TULIP Explained

[Dave_Regenerated]

Online explanation..not saying it’s right...just posting a different view on conscience.

Is conscience a learned behavior?


Wolman's Dictionary of Behavioral Science defines "conscience" as "1. The individual's set of moral values which was thought to be innate by theologians but is now believed to be learned. 2.

You are going to trust psychology over experience and Theology? That Wolman's dictionary explanation only explains nurture or Environment on morality and not nature or the human instinct that is built into everybody and is part of our soul, or consciousness. The religious laws teach moral and ethical rules and ways of behaviour to conduct a better society - but without each individual in that society having an innate sense of right and wrong in themselves, such a law would be impossible. Witness uncivilised tribal peoples on the earth today - they would have gone extinct a long time ago if they had no innate sense of right and wrong. So I don't agree with the idea that the conscience is a learned behaviour. It's like saying a human tongue is a learnt behaviour.

 

[Ladodgers6]

The problem with the T is that it means Total, and humans are born with a conscience.

A bent one. Have you read St. Augustine? Are cannibals civilized because they use utensils? Sinners hate the light because it exposes their evil deeds. Sinners are doing precisely what they want and desire. Nobody is forcing them to sin. They are in bondage to it. Understanding that only a Gracious Act of God can save them from this plight!

Yes, even the conscience is affected by the Fall. If you disagree with this, then you believe people are basically good. And if they are good then why is a Savior needed. Only bad people need a Savior, not me, some would say. But everyone is bad, "Tom".

So, please, indulge me, you are saying that the conscience is free of sin? That it stayed intact, able to discern spiritual truth apart from Grace?​

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

A bent one. Have you read St. Augustine? Are cannibals civilized because they use utensils? Sinners hate the light because it exposes their evil deeds. Sinners are doing precisely what they want and desire. Nobody is forcing them to sin. They are in bondage to it. Understanding that only a Gracious Act of God can save them from this plight!

Yes, even the conscience is affected by the Fall. If you disagree with this, then you believe people are basically good. And if they are good then why is a Savior needed. Only bad people need a Savior, not me, some would say. But everyone is bad, "Tom".

So, please, indulge me, you are saying that the conscience is free of sin? That it stayed intact, able to discern spiritual truth apart from Grace?​

Don't shoot off before you clock it. Of course the conscience is fallen, like all the faculties of mind, feeling and will. But it's still there. So "total" isn't really the correct word.

 

[Ritajanice]

You are going to trust psychology over experience and Theology? That Wolman's dictionary explanation only explains nurture or Environment on morality and not nature or the human instinct that is built into everybody and is part of our soul, or consciousness. The religious laws teach moral and ethical rules and ways of behaviour to conduct a better society - but without each individual in that society having an innate sense of right and wrong in themselves, such a law would be impossible. Witness uncivilised tribal peoples on the earth today - they would have gone extinct a long time ago if they had no innate sense of right and wrong. So I don't agree with the idea that the conscience is a learned behaviour. It's like saying a human tongue is a learnt behaviour.

No Brother..I posted another view that was all...

My parents were the ones that brought me up, they taught me “ their” right from wrong...regarding the law....also morally they taught me their morals.....

Their hold over me emotionally was extremely powerful..I wouldn’t have dared gone against their moral law....because my conscience wouldn’t allow me to.....because I knew if I had gone against their moral law...they would have made me feel “ unjustified “ shame and disgust...

 

[Ladodgers6]

I might quibble with the above part of your statement ... to keep things interesting . (I'm fine with the rest).
Premise 1: God determines all things and therefore knows all things
Premise 2: God determined Adam would fall
Conclusion: Adam was not free to do other than what God had determined He would do (in him we live and breathe and have our being)

God could have created an Adam that would have obeyed if you so desire. God's created legions of angels that obey; creating an Adam that obeyed would be simple for Him. Adam was not free to go contrary to God's determined decree.

Aside: Perhaps you define FREE WILL differently than I perceive.

Thanks Fredy, sure no problem. It will be edifying and important to know. Let's start with Scripture.

Hosea 6:7 But like Adam they transgressed the covenant; there they dealt faithlessly with me.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men

Romans 5:16 For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation

Romans 5:17 For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men

Now with God determining Adam would fall, would make God the author of evil, yes? I believe in the Classical Calvinist position that God allowed the Fall. There is a difference, because by God allowing it would give Adam a Total Free-Will to choose either way. To obey God or disobey him. Which is why God made a Covenant with Adam, to fulfill this Covenant that came with blessings and curses attached.​

 

[Ladodgers6]

Don't shoot off before you clock it. Of course the conscience is fallen, like all the faculties of mind, feeling and will. But it's still there. So "total" isn't really the correct word.

