TULIP Explained

[Dave_Regenerated]

Sure, no problem. You asked me the question and I replied, correct?

Exactly! You need to know the facts before one can come to a conclusion, yes?

Not so fast, buddy. You asked me to show you the exact word. So, now you understand that if the teaching is present and the exact word is not, is doesn't negate the concept, correct?

Asked and answered. Your limited by your bias eyewear, you want to locate something good that remains in fallen man. As we have pointed out already, that people can preform good deeds for other people, do random acts of kindness even. But even these acts are considered filthy rags before God. Paul even states in Romans 4 that if Abraham was justified by works, it's not before God! Why not?

I'm sorry if you don't like my replies. But they do address your question. The sinner's conscience is bent, it is warped, but not destroyed. No matter what we do or how charitable our works are, they will never measure up. This is all I am saying.

Now in regards to a sinner's conscience, is this the basis or ground upon their own salvation?​

You are way too past dogmatic to be reasoned with. I will try one last time.

Doing works is not the same thing as having a conscience in your mind or heart or soul, is it?

 

[Ladodgers6]

You are way too past dogmatic to be reasoned with. I will try one last time.

Doing works is not the same thing as having a conscience in your mind or heart or soul, is it?

Okay, I'll play along. What is it? Please be as detailed as possible.

 

[Ladodgers6]

You are way too past dogmatic to be reasoned with. I will try one last time.

Doing works is not the same thing as having a conscience in your mind or heart or soul, is it?

Please stop with the baseless accusations. Let's just debate the topics, thanks.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Please stop with the baseless accusations. Let's just debate the topics, thanks.

I did not ask you a question only for you to ask me the same question back. Please respond normally.

Please tell me why you think the human conscience is totally depraved.

 

[Ladodgers6]

I did not ask you a question only for you to ask me the same question back. Please respond normally.

Please tell me why you think the human conscience is totally depraved.

Asked and answered. We're going in circles, so with that, I bid you a farewell.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Asked and answered. We're going in circles, so with that, I bid you a farewell.

You aren't good at answering questions are you?

 

[fastfredy0]

Now with God determining Adam would fall, would make God the author of evil, yes?

One has to define "author of sin" to answer your question. People use the term but rarely define it. That being said, the thesis of my post was: "Adam was not free to do other than what God had determined He would do (Acts 17:28 in him we live and breathe and have our being"). I backed it up with premises that you are free to affirm or find error.
I did not offer a definition of "author of sin".

I believe in the Classical Calvinist position that God allowed the Fall.

Agreed, that is the classical/main stream Calvinist opinion. Classical Calvinists like R.C. Sproul also admit that they can't make all the pieces of the puzzle logically together using this Classical Calvinists position.
Interestingly, Classical Calvinist don't believe in FREE WILL (making decisions independently from God) until they confront evil at which time they either claim "mystery" or FREE WILL does exist.

There is a difference, because by God allowing it would give Adam a Total Free-Will to choose either way.

God allowing "X" or "Y" does not prove or disprove Free-Will exists. God's allowing does not address the cause of a person's actions. By way of example: An arminian would say God "allows" us to believe salvificly or not. I'm sure you agree that this belief does not prove 'free will'. God allowing something to happen is the same as God determining something will happen and then allowing it to happen.
Aside: you did not define free will so I am assuming you assert that Free Will means to do something independent of God control. This is not possible unless God can 'see into the future' which Calvinists deny with good reason.

 

[fastfredy0]

You are being dogmatic here. If fallen doesn't mean Totally fallen, then the word "Total" is probably not the best word to use. That is basic reason, isn't it?

I think you may be stuck on the definition of Total depravity.

Here's a definition from https://www.gotquestions.org/total-depravity.html ...
Because the name “total depravity” can cause people to have wrong ideas about what is meant, some people prefer to use terms like “total inability,” “righteous incapability,” “radical corruption” or even “moral inability.”
...
There is a common misconception regarding total depravity. Total depravity does not mean that man is as wicked or sinful as he could be, nor does it mean that man is without a conscience or any sense of right or wrong. Neither does it mean that man does not or cannot do things that seem to be good when viewed from a human perspective or measured against a human standard. It does not even mean that man cannot do things that seem to conform outwardly to the law of God. What the Bible does teach and what total depravity does recognize is that even the “good” things man does are tainted by sin because they are not done for the glory of God and out of faith in Him (Romans 14:23; Hebrews 11:6)

At https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/tulip-and-reformed-theology-total-depravity
In the Reformed tradition, total depravity does not mean utter depravity. We often use the term total as a synonym for utter or for completely, so the notion of total depravity conjures up the idea that every human being is as bad as that person could possibly be.
The idea of total in total depravity doesn’t mean that all human beings are as wicked as they can possibly be. It means that the fall was so serious that it affects the whole person.

