TULIP Explained

[Arial]

It is BECAUSE of Christ that people have eternal life.

Yes. But only those IN Him through faith have eternal life.

Think of Abel, he is not in Christ, but it is because of Christ`s sacrifice 4,000 years later that God was able to `obtain witness that he was righteous. ` (Heb. 11: 4)

Who's to say how that works? We have to go by what we know. By what He does tell us. The discussion of Heb 11 is on faith, and the faith of those who lived before the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. So what is that faith? It is a trust in and allegiance to, and obedience to God, not by rote, but by knowing HIm. The faith of Abraham was credited to him as righteousness. He believed God. And God did not become triune with the incarnation. The Son was always God. The ESV words it "And through his faith (Abel), though he died, he still speaks." All this in the Heb 11 commending the faith of the OT saints, belonged to those in covenant with God.

The purpose of Christ's coming was to fulfill the old covenant and bring in the new covenant, which is not for Israel alone as the old was, but for all nations, and tribes, and tongues, and peoples. In the old the people could come to God through the priests and sacrifices. Now the way to God is through and in Christ and His sacrifice. Still through faith.

Then there is Noah, who `became the heir of righteousness which is according to faith, ` (Heb. 11: 7) because he obeyed what God told Him (building the ark).

Abraham by faith obeyed God for he was told and looked for a city which had foundations, whose builder and maker was God. ` (Heb. 11: 10)

Rahab, the prostitute did not perish with those who did not believe, when she received the spies with peace. ` (Heb. 11: 31)

And so many more who never heard of Jesus, (because He was not yet manifest) and they were never able to partake of the divine nature when Jesus sent His Holy Spirit to His Body. All those OT saints were not `predestined in Christ.` They were made righteous because by faith they believed what God told them to do. (Heb. 11: 32 - 38)

See above. The Son was always there and is God. What changed is the way to be reconciled to Him, that it might go to all nations, not just Israel. What was shadowed in Israel and before, and through whom He came. Now, in the new covenant after Jesus' fulfilling the old, the way is through faith in His person and work and it is available to all nations.

Salvation unto eternal life has always been through faith in God.

 

[Eleanor]

You know since the fall of man, mans conscience is defiled and seared regarding the life of God Spiritually 1 Tim 4:1-2
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Titus 1:15
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

The unbelievers conscience is defiled, and defiled is in the perfect tense in the original, so its like that once and for all in a unbelieving condition.

You'll have to take that up with Paul where some will be judged by their conscience.

Ro 2:14-15:
"Indeed, when Gentiles who do not have the law, do by nature things required of the law (e.g., caring for the sick and elderly, honoring parents and condemning adultery), they are a law (to obey) for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them."

 

[brightfame52]

You'll have to take that up with Paul where some will be judged by their conscience.

Ro 2:14-15:
"Indeed, when Gentiles who do not have the law, do by nature things required of the law (e.g., caring for the sick and elderly, honoring parents and condemning adultery), they are a law (to obey) for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them."

I have no problem with that passage.

 

[Rella]

SO why did Adam, the first time he had the chance, immediately, and of his own free will, Toss God under the bus, side with satan, and do EXACTLY WHAT GOD TOLD HIM NOT TO DO???

I think you nailed it. "Free Will" and he saw that Eve was still alive and said it was good.... and possibly batted her naturally long eyelashes?

Adam probably DIDN'T KNOW that he'd given his sovereignty over the creation over to satan, that the earth would be CURSED for his sake, or that his "Free lunch was over, and he'd have to WORK to survive. But it appears that the only thing that made Adam's SIN "Original" was that it was the first one.

Sounds to me that Adam already had a "Fallen nature" ("Corrupt nature" / "Sin nature" / choose you buzz word) , since his free will reaction to "Temptation" was exactly like ours is now. So what supposedly Changed about Adam's "Nature"???

Other than the FAITH ISSUE, which humans are incapable of self generating, this sounds accurate. I certainly didn't want to "give up" MY way of life - even though I was conversant enough with the Bible to be aware of the concept that HELL AWAITED, if I should die physically.

For sure, without "Conviction of SIN from the Holy Spirit" (God's Word to you - Rom 10:17), A person is unable to respond in FAITH that God will save them. "Belief" (mental assent) won't get it done, since "Belief" has no "Substance", and isn't an "Evidence" of anything - Heb 11:1.

 

[Arial]

I think you nailed it. "Free Will" and he saw that Eve was still alive and said it was good.... and possibly batted her naturally long eyelashes?

