TULIP Explained

[ReverendRV]

Show me in scripture where we can prove it then?

Are we on topic?..as the OP wants us to stay on TULIP topic.
Maybe we need to start another topic.

Fair enough, she's in charge...

 

[Arial]

I am not arguing with you. I didn't even talk to you. You just made that up out of thin air to argue with me.

If you don't like language that isn't just Biblical then I think you are probably just way too dogmatic for the tastes of most people. Sorry. I will not engage in hairsplitting with a person that addresses the person as part of their argument instead of the things they say. You need to brush up on those skills. That's the last thing I will say to you unless you only address the points made and the things said instead of me as a person.

Do you actually not see that you are doing exactly what you accuse me of doing in your post? I simply told you to get back on topic. You replied a person couldn't argue with total depravity. So is that why you started a whole other topic apropo of nothing so hopefully someone would argue with that?

Do people actually believe that the Holy Spirit teaches them spiritually in some way where they get to tell everybody else stuff about the New heavens and the New earth, which they don't actually get from reading the words in the scriptures plainly? I've never ever seen anybody say they learnt about the New heavens and the New earth by way of spiritual illumination of the scriptures supernaturally. So they must have either read all about it elsewhere and then present it as if it is somehow God's meaning.

To which you got a response---which is what happens. Someone posts off topic, someone comes into the thread at that point and responds to that topic---and off it goes. No relationship to the thread whatsoever. As we see when you responded to that response.

I'm not a charismatic either but I do believe in the illumination of the scriptures. I just don't think that means the same thing as the plain reading of the text in the Bible being understood rationally as opposed to intuitively. I would also say that the general description of illumination you may read in Christian literature is also a different type of phenomenon that is separate from the other two, in that there is a depth to the written word that requires meditation to understand better intellectually but that seems to have a somewhat supernatural character to it, too.

When it comes to concepts like the New Heavens and the New earth, or the non-literal types of language used, different genres of literature etc., I'm saying I have never come across any Christian ever that claimed to exegete such passages via the Holy Spirit giving an interpretation in plain language that isn't the product of intellectual speculation. Whatever charismatics may claim, since I perceive that all of them are frauds (not the gullible church members so much, they are just bamboozled without knowing it) and I don't watch any of that stuff or go to such churches, I'm not very bothered!

That is the same way the new heaven and the new earth came into the thread in the first place. Because I responded to someone asking questions in order to make sure we were on the same track, thinking it was leading towards the OP topic. But it wasn't. The response to it became about the book of Rev. Which I answered her question and asked, "what does this have to do with TULIP? I am trying now to curtail any further conversation on end times as there is a whole forum area for that.

I understand that it is part of the fallen nature of all of us to just bristle at anything they perceive as correction. Reacting to it with insult and accusation and defense of one's ego, worrying it like a dog with a bone, only makes things worse. So I have explained the whole thing to you so you understand, and let there be no more of it. It is my thread, posted for a purpose, and if I want to try and keep it from veering off into completely unrelated territory, that is up to me. A bit of veering is only natural and acceptable if it does not become something not even resembling the OP topic and there are other places that conversation should be.

 

[Arial]

Therefore Adam and Eve were spiritual and had that perfect relationship with God...then threw it down the drain.

This portion is close enough to the T in tulip that it can be related back to it. Though Adam and Eve were not spiritual beings but physical beings, and therefore what you mean by spiritual would need to be explained. And what happened when they threw it down the drain as you say?

 

[Arial]

Fair enough, she's in charge...

It wasn't the part about Adam and Eve I was calling off topic. It is close enough and a natural avenue to veer into in relation to the T.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Do you actually not see that you are doing exactly what you accuse me of doing in your post? I simply told you to get back on topic. You replied a person couldn't argue with total depravity. So is that why you started a whole other topic apropo of nothing so hopefully someone would argue with that?


To which you got a response---which is what happens. Someone posts off topic, someone comes into the thread at that point and responds to that topic---and off it goes. No relationship to the thread whatsoever. As we see when you responded to that response.

