TULIP Explained

[Dave_Regenerated]

Do people actually believe that the Holy Spirit teaches them spiritually in some way where they get to tell everybody else stuff about the New heavens and the New earth, which they don't actually get from reading the words in the scriptures plainly? I've never ever seen anybody say they learnt about the New heavens and the New earth by way of spiritual illumination of the scriptures supernaturally. So they must have either read all about it elsewhere and then present it as if it is somehow God's meaning.

 

[ReverendRV]

Do people actually believe that the Holy Spirit teaches them spiritually in some way where they get to tell everybody else stuff about the New heavens and the New earth, which they don't actually get from reading the words in the scriptures plainly? I've never ever seen anybody say they learnt about the New heavens and the New earth by way of spiritual illumination of the scriptures supernaturally. So they must have either read all about it elsewhere and then present it as if it is somehow God's meaning.

I say some people believe that; but it doesn't happen...

 

[Arial]

Dispensationalist?

A, pre, mid or post?

I am not a dispensationalist. And I do not believe the Bible teaches a pre- mid-or post rapture pertaining to a specific 7 year trib period. One has to project that view onto my words. They aren't actually in them. Rev tells us that the new Jerusalem will come down from heaven. The true Jerusalem then is there now. See scriptures pertaining to the building of the ark and the OT temple as being copies of what is in heaven. How much of this in Rev is literal I cannot say. If in the new creation God rules from an earthly throne that is in Jerusalem I do not know. He did pick Jerusalem (the geographic location) above all other locations and declared it holy because of His covenantly being present with His people, from which to dwell with first the Israelites. We will have to wait and see.

Topic of OP is TULIP. We are kind of going astray here.

 

[Ritajanice]

In his image is spiritual, for God is Spirit. The NT reveals his image includes righteousness, holiness and knowledge of him (Eph 4:24, Col 3:10).

Therefore Adam and Eve were spiritual and had that perfect relationship with God...then threw it down the drain.

Yet, it seems we have more knowledge than they had, as in..we wouldn’t dare go against God as a Born Again..not if he’s spoken to us..to our heart and you certainly know when he’s done that...

Even the devil couldn’t trick me ..to go against the word of God....God told me to stay away from a person...no way would I go anyway near them.

He’s also told me not to have relations with a man outside of marriage...I have remained faithful to God for over 30 yrs..if I’m meant to marry , he will bring me a husband...if not, then I stay single...he knows my hearts desires.

 

[ReverendRV]

Therefore Adam and Eve were spiritual and had that perfect relationship with God...then threw it down the drain.

Yet, it seems we have more knowledge than they had, as in..we wouldn’t dare go against God as a Born Again..not if he’s spoken to us..to our heart and you certainly know when he’s done that...

Even the devil couldn’t trick me ..to go against the word of God.

I say Adam didn't have a perfect relationship with God, but instead had a Good relationship with God. We have more knowledge than Adam had, because we have the Knowledge of Evil...

 

[Arial]

Therefore Adam and Eve were spiritual and had that perfect relationship with God...then threw it down the drain.

Yet, it seems we have more knowledge than they had, as in..we wouldn’t dare go against God as a Born Again..not if he’s spoken to us..to our heart and you certainly know when he’s done that...

Even the devil couldn’t trick me ..to go against the word of God....God told me to stay away from a person...no way would I go anyway near them.

OP title: Tulip Explained.

 

[Ritajanice]

I say Adam didn't have a perfect relationship with God, but instead had a Good relationship with God. We have more knowledge than Adam had, because we have the Knowledge of Evil...

We can’t prove either way, what type of relationship they had with him...only that they were made in his image.

 

[Ritajanice]

OP title: Tulip Explained.

Maybe point that out to the others also...were all off topic not just me!..please don’t single me out.just seen you edited your post to Eleanor and told her to stay on topic..

We will start another topic..won’t come in here again.....bye bye..

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

I say some people believe that; but it doesn't happen...

I'm not a charismatic either but I do believe in the illumination of the scriptures. I just don't think that means the same thing as the plain reading of the text in the Bible being understood rationally as opposed to intuitively. I would also say that the general description of illumination you may read in Christian literature is also a different type of phenomenon that is separate from the other two, in that there is a depth to the written word that requires meditation to understand better intellectually but that seems to have a somewhat supernatural character to it, too.

When it comes to concepts like the New Heavens and the New earth, or the non-literal types of language used, different genres of literature etc., I'm saying I have never come across any Christian ever that claimed to exegete such passages via the Holy Spirit giving an interpretation in plain language that isn't the product of intellectual speculation. Whatever charismatics may claim, since I perceive that all of them are frauds (not the gullible church members so much, they are just bamboozled without knowing it) and I don't watch any of that stuff or go to such churches, I'm not very bothered!