Total meaning that all of man is fallen, hence the word Total. Like a Total car wreck, yes? Understanding how far we have fallen is pertinent to understanding our condition before a Holy God. John Gernster said it best, if sin had a color like blue, we would be blue from head to toe inside out.

Please if you wouldn't mind sharing your view of the Fall and sin, thanks.​

 

[Ritajanice]

No Brother..I posted another view that was all...

My parents were the ones that brought me up, they taught me “ their” right from wrong...regarding the law....also morally they taught me their morals.....

Their hold over me emotionally was extremely powerful..I wouldn’t have dared gone against their moral law....because my conscience wouldn’t allow me to.....because I knew if I had gone against their moral law...they would have made me feel “ unjustified “ shame and disgust...

I also believe a human tongue is also partly learnt..yes I do....because we learn from our parents and growing up we believe everything our parents tell us....my father swore like a trooper, I thought that was normal..shouting and bawling, I thought that was also normal....behaviours are learnt...of course they are.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Total meaning that all of man is fallen, hence the word Total. Like a Total car wreck, yes? Understanding how far we have fallen is pertinent to understanding our condition before a Holy God. John Gernster said it best, if sin had a color like blue, we would be blue from head to toe inside out.

Please if you wouldn't mind sharing your view of the Fall and sin, thanks.​

You are being dogmatic here. If fallen doesn't mean Totally fallen, then the word "Total" is probably not the best word to use. That is basic reason, isn't it?

If we had no conscience at all because we were TOTALLY depraved, and God manifested His Holy presence to a person, they would be incapable of understanding it because you can only feel guilty in your conscience. Otherwise you would be a psychopath. What I said has nothing to do with God being Holy and us humans being sinners in His sight.

We find out our guilt from our sin in our conscience because God is Holy, perfect, sinless, and majestic and righteous. Without any human conscience, despite how fallen it is, we would not be able to recognise that God is Holy at all.

So there's no need to get into much theology by my simply pointing out that the word TOTAL in the Tulip acronym could be substituted with a better word. Otherwise, show me where in the Bible that word "Total" is used to describe humans in terms of their depravity. I want that actual word, not a slew of Bible verses implying it. For the sake of clarity we need the actual word TOTAL.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

I also believe a human tongue is also partly learnt..yes I do....because we learn from our parents and growing up we believe everything our parents tell us....my father swore like a trooper, I thought that was normal..shouting and bawling, I thought that was also normal....behaviours are learnt...of course they are.

I think you missed the point I made. I'm saying very simply that if morality comes only from external learning and behaviour and is not innate inside human beings in their conscience, it is LIKE saying people do not need a head to be part of their body, a leg or an arm is not necessary etc.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Total meaning that all of man is fallen, hence the word Total. Like a Total car wreck, yes? Understanding how far we have fallen is pertinent to understanding our condition before a Holy God. John Gernster said it best, if sin had a color like blue, we would be blue from head to toe inside out.

Please if you wouldn't mind sharing your view of the Fall and sin, thanks.​

The T in Tulip is TOTAL DEPRAVITY. Not just TOTAL. LOL

Before you were saved, were you completely and totally depraved in every possible way? Yes or no?

 

[Ritajanice]

The T in Tulip is TOTAL DEPRAVITY. Not just TOTAL. LOL

Before you were saved, were you completely and totally depraved in every possible way? Yes or no?

Towards believing in God..yes I was totally depraved.....

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Towards believing in God..yes I was totally depraved.....

I wasn't. I was born into a raised a Catholic and had no problem with belief in God. That is not what Total Depravity means in Reformed Theology. It means that without God's grace regenerating your soul you are incapable of doing anything good.

If you couple the inability to do anything good with seeking for God, this refers to not seeking for the God that is revealed in the Bible, since we can all have religious aspirations to seek for God that we fashion into an idol based on our own imagination.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Perhaps from now on I will have to use poetry instead of prose to make sure that my writings aren't taken in wrong ways and to buffer and slough off contentious attacks that don't seek enlightenment but argumentation for the sake of it.

 

[Ladodgers6]

You are being dogmatic here.

No Sir, it's Biblical teaching.

If fallen doesn't mean Totally fallen, then the word "Total" is probably not the best word to use. That is basic reason, isn't it?

