Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

[Rella]

Yes, Adam was expected to!

Why? Did God create Lucifer to sin? Did God deliberately plan for Lucifer and 1/3 of this created angels to sin so that
all would wreck total h e double hockey sticks (Trying to do better) so badly that their destination will be that fiery pit
but not before touching literally every normal born (by man and woman) that has ever lived in some manner... and this was because God was expected to???
That is nonsense.
For we have been told, as it is written.... that no one will escape unless you are either as Paul said... 'All Israel Will Be Saved' in Romans 11:26. (By which he meant ethnic Israelites Jews.) Remember.... For Paul the world was divided into two types of people: Israel and everybody else and those who become born again and the born again could never have happened until Mary birthed that baby. AND the same could be said for Jesus for it was He who said in Matt 15:24 But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”... until the Gentiles got grafted in.
4000 plus years of multitudes, upon multitudes living and dieing and only a small group if Israelites would escape burning in hell or at best, simply dieing.
Did God have foreknowledge these things would happen. Absolutely... But I cannot believe he predetermined them all of them to.
I wont believe that until I learn if a supposition of mine for a very long time can be proven and it cant.

Does God, from time to time... run a little interference. YES. Answered prayer. Healings. Noah. Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah etc...

But, I can very easily explain why God would make a creation intended to sin: "This life is not for this life." Read Rev 21. God's covenant finally fulfilled. We would not know God if we did not encounter his purity, wisdom and experience his grace.

You are making a great case for FREE WILL>

I see you 'liking' the posts of @Ghada.

Not all. Some yes. Keep reading... I may even sometime, if I have not already like something you write.

Do you also consider God less than omnipotent, less than omniscient, and the Scriptures less than authoritative? Are you familiar with them enough to see that God intended from the beginning for Christ to be crucified? Read Acts 2:23 and 1 Peter 1:19-20 and Rev 13:8.

Do you also consider God less than omnipotent, less than omniscient, and the Scriptures less than authoritative? This is just silly.View attachment 995

I know scripture. Likely as well as you do.

Yes, I know that Jesus was intended to be crucified. It was the plan. It was the reason that Judas was chosen to begin with.

Did you ever consider that the heavenly Father was almost a numerologist.

Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Messiah. —Matthew 1:17

If we are to think like the first-century hearers, we must recognize that the importance of the number fourteen is that it is a multiple of (that ever-so-important number) seven. Matthew is implying that the entire flow of God's history of creating a people for himself shows that Jesus the Christ is our Sabbath rest.

Now:

Three sets of fourteen is six sets of seven. The operative number here is not really fourteen but forty-two. And no, forty-two is not the answer to life ,the universe, and everything; actually it is the precursor to the one who is the meaning of everything. Jesus Christ is the seventh week of history; he is the completion and the culmination; he inaugurates the last days.

However, when this is seen as a matter of the seventh seven, all the significance of seven and its square come into play. There are a handful of references to forty-two in the Old Testament, but none of them shed a lot of light on this situation. The most relevant prophecy may be Daniel's reference to the week of weeks:

Now listen and understand! Seven sets of seven plus sixty-two sets of seven will pass from the time the command is given to rebuild Jerusalem until a ruler—the Anointed One—comes. Jerusalem will be rebuilt with streets and strong defenses, despite the perilous times. — Daniel 9:25

True, Daniel is giving a different perspective on the narrative than Matthew, but the same theological meaning of the seventh seven: the Messiah will be the fulfillment of all things.

The meaning of forty-two is further clarified by the last book of prophecy as the time of the dominion of the nations over God's people:

But do not measure the outer courtyard for it has been turned over to the nations. They will trample the holy city for 42 months. Rev 11:2

AND

Then the beast was allowed to speak great blasphemes against GOd. And he was granted authority to do whatever he wanted for 42 months. Rev 13:5

A little light reading on the number 42:...https://biblewithus.com/biblical-meaning-of-42/

So yes, there was/is a plan . I simply don't see it as God having predestined me to be eating a piece of cheese when writing this.

 

[Mr GLee]

Angels and men have the power of autonomous will to create lust within their own hearts, and rebel against the goodness God creates all angels and men with.

Greek Angelo's translated messenger apostles. . . sent messenger. .How beautiful are their feet.

Angel a fake word not coined until the 14th century .Sounds the same different meaning. . . destroying the intended . Rather than creating a humble spirit it created one puffed up venerable that lord it over the non-venerable pew warmers like patron saints a lying wonder oral tradition passed down from the Pharisees with Sadducees .

Apostle. . sent messenger. . ,Pony Express ,Western Union, Amazon ,My wives errand boy.

Not some sort of religious word to eulogize dying flesh . A wile of the evil one Puffing up dying mankind above the authority of the living word (Sola Scriptural)

 

[makesends]

And so, the prechosen created with the will to do good, also do evil. They still overrule His good will and do evil.

This pseudo non-autonomous will fails in practice.

That is false, both in practice and in logical sequence.

The 'prechosen' are not created with the will to do good. Man (Adam) was, and that, only because he had no will to do bad. But since his sin, none of us will to do good until God births us from above.

The 'logic' of "They still overrule His good will and do evil" also fizzles measurably (fails miserably). The only 'overrule' (which is a really lousy way to put it) his command, they do not undo his decree. Their rebellion is exactly what he decreed concerning them at whatever time they rebel —whether momentarily, or continuously as all that are lost.

The 'prechosen' are not born any better nor worse than anybody else.

 

[Ghada]

Nope:

Romans 9:19-20 (KJV) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Thou wilt say this, but not Paul.

This is what some accusing people say about God. It's not a question at all, rather not an honest one, because the record is clear that wicked Pharoah did resist the will of God to let His people go.