 

[Arial]

Agreed, that is the classical/main stream Calvinist opinion. Classical Calvinists like R.C. Sproul also admit that they can't make all the pieces of the puzzle logically together using this Classical Calvinists position.
Interestingly, Classical Calvinist don't believe in FREE WILL (making decisions independently from God) until they confront evil at which time they either claim "mystery" or FREE WILL does exist.

Calvinist do not teach that man has no will or that he does not freely make choices. It deals with the condition of our will when it comes to our choosing Christ ( as the free will argument is that we choose Christ, God doesn't choose us and give us to Christ.) Our will, is so bound by sin as is all the rest of us that it will not, and cannot act in a way contrary to its strongest desire. It is our desires that move our will and our desire is for sinful things.

 

[Arial]

Maybe point that out to the others also...were all off topic not just me!..please don’t single me out.just seen you edited your post to Eleanor and told her to stay on topic..

We will start another topic..won’t come in here again.....bye bye..

You are welcome here but the topic is the topic. And I am working my way through the posts now to round up the strays (topic wise) with a gentle reminder. You were not singled out.

 

[Arial]

I'm not a charismatic either but I do believe in the illumination of the scriptures. I just don't think that means the same thing as the plain reading of the text in the Bible being understood rationally as opposed to intuitively. I would also say that the general description of illumination you may read in Christian literature is also a different type of phenomenon that is separate from the other two, in that there is a depth to the written word that requires meditation to understand better intellectually but that seems to have a somewhat supernatural character to it, too.

When it comes to concepts like the New Heavens and the New earth, or the non-literal types of language used, different genres of literature etc., I'm saying I have never come across any Christian ever that claimed to exegete such passages via the Holy Spirit giving an interpretation in plain language that isn't the product of intellectual speculation. Whatever charismatics may claim, since I perceive that all of them are frauds (not the gullible church members so much, they are just bamboozled without knowing it) and I don't watch any of that stuff or go to such churches, I'm not very bothered!

Back to the topic of TULIP please.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

I say Adam didn't have a perfect relationship with God, but instead had a Good relationship with God. We have more knowledge than Adam had, because we have the Knowledge of Evil...

Genesis is obviously mythological or symbolical in some senses. It is a spiritual piece of ancient writing, not a history textbook meant for unspiritual people. The word "mythology" doesn't mean something completely made up out of thin air with no history or other components of reality added with it. I think a lot of people make that mistake when they talk about this.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Back to the topic of TULIP please.

TULIP is easy to figure out. Since one of the hot topics was the T for Total Depravity, and all notable theologians never claim that the fall is complete or "Total" but that remnants of the Adamic state have carried over into all humanity, it is safe to question the usage of the word "Total" itself. This should not be controversial or necessary to argue with. It's literally like saying 1+1=2

 

[ReverendRV]

We can’t prove either way, what type of relationship they had with him...only that they were made in his image.

Why can't we prove it?

 

[Arial]

Do people actually believe that the Holy Spirit teaches them spiritually in some way where they get to tell everybody else stuff about the New heavens and the New earth, which they don't actually get from reading the words in the scriptures plainly? I've never ever seen anybody say they learnt about the New heavens and the New earth by way of spiritual illumination of the scriptures supernaturally. So they must have either read all about it elsewhere and then present it as if it is somehow God's meaning.

The topic is TULIP.

 

[Ritajanice]

Why can't we prove it?

Show me in scripture where we can prove it then?

Are we on topic?..as the OP wants us to stay on TULIP topic.
Maybe we need to start another topic.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

The topic is TULIP.

Then don't talk about the New Heavens and the New earth.

 

[Arial]

TULIP is easy to figure out. Since one of the hot topics was the T for Total Depravity, and all notable theologians never claim that the fall is complete or "Total" but that remnants of the Adamic state have carried over into all humanity, it is safe to question the usage of the word "Total" itself. This should not be controversial or necessary to argue with. It's literally like saying 1+1=2

Interesting arguing seems to be your concern. I explained in the OP that accuracy was sacrificed for an acronym and that the doctrine actually teaches utter depravity and I explained what that means and showed how we find that in the Bible. Which has nothing to do with remnants of the Adamic state (whatever you say that is) carrying over into all humanity. I would hope that these notable theologians you mention actually explain what they mean as that would be necessary to have a pro/con debate on the matter.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Interesting arguing seems to be your concern. I explained in the OP that accuracy was sacrificed for an acronym and that the doctrine actually teaches utter depravity and I explained what that means and showed how we find that in the Bible. Which has nothing to do with remnants of the Adamic state (whatever you say that is) carrying over into all humanity. I would hope that these notable theologians you mention actually explain what they mean as that would be necessary to have a pro/con debate on the matter.

I am not arguing with you. I didn't even talk to you. You just made that up out of thin air to argue with me.

If you don't like language that isn't just Biblical then I think you are probably just way too dogmatic for the tastes of most people. Sorry. I will not engage in hairsplitting with a person that addresses the person as part of their argument instead of the things they say. You need to brush up on those skills. That's the last thing I will say to you unless you only address the points made and the things said instead of me as a person.