What is in question is not whether Adam and Eve were created with a free will---meaning they could obey or disobey, but were not coerced one way or the other, but whether all mankind lost free will in that respect because Adam and Eve chose to sin. We did. We are more often than not coerced by our own desires which our will obeys, to sin. We do not always sin, and we usually don't sin as badly as we possibly can, but we will sin sometimes. Our will freely chooses to sin, because it is enslaved by sin---thanks to Adam.

 

[David1701]

What is in question is not whether Adam and Eve were created with a free will---meaning they could obey or disobey, but were not coerced one way or the other, but whether all mankind lost free will in that respect because Adam and Eve chose to sin. We did. We are more often than not coerced by our own desires which our will obeys, to sin. We do not always sin, and we usually don't sin as badly as we possibly can, but we will sin sometimes. Our will freely chooses to sin, because it is enslaved by sin---thanks to Adam.

People always follow (or attempt to) their strongest desire. That's what Adam and Eve did.

What implications does this have for the freedom (or otherwise) of their will, before they fell?

The answer is that they were bound by their strongest desire, just as we are. The will is not, never has been, and never will be, free, in that sense. It is a slave of our nature and its desires. God's will is also bound by his nature and desires (otherwise we would all be in huge trouble!).

 

[fastfredy0]

People always follow (or attempt to) their strongest desire. That's what Adam and Eve did.

What implications does this have for the freedom (or otherwise) of their will, before they fell?

The answer is that they were bound by their strongest desire, just as we are. The will is not, never has been, and never will be, free, in that sense. It is a slave of our nature and its desires. God's will is also bound by his nature and desires (otherwise we would all be in huge trouble!).

Exactly ... IMO

There is not such thing are FREE WILL as defined as "self-determination". You don't pick your body, you don't pick your parents, you don't pick your mind, you don't when you were born, yahda, yahda .... you are NOT free in any respect. Your will is an effect of other determinate causes that all lead back to the FIRST CAUSE, God.

When it comes to sin, that's when the Calvinist's (not all of them) revive the idea of FREE WILL as defined as "self-determination" as it is a convenient explanation and resolves other issues if they dig deeper.

Disavowment of Free Will (self-determination)
The “free will” side inserts that extra layer of choice before the wanting. Somehow you're choosing what to want. You're not acting according to your greatest desire in a particular situation. Your will if free from what you want. Your wants are just there, sort of on the table and you're choosing which desire to act upon. This is a circular infinite regress; a logical problem; they are basically saying you chose what you chose. But you don’t choose your choices. You don’t transcend your own existence. Your choices are determined. You just make choices as time unfolds. The “free will” side completely obliterates reality when they try to make your choice transcendent; when they try to put this idea that you're choosing what to choose. Author unknown

 

[Rella]

People always follow (or attempt to) their strongest desire. That's what Adam and Eve did.

What implications does this have for the freedom (or otherwise) of their will, before they fell?

The answer is that they were bound by their strongest desire, just as we are. The will is not, never has been, and never will be, free, in that sense. It is a slave of our nature and its desires. God's will is also bound by his nature and desires (otherwise we would all be in huge trouble!).

Exactly ... IMO

There is not such thing are FREE WILL as defined as "self-determination". You don't pick your body, you don't pick your parents, you don't pick your mind, you don't when you were born, yahda, yahda .... you are NOT free in any respect. Your will is an effect of other determinate causes that all lead back to the FIRST CAUSE, God.

When it comes to sin, that's when the Calvinist's (not all of them) revive the idea of FREE WILL as defined as "self-determination" as it is a convenient explanation and resolves other issues if they dig deeper.

Disavowment of Free Will (self-determination)
The “free will” side inserts that extra layer of choice before the wanting. Somehow you're choosing what to want. You're not acting according to your greatest desire in a particular situation. Your will if free from what you want. Your wants are just there, sort of on the table and you're choosing which desire to act upon. This is a circular infinite regress; a logical problem; they are basically saying you chose what you chose. But you don’t choose your choices. You don’t transcend your own existence. Your choices are determined. You just make choices as time unfolds. The “free will” side completely obliterates reality when they try to make your choice transcendent; when they try to put this idea that you're choosing what to choose. Author unknown

Thank you both for your insights into an incredibly difficult subject.

A definite direction I never thought about.

Sigh! More homework........LOL

 

[Bob Carabbio]

What is in question is not whether Adam and Eve were created with a free will---meaning they could obey or disobey, but were not coerced one way or the other, but whether all mankind lost free will in that respect because Adam and Eve chose to sin. We did. We are more often than not coerced by our own desires which our will obeys, to sin. We do not always sin, and we usually don't sin as badly as we possibly can, but we will sin sometimes. Our will freely chooses to sin, because it is enslaved by sin---thanks to Adam.