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

The whole context of the Scriptures is about those who accuse God of unrighteousness, which in this case is God judging Pharoah, whom He raised up for His own purpose.

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

But God did not make that man wicked, nor make him to do wickedly as Pharoah. He raised of that man to be Pharoanh, the same as He raises up all kings and rulers on earth.

The fault-finding with God is based on an accusation framed in a question, which is the fallacy of a complex question:

"Who has stopped beating their wife?" Therefore, all husbands have beat their wives. All husbands are wife beaters. "Who has resisted the will of God?" Therefore, no man can resist the will of God. Man has no autonomy of free will.

And as we see in the days of the apostles, so we see today, it is only those preaching man's non-autonomy on earth, and worse that God creates some men to do evil, that accuse God of unrighteousness in a question, that says: No man can resist God, because no man is created by God with free will.

How can God justly condemn Pharoah, nor any man created by Him to do evil, without any power to choose otherwise. It's demanded of God by the unrighteous, who want to justify themselves for their own sins and trespasses, because they say, like that wicked Pharoah, God made them that way...

Nay

God's answer is nay, Jesus Christ does not create any man that way, and He is righteous in judging all men by our works.

And, the feigned question itself destroys the myth of man created without free will on earth: Only if man has not resisted His will, can the lie be true.

And yet, as with the first Adam and that Pharoah, all men have resisted the will of God and disobeyed Him. In the complex question's attempt to teach non-autonomy of will, it defeats itself by asking such an ignorant question in the first place.

Unless of course, they want to argue no man hath resisted the will of God and disobeyed Him, but all men do His will on earth.

Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

And the argument is about how God creates man, and not about how God will perform His purposes, whether men resist them or not.

God does not create nor make any person to resist and disobey Him. God is not to be faulted for judging us by our works, as though no man has power on earth to resist His will.

As in the case of Pharoah, God will use men's own chosen evil purposes against themselves, as well as turning them for the good of His own people that choose to obey Him.

Psa 7:15He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made.

Rom 8:28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

And, this a completely nonpartisan question, that people can ask from both sides. It's not an answer of how God's makes man, but only why God makes all men a certain way, as opposed to the angels in heaven and natural beasts on earth.

Psa 8:4What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;

It's not a bad question, since men created in the image of God have understanding, unlike the animals, to ask such things. Why does God create me with free will to choose to disobey Him, rather than simply create me with His good will to obey Him without choice?

The question is dismissed as rhetorical at best, with no practical fruit.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

And here is where the creation of God is not speaking of the soul, but only the phyisical body, which is the earthen vessel made for the soul of man on earth. Nowhere in Scripture, including the NT, does God ever speak of the soul being a vessel, because the soul is spirit, not made of earth.

Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The argument now replies to the natural question of why some are born whole and healthy, and others mishapen and sickly.

Jhn 9:2And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Such as the man born blind, was not because of sin or God's pleasure in making man blind, but for the glory of God to be manifest in the power of Jesus Christ:

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

And finally, the beginning of the argument is confirmed at the end: God raised up a man to be Pharoah over the children of Israel, and he did wickedly with them. He did not make the man wicked, nor raise him up to be wicked.

In like manner, God endures wicked men committed to destruction, for His own good purposes. It is not Scripture saying in any way that God creates some men to be wicked destroyers.

And the vessels of wrath and mercy are the bodies of the wicked and the good. For without the bodies they are dead, and can do neither good nor evil to anyone on earth.

And so, we see the argument of Scripture is all about God allowing the wicked to live on earth, and even raising up some to rule wickedly over others. It is not about God wickedly creating any man to do evil on earth.

And the only time any dispute about autonomy of will enters in, is when those wanting to believe they have no autonomy, wrongfully imput it into the Scripture. They then find occasion to fault God with unrighteousness for condemning their own sins and trespasses, when they accuse Him of making Pharoah and themselves that way...

Applies to Adam as well.

The autonomy of will created for man in the image of God, applies to all souls created and lighted by Christ coming into the world.

And also, the natural flesh made by Christ for Adam, applies today to all men and women on earth.

Hebrews{13:8} Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

 

[makesends]

Why? Did God create Lucifer to sin? Did God deliberately plan for Lucifer and 1/3 of this created angels to sin so that
all would wreck total h e double hockey sticks (Trying to do better) so badly that their destination will be that fiery pit
but not before touching literally every normal born (by man and woman) that has ever lived in some manner... and this was because God was expected to???
That is nonsense.

Yes, he did plan all that, and every detail that brought that to pass (edit: exception—please see post #347. That last phrase of yours, with the three question marks, doesn't make any sense to me.). I think you will at least agree that this life and everything in it, is for the purpose of bringing about the culmination that he planned from the beginning! Your problem seems to be that you don't think all this had to happen to bring that culmination about. Do you agree, at least, that sin had to be, in order for the crucifixion to come to pass?

For we have been told, as it is written.... that no one will escape unless you are either as Paul said... 'All Israel Will Be Saved' in Romans 11:26. (By which he meant ethnic Israelites Jews.) Remember.... For Paul the world was divided into two types of people: Israel and everybody else and those who become born again and the born again could never have happened until Mary birthed that baby. AND the same could be said for Jesus for it was He who said in Matt 15:24 But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”... until the Gentiles got grafted in.
4000 plus years of multitudes, upon multitudes living and dieing and only a small group if Israelites would escape burning in hell or at best, simply dieing.
Did God have foreknowledge these things would happen. Absolutely... But I cannot believe he predetermined them all of them to.
I wont believe that until I learn if a supposition of mine for a very long time can be proven and it cant.