Again, Total Depraved is that sin has permeated our entire core; heart, mind, soul. It's not about how bad one can possibly be; it's not the intensity but the extensity.

If we had no conscience at all because we were TOTALLY depraved, and God manifested His Holy presence to a person, they would be incapable of understanding it because you can only feel guilty in your conscience. Otherwise you would be a psychopath. What I said has nothing to do with God being Holy and us humans being sinners in His sight.

Well, again you miss what it entails, we are not talking about us being civil with one another. You can feel bad or good about certain things, like seeing a Dodger game, going to the movies, spending with the Fam. For even death row inmates have friends and love ones. This is not what we are talking about. A death row inmate, a serial killer cannot atone for savaging raping and killing someone's else kid, right? And just because they cannot so-call "control" their urges is no excuse for their depraved passion, right?​

We find out our guilt from our sin in our conscience because God is Holy, perfect, sinless, and majestic and righteous. Without any human conscience, despite how fallen it is, we would not be able to recognise that God is Holy at all.

No sir, there is no knowledge of sin without the Law, correct? Now, I know you will bring up Romans 2. But as in John 3, they hated the light, because their evil deeds would be exposed. They prefer the darkness, and do what they want, and what they want is determined by who they are, yes? So, just because crooks hate cops, doesn't mean their consciences will save them? Something must change them not just rehab, but total restoration is needed, because they could relapse.
​

So there's no need to get into much theology by my simply pointing out that the word TOTAL in the Tulip acronym could be substituted with a better word. Otherwise, show me where in the Bible that word "Total" is used to describe humans in terms of their depravity. I want that actual word, not a slew of Bible verses implying it. For the sake of clarity we need the actual word TOTAL.

This argument again, okay. If you like or not, what you are doing with me right now, is called theology; you are a theologian, like it or not. One must not only read their Bible but study them. Knowing the context of narrative is crucial for understanding God's Word. Here I'll show you. Do you believe in the Trinity? If so, show me the exact word "Trinity" in the Bible.​

 

[Ritajanice]

I wasn't. I was born into a raised a Catholic and had no problem with belief in God. That is not what Total Depravity means in Reformed Theology. It means that without God's grace regenerating your soul you are incapable of doing anything good.

If you couple the inability to do anything good with seeking for God, this refers to not seeking for the God that is revealed in the Bible, since we can all have religious aspirations to seek for God that we fashion into an idol based on our own imagination.

But, you didn’t regenerate yourself did you?

Your belief in God as a Catholic, was your own belief..human belief...not regeneration...

In God’s eyes you are incapable of doing good...because you are in sin..what does God say about none are good?

Matthew 19:17

King James Version

​

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

 

[Arial]

God could have created an Adam that would have obeyed if you so desire. God's created legions of angels that obey; creating an Adam that obeyed would be simple for Him. Adam was not free to go contrary to God's determined decree.

Was it a determined decree though? There is a distinction between ordaining, decreeing, determining, and governing. And keep in mind we do not know what went on in the spiritual realm before God created our world. I.e. see Job chapt 1. The serpent had to have permission from God to even be in the Garden and permission to deceive them.

They were not created with evil in them, but they were created with a mind, reason, will---created in the image and likeness of God. And they were created to bear His image and as having been created by Him, the sovereign and only creator, they were His servants. They owed full allegiance and obedience to Him. As we all do. And none can give it since the fall---except in Christ, who gave full allegiance and obedience in our place, then died to impute His perfect righteousness to those the Father gives Him.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

No Sir, it's Biblical teaching.

Again, Total Depraved is that sin has permeated our entire core; heart, mind, soul. It's not about how bad one can possibly be; it's not the intensity but the extensity.

Well, again you miss what it entails, we are not talking about us being civil with one another. You can feel bad or good about certain things, like seeing a Dodger game, going to the movies, spending with the Fam. For even death row inmates have friends and love ones. This is not what we are talking about. A death row inmate, a serial killer cannot atone for savaging raping and killing someone's else kid, right? And just because they cannot so-call "control" their urges is no excuse for their depraved passion, right?


No sir, there is no knowledge of sin without the Law, correct? Now, I know you will bring up Romans 2. But as in John 3, they hated the light, because their evil deeds would be exposed. They prefer the darkness, and do what they want, and what they want is determined by who they are, yes? So, just because crooks hate cops, doesn't mean their consciences will save them? Something must change them not just rehab, but total restoration is needed, because they could relapse.