Adam and Eve were not DIFFERENT from you and me in any way, And we're not "Different" because of anything they did. All this "Fallen neature" garbage is meaningless A&E made their "free will decision" for exactly the same motives that we make ours, and the ONLY THING we "inherited" from them was "humanity"/"Human Nature". A&E were never "Cursed". only the "Earth" (for their sakes), and the Serpent.

 

[Arial]

Adam and Eve were not DIFFERENT from you and me in any way, And we're not "Different" because of anything they did. All this "Fallen neature" garbage is meaningless A&E made their "free will decision" for exactly the same motives that we make ours, and the ONLY THING we "inherited" from them was "humanity"/"Human Nature". A&E were never "Cursed". only the "Earth" (for their sakes), and the Serpent.

They were radically different. Adam was made out of the dirt. Eve was made out of one of his ribs. Everyone else on the other hand comes through the natural reproduction cycle decreed and created by God. It is because of this like begetting like that we inherit all the qualities of Adam including sinful nature. That is what Adam's sin imputed to us means. We are like our father Adam. Romans 5. 1 Cor 15. Why exactly do you think every single person ever born and lives, sins? Why exactly do you think God says no one is righteous? Why exactly do you think Jesus came to redeem us, and from what, and how? Why do you think the Son of God came as one like Adam----a man? Why is Adam called the first Adam and Jesus is called the second Adam?

The nature of a human that we inherited from Adam is a nature that sins.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

They were radically different. Adam was made out of the dirt. Eve was made out of one of his ribs. Everyone else on the other hand comes through the natural reproduction cycle decreed and created by God. It is because of this like begetting like that we inherit all the qualities of Adam including sinful nature. That is what Adam's sin imputed to us means. We are like our father Adam. Romans 5. 1 Cor 15. Why exactly do you think every single person ever born and lives, sins? Why exactly do you think God says no one is righteous? Why exactly do you think Jesus came to redeem us, and from what, and how? Why do you think the Son of God came as one like Adam----a man? Why is Adam called the first Adam and Jesus is called the second Adam?

The nature of a human that we inherited from Adam is a nature that sins.

Exactly like Adam's nature BEFORE He sinned. Nothing changed.

Jesus (since He was tempted in every respect AS WE ARE) had the SAME NATURE, but didn't let HIS LUST (strong personal desire) conceive, thereby avoiding SIN.

"Temptation" isn't "Sin" ACTING on our LUST results in SINFUL ACTS.

Adam and Eve were there looking at the ONLY TREE IN THE GARDEN that they COULDN'T HAVE (since human nature always desires what it can't have),

And sure enough, satan was there to "Entice" Eve, and Adam (in their supposedly "PERFECT STATE"). And Just like we do, they lusted after the forbidden fruit, let their lust conceive, and tossed God under the bus in favor of satan. Nothing in Eve, or Adam's "Nature" changed (only their environment which was cursed, and their "Free lunch" was gone). We're Adam's descendants, and are Human also, just like he was.

 

[Rella]

Adam and Eve were not DIFFERENT from you and me in any way, And we're not "Different" because of anything they did. All this "Fallen neature" garbage is meaningless A&E made their "free will decision" for exactly the same motives that we make ours, and the ONLY THING we "inherited" from them was "humanity"/"Human Nature". A&E were never "Cursed". only the "Earth" (for their sakes), and the Serpent.

Perhaps not a curse per se... but God told Eve in
Genesis 3:16 To the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you.”

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Perhaps not a curse per se... but God told Eve in
Genesis 3:16 To the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you.”

Exactly. Eve desired to dominate Adam, but instead Adam would dominate her.

You see the same issue in "Diana"/"Artemis" worship (which was matriarchal - "Eve was created first, and was superior to Adam") which led to the prominence of the Roman Catholic "Mary thing" in their religious system.

 

[Arial]

Exactly like Adam's nature BEFORE He sinned. Nothing changed.

Jesus (since He was tempted in every respect AS WE ARE) had the SAME NATURE, but didn't let HIS LUST (strong personal desire) conceive, thereby avoiding SIN.

Opinions are the purview of all and concerning everything. When one is making a doctrinal declaration it is meaningless as anything but an opinion unless 1.it gives biblical evidence to support how that one arrived at that opinion. 2.it soundly and biblically refutes what it is contending against.

Your attempt do that by referring to the temptation of Jesus does not do that. It is a logical fallacy, nothing more. When you can actually present a logical case, we can discuss it.

"Temptation" isn't "Sin" ACTING on our LUST results in SINFUL ACTS.