Does God, from time to time... run a little interference. YES. Answered prayer. Healings. Noah. Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah etc...

Maybe it would be worth starting another thread on this question alone. But I am curious about what supposition (that can't be proven) it is that you have had for a long time. Maybe it can be proven? Idk.

makesends said:
But, I can very easily explain why God would make a creation intended to sin: "This life is not for this life." Read Rev 21. God's covenant finally fulfilled. We would not know God if we did not encounter his purity, wisdom and experience his grace.

You are making a great case for FREE WILL>

How so?

makesends said:
Do you also consider God less than omnipotent, less than omniscient, and the Scriptures less than authoritative? Are you familiar with them enough to see that God intended from the beginning for Christ to be crucified? Read Acts 2:23 and 1 Peter 1:19-20 and Rev 13:8.

Do you also consider God less than omnipotent, less than omniscient, and the Scriptures less than authoritative? This is just silly.View attachment 995

The link gives:
"Oops! We ran into some problems. The requested page could not be found."

But I'm glad to hear that you, at least in principle, consider God omnipotent, omniscient and the Scriptures less than authoritative. Your derivations of scripture, and the logical implications of them, however, sound somewhat different to me.

I know scripture. Likely as well as you do.

Yes, I know that Jesus was intended to be crucified. It was the plan. It was the reason that Judas was chosen to begin with.

Glad to hear it.

Did you ever consider that the heavenly Father was almost a numerologist.

What in the world does this have to do with the discussion?

Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Messiah. —Matthew 1:17

If we are to think like the first-century hearers, we must recognize that the importance of the number fourteen is that it is a multiple of (that ever-so-important number) seven. Matthew is implying that the entire flow of God's history of creating a people for himself shows that Jesus the Christ is our Sabbath rest.

Now:

Three sets of fourteen is six sets of seven. The operative number here is not really fourteen but forty-two. And no, forty-two is not the answer to life ,the universe, and everything; actually it is the precursor to the one who is the meaning of everything. Jesus Christ is the seventh week of history; he is the completion and the culmination; he inaugurates the last days.

However, when this is seen as a matter of the seventh seven, all the significance of seven and its square come into play. There are a handful of references to forty-two in the Old Testament, but none of them shed a lot of light on this situation. The most relevant prophecy may be Daniel's reference to the week of weeks:

Now listen and understand! Seven sets of seven plus sixty-two sets of seven will pass from the time the command is given to rebuild Jerusalem until a ruler—the Anointed One—comes. Jerusalem will be rebuilt with streets and strong defenses, despite the perilous times. — Daniel 9:25

True, Daniel is giving a different perspective on the narrative than Matthew, but the same theological meaning of the seventh seven: the Messiah will be the fulfillment of all things.

The meaning of forty-two is further clarified by the last book of prophecy as the time of the dominion of the nations over God's people:

But do not measure the outer courtyard for it has been turned over to the nations. They will trample the holy city for 42 months. Rev 11:2

AND

Then the beast was allowed to speak great blasphemes against GOd. And he was granted authority to do whatever he wanted for 42 months. Rev 13:5

A little light reading on the number 42:...https://biblewithus.com/biblical-meaning-of-42/

You go to a lot of trouble to say nothing relevant here. All you had to do was say the below, which you have already said in many different ways. I hope this conversation soon begins to go somewhere.

So yes, there was/is a plan . I simply don't see it as God having predestined me to be eating a piece of cheese when writing this.

There was a plan, you agree, which plan, logically, as I have said before, had to be intended in every detail —logical proof of which is in several ways, but one which I should think you would agree to is that God knew EVERYTHING that would come of his creating, and so when he created he intended every one of those things —EVERY DETAIL— to come to pass. Neither you nor anybody else I have spoken with on the four or five sites that I have frequented has ever shown me logic, nor even good reason to think otherwise. Nor does Scripture indicate otherwise, but to those who insist on self-determinism, with such pseudo-arguments as, "God is LOVE!!! Does your claim really sound like love to you???", and, "No, God does NOT predestine anyone to sin! That would make him the author of sin, and a monster!" Those objections don't even begin to answer the logical fact that if God knew the results in every detail, but created what would produce those results, then he intended those results in every detail. Instead, they deny his omnipotence and omniscience.

 

[prism]

Thou wilt say this, but not Paul.

This is what some accusing people say about God. It's not a question at all, rather not an honest one, because the record is clear that wicked Pharoah did resist the will of God to let His people go.

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

The whole context of the Scriptures is about those who accuse God of unrighteousness, which in this case is God judging Pharoah, whom He raised up for His own purpose.

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

But God did not make that man wicked, nor make him to do wickedly as Pharoah. He raised of that man to be Pharoanh, the same as He raises up all kings and rulers on earth.

The fault-finding with God is based on an accusation framed in a question, which is the fallacy of a complex question:

"Who has stopped beating their wife?" Therefore, all husbands have beat their wives. All husbands are wife beaters. "Who has resisted the will of God?" Therefore, no man can resist the will of God. Man has no autonomy of free will.

And as we see in the days of the apostles, so we see today, it is only those preaching man's non-autonomy on earth, and worse that God creates some men to do evil, that accuse God of unrighteousness in a question, that says: No man can resist God, because no man is created by God with free will.

How can God justly condemn Pharoah, nor any man created by Him to do evil, without any power to choose otherwise. It's demanded of God by the unrighteous, who want to justify themselves for their own sins and trespasses, because they say, like that wicked Pharoah, God made them that way...



God's answer is nay, Jesus Christ does not create any man that way, and He is righteous in judging all men by our works.

And, the feigned question itself destroys the myth of man created without free will on earth: Only if man has not resisted His will, can the lie be true.