That is the same way the new heaven and the new earth came into the thread in the first place. Because I responded to someone asking questions in order to make sure we were on the same track, thinking it was leading towards the OP topic. But it wasn't. The response to it became about the book of Rev. Which I answered her question and asked, "what does this have to do with TULIP? I am trying now to curtail any further conversation on end times as there is a whole forum area for that.

I understand that it is part of the fallen nature of all of us to just bristle at anything they perceive as correction. Reacting to it with insult and accusation and defense of one's ego, worrying it like a dog with a bone, only makes things worse. So I have explained the whole thing to you so you understand, and let there be no more of it. It is my thread, posted for a purpose, and if I want to try and keep it from veering off into completely unrelated territory, that is up to me. A bit of veering is only natural and acceptable if it does not become something not even resembling the OP topic and there are other places that conversation should be.

I perceived that you were talking about the New Heavens and the New Earth by arguing for them, which is why I responded with my original post. That is not "going off the topic" if you are the person talking about it in your own thread.

You want to make it all about me though. You seem very argumentative with regards to people instead of their arguments. That is called an AD HOMINEM fallacy.

I will not respond any further if you constantly want to argue with the person and not their subjects.

 

[Arial]

I perceived that you were talking about the New Heavens and the New Earth by arguing for them, which is why I responded with my original post. That is not "going off the topic" if you are the person talking about it in your own thread.

That is the same way the new heaven and the new earth came into the thread in the first place. Because I responded to someone asking questions in order to make sure we were on the same track, thinking it was leading towards the OP topic. But it wasn't. The response to it became about the book of Rev. Which I answered her question and asked, "what does this have to do with TULIP? I am trying now to curtail any further conversation on end times as there is a whole forum area for that.

 

[Ritajanice]

This portion is close enough to the T in tulip that it can be related back to it. Though Adam and Eve were not spiritual beings but physical beings, and therefore what you mean by spiritual would need to be explained. And what happened when they threw it down the drain as you say?

So, God is physical is he?

Therefore Adam and Eve spoke to God like we do to each other.?

Please show me where Adam and Eve didn’t fellowship with God through their Spirit?

They spoke to God through their spirit..just like we do...God is a Living Spirit...

They threw their fellowship with God down the drain...when they went against what he asked them not to do..and the serpent isn’t a good enough excuse...for going against God.

When they sinned...their spirit died, they were separated from the Spirit of God and they knew it, as soon as they sinned.

Same as an unregenerate person...as soon as they have been birthed in the Spirit..they know it 100%. they know that they have God’s spirit within them...

Genesis 3:8 says, “And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.” We know that God is spirit (John 4:24), so how exactly could He be “walking” in the garden?

My opinion and belief.

 

[Arial]

So, God is physical is he?

I said Adam and Eve were physical. They aren't God.

Therefore Adam and Eve spoke to God like we do to each other.?

It would seem so. Gen 1:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, :You may surely eat ---". Gen 3:9-10 But the Lord God called to the man ad said to him, "Where are you?" And he (Adam) said "I heard the sound of you walking in the Garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked and hid myself."

Please show me where Adam and Eve didn’t fellowship with God through their Spirit?

Man has a spirit not a Spirit. See above.

When they sinned...their spirit died, they were separated from the Spirit of God and they knew it, as soon as they sinned.

The spirit cannot die. Eccl 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Same as an unregenerate person...as soon as they have been birthed in the Spirit..they know it 100%. they know that they have God’s spirit within them.

It is not the same experience for everyone. And God does not have a (s)pirit, The Holy (S)pirit is God.

We know that God is spirit (John 4:24), so how exactly could He be “walking” in the garden?

Are you disputing the word of God or are you spiritualizing the word of God. If it says He walked in the garden, then He walked in the garden. Neither you or anyone else was there so none can say exactly what it was like. Keep in mind also that in the Bible we see angels (spirit beings) interacting with humans on a human plane. And the Son is God and the Son walked among us.And He rose from the grave in a glorified body, and walked and talked with the disciples. We do not know what God as triune looks like or what it will be like for us living in His very presence at the fullness of the kingdom and our own glorification. And we don't know what it was like for Adam and Eve.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

I said Adam and Eve were physical. They aren't God.