Before you were saved, were you completely and totally depraved in every possible way? Yes or no?

No ... assuming I use your definition of Total Depravity
Yes ... assuming I use the Reformed definition of Total Depravity.

 

[brightfame52]

The T in Tulip is TOTAL DEPRAVITY. Not just TOTAL. LOL

Before you were saved, were you completely and totally depraved in every possible way? Yes or no?

Before one is regenerated and saved, he or she is totally dead to God Spiritually, unable to produce any spiritual activity, just like if a person is dead physically, they cant perform any physical activity. Rom 5:15


But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

 

[Marilyn C]

Eph 1:3 -4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him.

The "whoever" are those who put their trust in God, who was triune both before and after the incarnation. The whoever are those who God will bring to faith

Hi Arial,

I have been thinking perhaps we can have our discussion on a good foundation first of what we do agree on and then move on to what we don`t. For I see that certain truths need to be acknowledged so we can understand each other. I see where you are coming from and why you think as you do, however, you don`t understand what I am trying to say for there are blockages. And we`ll get to those if you want to perserve in our discussion. Sorry for the time lag but due to being in different parts of the global, that is how it must be. But then it gives us time to think and respond.

So, what do we agree on.

1. When Christ ascended the Father made Him Head of the Body. (Eph. 1: 22)
2. The Body of Christ is the `new man.` (Eph. 2: 15)
3. The Body of Christ is being built up to maturity in Christ. (Eph. 4: 13)
4. The Body of Christ are kingpriests. (Rev. 1: 6)
5. The Body of Christ will rule with Christ on His throne, (authority and power). (Rev. 3: 21)

That is enough to start and see how much we agree there.

 

[Arial]

1. When Christ ascended the Father made Him Head of the Body. (Eph. 1: 22)

Yes. But there is much more to it than just making a statement as to what each of us is thinking when we agree on it. To me that means that Jesus is both the cornerstone and the capstone in all things concerning the church. That refers to the doctrines that are in the church, concerning Christ as to who He is and the work that He did, that foundation that the apostles laid and we have in the scriptures. Nothing is to be added to it, nothing taken away.

It also means v. 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all, that His people, those He has redeemed are His representatives and mouth piece so to speak, spreading the gospel, and in that way adding living stones to the building. We also build up one another in the knowledge of God, meet each others needs etc. All under His headship and authority.

Jesus had a mission in His incarnation. To do the work of perfect righteousness and therein qualify as our substitute in our sins meeting justice. He completed this earthly mission on the cross, was raised to life defeating both the power of sin to condemn us and defeating the power of death to hold us. He spent time teaching the apostles (I believe those things we find in the epistles, things that could not be made known until He after His death and resurrection.) His people continue the earthly mission of taking the gospel to the whole world. (His body.)


I will get to #2 in a separate post as I have to sign off right now.

 

[Arial]

2. The Body of Christ is the `new man.` (Eph. 2: 15)

We are each a new man in Christ and together we make up one body, each with its part to play in the body for the good of the body. And this scripture is about Jew and Gentile making up the body of Christ, rather than just the Jew being children of God. It is covenant language.

3. The Body of Christ is being built up to maturity in Christ. (Eph. 4: 13)

This is about the role of apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds and teachers equipping the saints, bringing them to maturity in the faith, in order to ground them and equip them against false teachings (doctrines) that try to enter the church. I am not sure what your are driving at by isolating these scriptures.

4. The Body of Christ are kingpriests. (Rev. 1: 6)

In the future they will reign with Him.(2:26,27; 3:21; 5:10; 20:4.5)As priests we share in the priestly privileges given to us. Priestly worship and access to God.

5. The Body of Christ will rule with Christ on His throne, (authority and power). (Rev. 3: 21)

Covered in #4.

 

[Eleanor]

I liked everything you said pretty much. Just to keep things interesting I had one minor quibble/question regarding:

I wonder if this is true. Did Adam not know eating the fruit was evil? Can Adam be convicted got doing something he did not know was wrong? I don't know but consider the unfallen angels ... do they not know what evil is as they are watching us ...I got to think so.