And yet, as with the first Adam and that Pharoah, all men have resisted the will of God and disobeyed Him. In the complex question's attempt to teach non-autonomy of will, it defeats itself by asking such an ignorant question in the first place.

Unless of course, they want to argue no man hath resisted the will of God and disobeyed Him, but all men do His will on earth.



And the argument is about how God creates man, and not about how God will perform His purposes, whether men resist them or not.

God does not create nor make any person to resist and disobey Him. God is not to be faulted for judging us by our works, as though no man has power on earth to resist His will.

As in the case of Pharoah, God will use men's own chosen evil purposes against themselves, as well as turning them for the good of His own people that choose to obey Him.

Psa 7:15He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made.

Rom 8:28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.




And, this a completely nonpartisan question, that people can ask from both sides. It's not an answer of how God's makes man, but only why God makes all men a certain way, as opposed to the angels in heaven and natural beasts on earth.

Psa 8:4What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;

It's not a bad question, since men created in the image of God have understanding, unlike the animals, to ask such things. Why does God create me with free will to choose to disobey Him, rather than simply create me with His good will to obey Him without choice?

The question is dismissed as rhetorical at best, with no practical fruit.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

And here is where the creation of God is not speaking of the soul, but only the phyisical body, which is the earthen vessel made for the soul of man on earth. Nowhere in Scripture, including the NT, does God ever speak of the soul being a vessel, because the soul is spirit, not made of earth.

Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The argument now replies to the natural question of why some are born whole and healthy, and others mishapen and sickly.

Jhn 9:2And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Such as the man born blind, was not because of sin or God's pleasure in making man blind, but for the glory of God to be manifest in the power of Jesus Christ:

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

And finally, the beginning of the argument is confirmed at the end: God raised up a man to be Pharoah over the children of Israel, and he did wickedly with them. He did not make the man wicked, nor raise him up to be wicked.

In like manner, God endures wicked men committed to destruction, for His own good purposes. It is not Scripture saying in any way that God creates some men to be wicked destroyers.

And the vessels of wrath and mercy are the bodies of the wicked and the good. For without the bodies they are dead, and can do neither good nor evil to anyone on earth.

And so, we see the argument of Scripture is all about God allowing the wicked to live on earth, and even raising up some to rule wickedly over others. It is not about God wickedly creating any man to do evil on earth.

And the only time any dispute about autonomy of will enters in, is when those wanting to believe they have no autonomy, wrongfully imput it into the Scripture. They then find occasion to fault God with unrighteousness for condemning their own sins and trespasses, when they accuse Him of making Pharoah and themselves that way...




The autonomy of will created for man in the image of God, applies to all souls created and lighted by Christ coming into the world.

And also, the natural flesh made by Christ for Adam, applies today to all men and women on earth.

Hebrews{13:8} Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Long winded answers (like this one) is usually a sign that the response is coming from one that hasn't a sufficient grasp of the matter at hand.
Could you please sum up your point in two or three sentences?

 

[makesends]

Why? Did God create Lucifer to sin? Did God deliberately plan for Lucifer and 1/3 of this created angels to sin so that
all would wreck total h e double hockey sticks (Trying to do better) so badly that their destination will be that fiery pit
but not before touching literally every normal born (by man and woman) that has ever lived in some manner... and
this was because God was expected to???

Whoa. I missed this before: "...this was because God was expected to???" What are you talking about there —"God was expected to"? And who expected God to? What does God doing what God does, have to do with whether or not anyone expected God to do it?

That is nonsense.

Yeah, that last phrase of yours doesn't make sense to me either.

 

[Rella]

I copied part of the post from above so I can respond through it. I ran out of room so I stopped where I did

Why? Did God create Lucifer to sin? Did God deliberately plan for Lucifer and 1/3 of this created angels to sin so that
all would wreck total h e double hockey sticks (Trying to do better) so badly that their destination will be that fiery pit
but not before touching literally every normal born (by man and woman) that has ever lived in some manner... and this was because God was expected to???
That is nonsense.

Yes, he did plan all that, and every detail that brought that to pass (edit: exception—please see post #347. That last phrase of yours, with the three question marks, doesn't make any sense to me.).

You do not under stand the last sentence? Well, Ill try to explain it. Lucifer was not born and he did not hatch from an egg as far as we know ... correct? He was a created angel... Same as Gabriel and Michael ''' and all the rest. They all had their "jobs" to perform. The archangels were not the same as the others or even Lucifer. But each and every angel worshipped their creator without exception UNTIL Lucifer let his jealous side
rear up and he Lucifer became so impressed with his own beauty, intelligence, power, and position that he began to desire for himself the honor and glory that belonged to God alone.
Christianity.com suggests.... This pride represents the actual beginning of sin in the universe—preceding the fall of the human Adam by an indeterminate time.
You had said, in 335 to my comment

No more then you can explain why God would make a creation intended to sin. For if it was not free will Adam was expected to

You~ Yes, Adam was expected to!
And I asked why. Why would he have been expected to if God had deliberately made him to sin. What was the purpose of having the first couple ruin everything because the ruination was preplanned....
And I followed up with ....Did God create Lucifer to sin? Did God deliberately plan for Lucifer and 1/3 of this created angels to sin..... ending with and this was because God was expected to???
God creates all. The angels as well as humankind. If Adam was predestined and predisposed to sin because
AS you said... Yes, he did plan all that... I maintain that made no sense.....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That would include when we read in Genesis 6:1-4 that refers to the sons of God and the daughters of men. And the several suggestions as to who the sons of God were and why the children they had with daughters of men grew into a race of giants (that is what the word Nephilim seems to indicate).