Matt 5:27-28 "You have heard that it was said,'You shall not commit adultery. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Adam and Eve were there looking at the ONLY TREE IN THE GARDEN that they COULDN'T HAVE (since human nature always desires what it can't have),

Again, a logical fallacy. Human nature does not always desire what it can't have. You have made an argument that when looked at with logic would go something like this: Since Adam and Eve were told they could not eat of that one tree, they did so because human nature desires what it cannot have. If that were true, then it was God who enticed them to disobey not the serpent.

And sure enough, satan was there to "Entice" Eve, and Adam (in their supposedly "PERFECT STATE"). And Just like we do, they lusted after the forbidden fruit, let their lust conceive, and tossed God under the bus in favor of satan. Nothing in Eve, or Adam's "Nature" changed (only their environment which was cursed, and their "Free lunch" was gone). We're Adam's descendants, and are Human also, just like he was.

When was the last or first time God created anything that was not perfect? And if it is created perfect He did not create it with a nature that desires sin automatically. What He did do was create man in His image and likeness. Does God desire to rebel against Himself? Does He have anything higher than Himself to rebel against? Man, in the image and likeness of God has some qualities by nature that are similar to God, but not exactly like Him in any way.

One of those likeness is we are created as a being with a mind that thinks, that decides things, chooses things, creates things (but not out of nothing) who reasons and acts. As such a type of creature he could rebel against God but he did not have a nature that would automaicall rebel against God. At the same time He is under the Headship of God, the creator of all, and they were. creatures whereas He is not a creature. They were created to bear the image of God, as subjects of Him. To have dominion over the earth and all that is in it, as vassals so to speak, but according to His sovereign rule over them. This is where Adam failed.

In disobeying God he commited the most horrendous act of treason ever know to man. He was put out of the garden to till the ground He cursed. lest he eat of the tree of life and live forever. Why do you suppose Adam and Eve could not be allowed to live forever? I will tell you.

Because his nature had changed. He was created perfect. The image of God with which he was created was tarnished but not destroyed. There was something different about the creature man now. His nature now has a rebellious streak against it Creator. That sin, by decree of God before creation was imputed to the entire human race, as Adam was to stand as the federal head of all mankind. Romans 5. The human creation became a species of sinners. So now our eyes see and our heart lusts. Often we lust and then go see.

That was not the case with Jesus because though he was human through the womb of Mary, He was divine through His father God. Son of God through the Holy Spirit and His eternal existence with the Father, Son of man through Mary. Not Adam. He was born but He was not born in Adam. He was born of God. He was tempted from the outside by things offered to His flesh. He had no inner proclivity to obey sinful desires of the flesh. As was the precise case with Adam and Eve, but is not the case with the progeny of Adam and Eve.

We are born in Adam. Jesus was not.

 

[Rockerduck]

Most Christians fail to recognize the God like dominion Adam had over God's creation. He was God's anointed. It was a tremendous change that Adam imparted to the human race when he fell from Grace with disobedience and took on Satan's sin nature. Thus Adam's seed was passed on generations to us. Most importantly, Jesus Christ came to redeemed us from Satan.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Most Christians fail to recognize the God like dominion Adam had over God's creation. He was God's anointed. It was a tremendous change that Adam imparted to the human race when he fell from Grace with disobedience and took on Satan's sin nature. Thus Adam's seed was passed on generations to us. Most importantly, Jesus Christ came to redeemed us from Satan.

Adam did not have a GOD LIKE DOMINION over God's creation. Adam had dominion over the earth as the creature made in God's image unlike the rest of the animals in nature.

If you use the internet properly, you can see that Adam was not Divine.

 

[Rockerduck]

Adam did not have a GOD LIKE DOMINION over God's creation. Adam had dominion over the earth as the creature made in God's image unlike the rest of the animals in nature.

If you use the internet properly, you can see that Adam was not Divine.

God-like is not Divine. He had dominion. Oh, I said same thing you did. You just didn't read mine right.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

God-like is not Divine. He had dominion. Oh, I said same thing you did. You just didn't read mine right.

God like dominion" is what you said. I corrected it. Adam was not God or God like.

 

[ReverendRV]

He didn't say Adam was God. There are greater things to argue about...

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Did Adam not know eating the fruit was evil?

Adam had been DIRECTLY INSTRUCTED BY GOD NOT TO EAT OF A SPECIFIC TREE. WHether he had any concept of "Evil" or not is unimportant. Knowing FULLY that the creator of the word he lived in had PERSONALLY commanded him NOT TO EAT of the tree, Adam sided with satan, tossed God under the bus, and ignored God's warning. OF COURSE ADAM KNEW!!!! He wasn't an Idiot.