Man was created with a conscience, which gave Adam to know that disobeying God's command was wrong.

 

[Eleanor]

This is one of those places where I have to do the unbelievable. Say, "I don't know."

But truly, it is one of those things we are unable to imagine and therefore cannot know, what it would be like, this statement regarding the three of the knowledge of good and evil. We have no idea what it is like to not know evil and so cannot know in exactly what way Adam did not know it.

It did not yet exist in his world.

This he did know. To disobey God was wrong.
He came to know evil in the doing of it.

They only knew God until the serpent came along talking to Eve.

But there is this. Eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil is what brought this knowledge into Adam and Eve. In whatever way, before it was outside them.

 

[makesends]

I did not ask you a question only for you to ask me the same question back. Please respond normally.

Please tell me why you think the human conscience is totally depraved.

Define "Totally Depraved".

 

[Marilyn C]

We are each a new man in Christ and together we make up one body, each with its part to play in the body for the good of the body. And this scripture is about Jew and Gentile making up the body of Christ, rather than just the Jew being children of God. It is covenant language.

This is about the role of apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds and teachers equipping the saints, bringing them to maturity in the faith, in order to ground them and equip them against false teachings (doctrines) that try to enter the church. I am not sure what your are driving at by isolating these scriptures.

In the future they will reign with Him.(2:26,27; 3:21; 5:10; 20:4.5)As priests we share in the priestly privileges given to us. Priestly worship and access to God.

Covered in #4.

Thank you, Arial for you detailed response. I was just giving a summary with those scriptures.

So just to clarify `Where do you see the Lord`s seat of power and authority is, His `own throne, ` where we will rule with Him? (Rev. 3: 21)

 

[Arial]

Thank you, Arial for you detailed response. I was just giving a summary with those scriptures.

So just to clarify `Where do you see the Lord`s seat of power and authority is, His `own throne, ` where we will rule with Him? (Rev. 3: 21)

In heaven and when the new Jerusalem in the restored creation comes down, I suppose there. But what in the world does this have to do with the OP?

 

[Ritajanice]

Man was created with a conscience, which gave Adam to know that disobeying God's command was wrong.

So, God made them both to know right from wrong did he?

I know I sound like a school girl...hope you don’t mind. Just looking for the truth of God’s word as I learnt very little at school.

If he made them in his image, then they must have been perfect, without a blemish?

Has God got a conscience?

I believe God gives us his moral conscience when he births us in the Spirit..our conscience is heightened..just my thoughts...

Found this online, what say you?

Some Christians believe that the conscience is the voice of God. God is speaking to individuals, guiding them to do the right thing in a given situation. Conscience can be described as a moral sense of right and wrong.


Divine Law is that which is enacted by God and made known to man through revelation. We distinguish between the Old Law, contained in the Pentateuch, and the New Law, which was revealed by Jesus Christ and is contained in the New Testament.

 

[Eleanor]

So, God made them both to know right from wrong did he?
I know I sound like a school girl...hope you don’t mind. Just looking for the truth of God’s word as I learnt very little at school.
If he made them in his image, then they must have been perfect, without a blemish?
Has God got a conscience?

In his image is spiritual, for God is Spirit. The NT reveals his image includes righteousness, holiness and knowledge of him (Eph 4:24, Col 3:10).

I believe God gives us his moral conscience when he births us in the Spirit..our conscience is heightened..just my thoughts...

Found this online, what say you?
Some Christians believe that the conscience is the voice of God. God is speaking to individuals, guiding them to do the right thing in a given situation. Conscience can be described as a moral sense of right and wrong.
Divine Law is that which is enacted by God and made known to man through revelation. We distinguish between the Old Law, contained in the Pentateuch, and the New Law, which was revealed by Jesus Christ and is contained in the New Testament.

The NT teaches that sinful man who has never heard of God nor the Law will be judged on Judgment Day by his conscience.

Ro 2:14-15:
"Indeed, when Gentiles who do not have the law, do by nature things required of the law (e.g., caring for the sick and elderly, honoring parents and condemning adultery), they are a law (to obey) for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them."

 

[Eleanor]

In heaven and when the new Jerusalem in the restored creation comes down, I suppose there. But what in the world does this have to do with the OP?

Dispensationalist?

A, pre, mid or post?