This argument again, okay. If you like or not, what you are doing with me right now, is called theology; you are a theologian, like it or not. One not only read their Bible but study them. Knowing the context of narrative is crucial for understanding God's Word. Here I'll show you. Do you believe in the Trinity? If so, show me the exact word "Trinity" in the Bible.​

You just want to argue with me for the sake of it, I'm afraid. I'm not going there.

I don't even know what most of the things you have written have to do with anything discussed previously. It's a jumble of stuff that has no bearing on me at all.

The Trinity concept is a theological issue but theology is not divorced from reason and common sense. The word itself (Trinity) may not be in the Bible, but it is a CONCEPT and not one single word. I asked you to show me Total Depravity in the Bible based on the usage of the word "Total" itself. It cannot be done, can it? Therefore, there is no need to believe it is Biblical.

Why don't you answer my questions? Are you a *edit* now? I have asked you several questions you have evaded. Why is that? Let's try again - does the existence of a human conscience from birth denote that a person is COMPLETELY depraved? YES OR NO please?

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

No Sir, it's Biblical teaching.

Again, Total Depraved is that sin has permeated our entire core; heart, mind, soul. It's not about how bad one can possibly be; it's not the intensity but the extensity.

Well, again you miss what it entails, we are not talking about us being civil with one another. You can feel bad or good about certain things, like seeing a Dodger game, going to the movies, spending with the Fam. For even death row inmates have friends and love ones. This is not what we are talking about. A death row inmate, a serial killer cannot atone for savaging raping and killing someone's else kid, right? And just because they cannot so-call "control" their urges is no excuse for their depraved passion, right?


No sir, there is no knowledge of sin without the Law, correct? Now, I know you will bring up Romans 2. But as in John 3, they hated the light, because their evil deeds would be exposed. They prefer the darkness, and do what they want, and what they want is determined by who they are, yes? So, just because crooks hate cops, doesn't mean their consciences will save them? Something must change them not just rehab, but total restoration is needed, because they could relapse.


This argument again, okay. If you like or not, what you are doing with me right now, is called theology; you are a theologian, like it or not. One must not only read their Bible but study them. Knowing the context of narrative is crucial for understanding God's Word. Here I'll show you. Do you believe in the Trinity? If so, show me the exact word "Trinity" in the Bible.​

It's simply common sense to know that the human ability to do something good exists.

But if you want to be Biblical about it, I can show you that even Jesus Christ himself knows nothing of TOTAL depravity. He said evil people know how to do things that are good. I'm sure you know that part of the scriptures. It would be interesting to see someone argue against that.

 

[Arial]

The T in Tulip is TOTAL DEPRAVITY. Not just TOTAL. LOL

Before you were saved, were you completely and totally depraved in every possible way? Yes or no?

I suggest you read the explanation of TD in the OP. It is an unfortunate use of a word to make an acronym and leaves room for remarks like this, that are then repeated and repeated again and then again, by people who never examine it beyond the alphabet soup. It does not mean that we are all as depraved as we possibly could be. It refers to every aspect of our being, being affected by the fall. That includes our will.

 

[Ladodgers6]

You just want to argue with me for the sake of it, I'm afraid. I'm not going there.

Sure, no problem. You asked me the question and I replied, correct?

I don't even know what most of the things you have written have to do with anything discussed previously. It's a jumble of stuff that has no bearing on me at all.

Exactly! You need to know the facts before one can come to a conclusion, yes?

The Trinity concept is a theological issue but theology is not divorced from reason and common sense. The word itself (Trinity) may not be in the Bible, but it is a CONCEPT and not one single word. I asked you to show me Total Depravity in the Bible based on the usage of the word "Total" itself. It cannot be done, can it? Therefore, there is no need to believe it is Biblical.

Not so fast, buddy. You asked me to show you the exact word. So, now you understand that if the teaching is present and the exact word is not, is doesn't negate the concept, correct?

Why don't you answer my questions? Are you a *edit* now? I have asked you several questions you have evaded. Why is that? Let's try again - does the existence of a human conscience from birth denote that a person is COMPLETELY depraved? YES OR NO please?

Asked and answered. Your limited by your bias eyewear, you want to locate something good that remains in fallen man. As we have pointed out already, that people can preform good deeds for other people, do random acts of kindness even. But even these acts are considered filthy rags before God. Paul even states in Romans 4 that if Abraham was justified by works, it's not before God! Why not?

I'm sorry if you don't like my replies. But they do address your question. The sinner's conscience is bent, it is warped, but not destroyed. No matter what we do or how charitable our works are, they will never measure up. This is all I am saying.

Now in regards to a sinner's conscience, is this the basis or ground upon their own salvation?​