).

Yes, and all of that post is wanting. It commits a number of logical errors.

Blessedly, this discussion is not about our imagination and what we can or cannot imagine.

Blessedly, this discussion is not about personal speculative belief, either.

Irrelevant and unsubstantiated.

Again, speculation is worthless.

Yep. All of which would mean he did so after the heavens were created. Not a single word of that even remotely indicates any angel was present prior to the creation of the heavens, or the creation of creation.

Btw, the one who subjected creation to futility was not Satan. It was God. Only the Creator can decide and determine what happens on a "global" scale, the scale of creation's entirety. Any interpretation that says a created creature has that kind of power is bad interpretation.
.

I'll let you believe whatever you need to believe.

 

[Josheb]

What is the creation of all creation?

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

The angels were created prior to Gen. I've already demonstrated that.

That has always been asserted. It has never been demonstrated. The use of scripture and the logic used to support the assertion are lacking.

The fundation of the earth was the formless and void EARTH. I have no need to repeat that.

Neither asserting it, nor repeating it prove anything. The foundations being the formlessness has not been demonstrated or proven.

Because you want to push your unsupported opinion.

Thank you for your time, but the conversation just truned personal.

What would you like to discuss next concerning this topic?

No.

 

[CrowCross]

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Yes, heavens means expanse...the sky where birds fly and clouds form...the space where the galaxies are.
This is not a reference to the "heaven-paradise" where God lives. If it is please show a biblical reason as to why it is.

That has always been asserted. It has never been demonstrated. The use of scripture and the logic used to support the assertion are lacking.

Scripture shows the angels watching the process of Gen. They saw the foundations of the earth being created and it was formless and void.
The bible even presents this formless and void "mass covered by the deep" as earth. It's what it says... As I said before I didn't write that in the bible. It's there.
You want to make the creation of earth when dry land appeared...despite the world being called earth prior to that.

Neither asserting it, nor repeating it prove anything. The foundations being the formlessness has not been demonstrated or proven.

Then what is the foundation?

Thank you for your time, but the conversation just truned personal.

No.