This "lifestyle" was ongoing until God wiped the slate clean to start again......,.,. THE FLOOD
But that did not end it.... Did it? For things became a major SNAFU. (military meaning) even after the flood... but for some reason god chose to let it go on and on for more then 4000 years. Before Jesus bwecame a human being.
I will never believe things were as they were because that is what God wanted. However, if those angels and people were permitted free will, then God could hone those he chose and let the others flounder in the wind.
What did Jesus say????????????????????????? But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

I think you will at least agree that this life and everything in it, is for the purpose of bringing about the culmination that he planned from the beginning! Your problem seems to be that you don't think all this had to happen to bring that culmination about. Do you agree, at least, that sin had to be, in order for the crucifixion to come to pass?

YES

For we have been told, as it is written.... that no one will escape unless you are either as Paul said... 'All Israel Will Be Saved' in Romans 11:26. (By which he meant ethnic Israelites Jews.) Remember.... For Paul the world was divided into two types of people: Israel and everybody else and those who become born again and the born again could never have happened until Mary birthed that baby. AND the same could be said for Jesus for it was He who said in Matt 15:24 But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”... until the Gentiles got grafted in.
4000 plus years of multitudes, upon multitudes living and dieing and only a small group if Israelites would escape burning in hell or at best, simply dieing.
Did God have foreknowledge these things would happen. Absolutely... But I cannot believe he predetermined them all of them to.
I wont believe that until I learn if a supposition of mine for a very long time can be proven and it cant.

Does God, from time to time... run a little interference. YES. Answered prayer. Healings. Noah. Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah etc...
Click to expand...

Maybe it would be worth starting another thread on this question alone. But I am curious about what supposition (that can't be proven) it is that you have had for a long time. Maybe it can be proven? Idk.

It would need to be another thread..... It cannot be proven, but others would drag it apart so another thread will not be started on this.

Very, very, very rough outline. Not refined and not extensively explained.....

Just try to consider ... suppose that Lucifer was creating such a hoopla against God in heaven... (remember.. he is a spirit and therefor cannot be destroyed)(reason he will burn forever in hell fires) and just consider , as other angels were siding with Lucifer that God finally had enough especially if Lucifer said that the other angels are preferring him over God.

What would you do? What I think could have happened was that God did the creation thing and turned the ruling of this world over to Lucifer..
Much in the same way he turned Job over to him. (God knowing that in the end Job would be safe because of his love for God)

Here’s what the devil actually said to Jesus at the temptation in the wilderness that creates the question we were just asked: “Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to him, ‘All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me’” (Matthew 4: 8-9)
And here’s Luke 4:5–7: “And the devil took him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, and said to him, ‘To you I will give all this authority and their glory, for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours.’”

And after 4K plus years it was time for Jesus to come, first for thew Jews, then those of us who would put our faith in his shed blood.

It could have been a plan. I did not say was.

 

[Mr GLee]

You do not under stand the last sentence? Well, Ill try to explain it. Lucifer was not born and he did not hatch from an egg as far as we know ... correct? He was a created angel... Same as Gabriel and Michael ''' and all the rest. They all had their "jobs" to perform. The archangels were not the same as the others or even Lucifer. But each and every angel worshipped their creator without exception UNTIL Lucifer let his jealous side
rear up and he Lucifer became so impressed with his own beauty, intelligence, power, and position that he began to desire for himself the honor and glory that belonged to God alone.
Christianity.com suggests.... This pride represents the actual beginning of sin in the universe—preceding the fall of the human Adam by an indeterminate time.

Lucifer light bearer.

The glorious spirit of God sent to protect the glory of the creation from the creation "false pride". He became the source of false pride. . . lust of the flesh. . . lust of the eye.

Adding to prophecy "neither shall you touch". Violating the law do not add or subtract .

Deceiving Eve to represent the bride or church the weaker vessel . Adam the husband used to signify Christ. Adam received the true prophecy failed to protect Eve.

In that parable .The lust of the flesh drew then to the center the hidden tree and the lust of the eye took over .

Having touched and did not die, they ate and both eyes were opened losing innocence.

 

[makesends]

Rella said:
Why? Did God create Lucifer to sin? Did God deliberately plan for Lucifer and 1/3 of this created angels to sin so that
all would wreck total h e double hockey sticks (Trying to do better) so badly that their destination will be that fiery pit
but not before touching literally every normal born (by man and woman) that has ever lived in some manner... and this was because God was expected to???
That is nonsense.

You do not under stand the last sentence?

Well, Ill try to explain it. Lucifer was not born and he did not hatch from an egg as far as we know ... correct? He was a created angel... Same as Gabriel and Michael ''' and all the rest. They all had their "jobs" to perform. The archangels were not the same as the others or even Lucifer. But each and every angel worshipped their creator without exception UNTIL Lucifer let his jealous side
rear up and he Lucifer became so impressed with his own beauty, intelligence, power, and position that he began to desire for himself the honor and glory that belonged to God alone.
Christianity.com suggests.... This pride represents the actual beginning of sin in the universe—preceding the fall of the human Adam by an indeterminate time.

What I said was that the last phrase —"... and this was because God was expected to???" did not make sense to me. Maybe you didn't read my earlier post stating so, which asked who was expecting God to? and why was he expected to? etc. I don't even know what it is you are saying God was expected to do!

 

[makesends]

I copied part of the post from above so I can respond through it. I ran out of room so I stopped where I did


Yes, he did plan all that, and every detail that brought that to pass (edit: exception—please see post #347. That last phrase of yours, with the three question marks, doesn't make any sense to me.).

You do not under stand the last sentence? Well, Ill try to explain it. Lucifer was not born and he did not hatch from an egg as far as we know ... correct? He was a created angel... Same as Gabriel and Michael ''' and all the rest. They all had their "jobs" to perform. The archangels were not the same as the others or even Lucifer. But each and every angel worshipped their creator without exception UNTIL Lucifer let his jealous side
rear up and he Lucifer became so impressed with his own beauty, intelligence, power, and position that he began to desire for himself the honor and glory that belonged to God alone.
Christianity.com suggests.... This pride represents the actual beginning of sin in the universe—preceding the fall of the human Adam by an indeterminate time.
You had said, in 335 to my comment

You~ Yes, Adam was expected to!
And I asked why. Why would he have been expected to if God had deliberately made him to sin. What was the purpose of having the first couple ruin everything because the ruination was preplanned....
And I followed up with ....Did God create Lucifer to sin? Did God deliberately plan for Lucifer and 1/3 of this created angels to sin..... ending with and this was because God was expected to???
God creates all. The angels as well as humankind. If Adam was predestined and predisposed to sin because
AS you said... Yes, he did plan all that... I maintain that made no sense.....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That would include when we read in Genesis 6:1-4 that refers to the sons of God and the daughters of men. And the several suggestions as to who the sons of God were and why the children they had with daughters of men grew into a race of giants (that is what the word Nephilim seems to indicate).

This "lifestyle" was ongoing until God wiped the slate clean to start again......,.,. THE FLOOD
But that did not end it.... Did it? For things became a major SNAFU. (military meaning) even after the flood... but for some reason god chose to let it go on and on for more then 4000 years. Before Jesus bwecame a human being.
I will never believe things were as they were because that is what God wanted. However, if those angels and people were permitted free will, then God could hone those he chose and let the others flounder in the wind.
What did Jesus say????????????????????????? But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

I think you will at least agree that this life and everything in it, is for the purpose of bringing about the culmination that he planned from the beginning! Your problem seems to be that you don't think all this had to happen to bring that culmination about. Do you agree, at least, that sin had to be, in order for the crucifixion to come to pass?

YES



It could have been a plan. I did not say was.

In other words, God had to resort to plan B, because he couldn't foresee plan A failing?

Consider that he made only ever made plan A, which included a supposed failure —to wit, rebellion and sin of his creatures— so that his real plan for the ages (redemption and subsequent glorification of the members of the Bride of Christ being 'with Him and He with them', would be entirely successful in every specific detail.

This life is not for this life.

 

[Rella]

Rella said:
Why? Did God create Lucifer to sin? Did God deliberately plan for Lucifer and 1/3 of this created angels to sin so that
all would wreck total h e double hockey sticks (Trying to do better) so badly that their destination will be that fiery pit
but not before touching literally every normal born (by man and woman) that has ever lived in some manner... and this was because God was expected to???
That is nonsense.

What I said was that the last phrase —"... and this was because God was expected to???" did not make sense to me. Maybe you didn't read my earlier post stating so, which asked who was expecting God to? and why was he expected to? etc. I don't even know what it is you are saying God was expected to do!

Who was it that said..... in reply 335????????????????

No more then you can explain why God would make a creation intended to sin. For if it was not free will Adam was expected to

Yes, Adam was expected to!

That ws you.

I merely was asking Why?

If God deliberately planned for Lucifer and 1/3 of His created angels to sin ..... do you honestly believe this was because God was expected to??? WHY... for what purpose.

4000 plus years of created mankind all deliberately intended to sin?

YES, I KNOW THAT ALL HAVE SINNED. EVEN I. BUT THAT WAS BY DESIGN?

Lucifer was created. Adam was created. Both with an evil heart????

I ask again... WHY?

And at what point was Jesus supposed to make an entry to save those that he would? How many people had to meet destruction before
hope arrived. And that hope was only for the lost sheep of Israel. Meaning the rest were definitely made for destruction.

I dont and wont buy it. If that is your choice. Fine.

It is your choice just as mine is mine and Free Will is mine for it checks all the boxes.

 

[Rella]

In other words, God had to resort to plan B, because he couldn't foresee plan A failing?

Consider that he made only ever made plan A, which included a supposed failure —to wit, rebellion and sin of his creatures— so that his real plan for the ages (redemption and subsequent glorification of the members of the Bride of Christ being 'with Him and He with them', would be entirely successful in every specific detail.

This life is not for this life.

This life is not for this life.

Who ever said it was? Not I. I only live here I am no longer a part of this world.

As to ~ In other words, God had to resort to plan B, because he couldn't foresee plan A failing?

God never has to resort to anything. God would know that something was going to fail.

Do you not believe that God could, at any moment, if He chooses, start or stop anything He wants that is going on , on the ball of mud we are stuck on presently?

I do. I believe, in part because I have experienced or know some who have, answered prayer. Such that if it were not for divine interference
it would not have happened.

Let me ask you this... and lets leave any though of Lucifer and anything from the heavens out of things.

Why do you think God did the creation to begin with? (And for the sake of reasoning lets not go into those thoughts that this world came to be in anything other then the 7 days that Genesis suggests?

Mankind has a brain to think, so it was not as if He was creating a giant ant farm.

Mankind has a brain to think so it was not like He was creating world wide Gladiator competitions. ( Though we are not far from it)

So ~ Why do you think God did the creation to begin with?

He had His angels. He had ... the rest of the trinity. NO... DONT START IT HERE. So He was not alone.

 

[Mr GLee]

In other words, God had to resort to plan B, because he couldn't foresee plan A failing?

Consider that he made only ever made plan A, which included a supposed failure —to wit, rebellion and sin of his creatures— so that his real plan for the ages (redemption and subsequent glorification of the members of the Bride of Christ being 'with Him and He with them', would be entirely successful in every specific detail.

This life is not for this life.

Yes plan A . . ."Let there be and it was good" The law of faith (belief)

Not plan B. . . "Let there be" . trusting something will happen ..wondering, wondering, wondering . . . purgatory Limbo????

An example My wife who I trust. By faith (her plan ) sends me as a apostle (sent messenger) on a adventure to the supermarket with a written list not to ad to or subtract from .

Upon completing the work of her faith (plan) I received the apostles reward. Two fresh from the oven home made honey flavored peanut butter cookies and a cold glass of milk.

Faith is a "two fold" work. Christ works in us to both reveal His will as it is writen and empower new creatures to do it to the honor of the father .

The kind of food (spiritual) the other apostles knew not of at first .Food again both to will and empower dying mankind to finish the work strengthened of the father .

John 4:33-35King James VersionTherefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

No different than the way of honey flavored peanut butter cookies and milk .

Two kinds of ways. .Ways Power it was good. Or no Power. . dead

The land of milk and honey

Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Christ in us Emanuel with us. The Way. Yoked with his labor of love our burdens can be lighter with a living hope beyond what the eyes see.

 

[makesends]

If God deliberately planned for Lucifer and 1/3 of His created angels to sin ..... do you honestly believe this was because God was expected to??? WHY... for what purpose.

"...because God was expected to WHAT???? And who was expecting him to??? And What in the world produced that line??? How does that make any sense??? Where do you come up with that structure, "BECAUSE God was expected to"??? God doesn't do ANYTHING as a result of the fact that someone expects him to do it.


It's like you're talking a different language and mistranslating it to English. Do you mean something different with the words, "because" and "expected"?

If you mean, by "God was expected to", that God was expected to deliberately plan for Lucifer and 1/3 of His created angels to sin, the sequence makes no sense to me. How in the world is the supposed 'fact' that God was expected to deliberately plan xx, become THE REASON he did deliberately plan xx? And who here (or anywhere, for that matter) expected him to deliberately plan xx.

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
What I said was that the last phrase —"... and this was because God was expected to???" did not make sense to me. Maybe you didn't read my earlier post stating so, which asked who was expecting God to? and why was he expected to? etc. I don't even know what it is you are saying God was expected to do!

Who was it that said..... in reply 335????????????????

I just re-read #335. Unless I'm blind, nobody there said "God was expected to" do anything.

Yes, Adam was expected to!

That ws you.

Was it a typo, doubled down on, when you said, "God was expected to"?

I do say that Adam was expected to sin, which I agree means that Adam's choice was not altogether autonomous. Is it from there we need to proceed, and forget the mis-phrase, "God was expected to"?

I merely was asking Why?

Are you asking why God would intend for Adam and his progeny to sin? God would intend for mankind to be in sin so that he could redeem some, for his particular purposes concerning them.

If God deliberately planned for Lucifer and 1/3 of His created angels to sin ..... do you honestly believe this was because God was expected to??? WHY... for what purpose.

4000 plus years of created mankind all deliberately intended to sin?

YES, I KNOW THAT ALL HAVE SINNED. EVEN I. BUT THAT WAS BY DESIGN?

Yep. That was all by design —for God's own reasons and purposes—I should think it was rather obvious why, even to us, who are become the result of his plan—redemption!— ...all except the phrase, "...because God was expected to" which still makes no sense to me. What does God being expected to do anything, have to do with this?

HEY! Do you maybe mean, Adam (etc) sinning "because God expected him to."?

Lucifer was created. Adam was created. Both with an evil heart????

No. I did not say, nor do I believe, that they were created with an evil heart. But yes, they both rebelled.

I ask again... WHY?

And at what point was Jesus supposed to make an entry to save those that he would? How many people had to meet destruction before
hope arrived. And that hope was only for the lost sheep of Israel. Meaning the rest were definitely made for destruction.

"Jesus [was] supposed to make an entry to save those he would" at the precise point that he did so. "...in the fullness of time."(Gal 4:4)

By "lost sheep of Israel", if you mean the Body of the redeemed, yes, that is what God intended. But if you mean Jews, no, that was to whom he was sent, who rejected him, and that was intended to be for the sake of the Gentiles. The Gentiles were not made for destruction except those for whom he was not the substitutionary atonement.

But yes, there are those he chose, and those he did not choose, to redeem. They were made for destruction, and that, for his own glory. Their primary purpose is not their destruction, but their use for his glory, as described in Romans 9:22-23.

I dont and wont buy it. If that is your choice. Fine.

It is your choice just as mine is mine and Free Will is mine for it checks all the boxes.

Well, no, it doesn't check all the boxes. It is both illogical and it denies the teaching of Scripture. Answer specifically, just for starters, Ephesians 2 (not by works), and Romans 8 (of the flesh), and John 3 (born from above).

 

[makesends]

This life is not for this life.

Who ever said it was? Not I. I only live here I am no longer a part of this world.

Yet you posit the notion that he mistakenly made something that goes wrong, as though his intention was that it was made for its own sake. He did not make this temporal world to watch sentient creatures running about being good. He made it for the sake of the final product, which will indeed come about at the end, and this temporal existence is FOR THAT PURPOSE.

As to ~ In other words, God had to resort to plan B, because he couldn't foresee plan A failing?

God never has to resort to anything. God would know that something was going to fail.

Well, then! What more do you need, to realize that if God knew it was going to fail, but created it anyway, that he INTENDED for it to fail? It was worth the trouble, for what is produced by that means! HELLO!

Do you not believe that God could, at any moment, if He chooses, start or stop anything He wants that is going on , on the ball of mud we are stuck on presently?

Sure he could! He does it a lot!

I do. I believe, in part because I have experienced or know some who have, answered prayer. Such that if it were not for divine interference
it would not have happened.

Answered prayer does not mean that God did not intend for that person to pray. "For it is God who works in us both to will, and to do, of his own [purposes].

Let me ask you this... and lets leave any though of Lucifer and anything from the heavens out of things.

Why do you think God did the creation to begin with? (And for the sake of reasoning lets not go into those thoughts that this world came to be in anything other then the 7 days that Genesis suggests?

Your question demands an answer that takes the whole of time and creation into account. *bangs head on wall* God made a people for himself, to be with him in Heaven, and he with them, face to face, for his own delight, to his glory and praise. What he had in mind was a completely glorified being that even the angels will not be.

Mankind has a brain to think, so it was not as if He was creating a giant ant farm.

Mankind has a brain to think so it was not like He was creating world wide Gladiator competitions. ( Though we are not far from it)

So ~ Why do you think God did the creation to begin with?

He had His angels. He had ... the rest of the trinity. NO... DONT START IT HERE. So He was not alone.

You make it sound like he made us because he NEEDED something. No, he needs nothing, but he delights in the worship that he so completely deserves, and the angels can't give him that in the fullness that we will give it. Only those made in his image, to be revealed when we see him as he is (and not as we suppose him to be, during this temporal passage), can fully enjoy him, fully be WITH him in that particular valid way —IN HIM— loving him as he loves himself.

 

[Rella]

@makesends

Well, guess I am being handed my hat.

I cannot quote your reply here and it took 5 minutes to have this screen work.

No matter..

I'll leave with out a fuss simply because you are a master of contradicting yourself to make your points.

Well done.

One final comment;

You said... "You make it sound like he made us because he NEEDED something."

After you replied above....

No more then you can explain why God would make a creation intended to sin. For if it was not free will Adam was expected to

You~ Yes, Adam was expected to!
You never answered one of my questions on why He would do such a thing.... knowing it would carry forward in everyman.

And you finish with " No, he needs nothing, but he delights in the worship that he so completely deserves, and the angels can't give him that in the fullness that we will give it.

Everything you have said here is so suggestive of an opposite..... my only comment is whatever.

Now. Before I leave this subject I might suggest you get yourself... online... a 'good' copy of Enoch and read up on the angels.

Toodles

 

[Ghada]

Excuse me????? God doesn't know why??????

Well, He certainly knows your answer why: Because your Christ creates men that way.

But since that's only a lie against Jesus Christ the true God and good Creator of all men, then He asks why anyone He creates would choose to do evil against Him, rather than do the good He creates all men and angels for.

And so, your amazement is understandable, since neither you nor your Christ would ever think to even ask such a thing, much less not have an answer for it. If Christ creates men that way, then of course that's why they act that way...

God has foreseen every lie of the devil and men to come, and has prewritten Scriptures to expose them. In this case, Jesus Christ just asking the question shows no angel nor man is created by Him that way.

Please please demonstrate this from Scripture.

Read the Scriptures already given, where God asks the question why people disobey Him to their own destruction. And nowhere does He answer that question. When you show a Scripture with God saying why men resist Him and do bad, then we'll all know.

Until then, the Christ you preach is unknown by Jesus Christ of the Bible, who openly asks why any of His created creatures would choose to do evil against Him, when He is pleased to create all men to do His good pleasure.

Jhn 1:9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Rev 4:11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

 

[Mr GLee]

Yet you posit the notion that he mistakenly made something that goes wrong, as though his intention was that it was made for its own sake. He did not make this temporal world to watch sentient creatures running about being good. He made it for the sake of the final product, which will indeed come about at the end, and this temporal existence is FOR THAT PURPOSE.

Well, then! What more do you need, to realize that if God knew it was going to fail, but created it anyway, that he INTENDED for it to fail? It was worth the trouble, for what is produced by that means! HELLO!

Sure he could! He does it a lot!

Answered prayer does not mean that God did not intend for that person to pray. "For it is God who works in us both to will, and to do, of his own [purposes].

Your question demands an answer that takes the whole of time and creation into account. *bangs head on wall* God made a people for himself, to be with him in Heaven, and he with them, face to face, for his own delight, to his glory and praise. What he had in mind was a completely glorified being that even the angels will not be.

You make it sound like he made us because he NEEDED something. No, he needs nothing, but he delights in the worship that he so completely deserves, and the angels can't give him that in the fullness that we will give it. Only those made in his image, to be revealed when we see him as he is (and not as we suppose him to be, during this temporal passage), can fully enjoy him, fully be WITH him in that particular valid way —IN HIM— loving him as he loves himself.

Yes the apostles knew not of the food needed to both hear the will and empower Jesus the Son of man needed to finish it to the fathers glory according to Philippians 2:13 with John 4:33-35

Amen God is not served by the dying hands as a will of mankind .He has no needs but satisfies all his own .Therefore as informed in Acts 17 he is not worshiped by dying human hands as a will

He can use a unbeliever to preach his gospel just as easy as one who does believe .

It can be seen with the use of a Ass to represent the unredeemed and a lamb to represent redemption.

Exodus 13:13 And every firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb; and if thou wilt not redeem it, then thou shalt break his neck: and all the firstborn of man among thy children shalt thou redeem.

Exodus 34:20 But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.

The Lord uses a Ass as a apostle sent with prophecy. Its living words powerfully stopped the madness of the false prophet

Numbers 22:28And the Lord opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The simplicity of the gospel a living God. God saving dying mankind .

No help from the peanut gallery needed