It would seem so. Gen 1:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, :You may surely eat ---". Gen 3:9-10 But the Lord God called to the man ad said to him, "Where are you?" And he (Adam) said "I heard the sound of you walking in the Garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked and hid myself."

Man has a spirit not a Spirit. See above.

The spirit cannot die. Eccl 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

It is not the same experience for everyone. And God does not have a (s)pirit, The Holy (S)pirit is God.

Are you disputing the word of God or are you spiritualizing the word of God. If it says He walked in the garden, then He walked in the garden. Neither you or anyone else was there so none can say exactly what it was like. Keep in mind also that in the Bible we see angels (spirit beings) interacting with humans on a human plane. And the Son is God and the Son walked among us.And He rose from the grave in a glorified body, and walked and talked with the disciples. We do not know what God as triune looks like or what it will be like for us living in His very presence at the fullness of the kingdom and our own glorification. And we don't know what it was like for Adam and Eve.

Your responses have no relation to the comments that Rita made. You want to correct her comments, which is really WEIRD.

You said, "we don't know what it was like for Adam and Eve" at the end of your paragraph. I don't know what that means. Do you want to elaborate on that?

 

[Ritajanice]

I said Adam and Eve were physical. They aren't God.

It would seem so. Gen 1:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, :You may surely eat ---". Gen 3:9-10 But the Lord God called to the man ad said to him, "Where are you?" And he (Adam) said "I heard the sound of you walking in the Garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked and hid myself."

Man has a spirit not a Spirit. See above.

Man has been birthed in the Spirit, therefore has direct contact with God through the Holy Spirit...God spoke to Adam through his spirit, just like he spoke to Abraham...

The spirit cannot die. Eccl 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

It is not the same experience for everyone. And God does not have a (s)pirit, The Holy (S)pirit is God.

I didn’t say God had a spirit..I said God is Spirit.

Are you disputing the word of God or are you spiritualizing the word of God. If it says He walked in the garden, then He walked in the garden.

Spiritualising the word of God?

Show me where God says he was walking in the garden as a physical person, your part post here doesn’t make sense.

Neither you or anyone else was there so none can say exactly what it was like. Keep in mind also that in the Bible we see angels (spirit beings) interacting with humans on a human plane. And the Son is God and the Son walked among us.And He rose from the grave in a glorified body, and walked and talked with the disciples. We do not know what God as triune looks like or what it will be like for us living in His very presence at the fullness of the kingdom and our own glorification. And we don't know what it was like for Adam and Eve.

You weren’t their either..so, your interpretation/ opinion, is no more valid than mine.

You seem to be adding to your post, stuff that I’m not even saying?

Putting words into my mouth, even @Dave_Regenerated noticed it.

 

[Ritajanice]

Your responses have no relation to the comments that Rita made. You want to correct her comments, which is really WEIRD.

You said, "we don't know what it was like for Adam and Eve" at the end of your paragraph. I don't know what that means. Do you want to elaborate on that?

I agree Brother..

 

[Ritajanice]

By the way @Arial ..God’s word is a Living Word....his word is Alive...I don’t think you understand what I mean by that.

Maybe you can explain what it means to you?

God’s Spirit is Alive in our Spirit..yes or no...and what does it mean?

Spiritualising...God speaks to us through his Spirit....you keep saying the Bible?

God is not a book...he is a living Spirit and his children fellowship with him through his Spirit.

His Spirit speaks to our spirit...are you understanding that?....we can be sitting quietly...then all of a sudden he speaks to us through his Spirit...his spirit is communicating with our spirit....then we go and check what we believe him to be saying in scripture?

Does God ever speak to you like that?

 

[Ritajanice]

@Arial If he doesn’t..then maybe that is why you and I are having difficulty understanding each other..he speaks to you through the bible.

He speaks to me through the Spirit ,then relays it to my mind, then I check if it’s his word, in the bible...he has always spoken to me like this...the same when he birthed me, he spoke directly to my spirit..there was no bible for me, when I became Born Again.....only afterwards , did I buy a bible.also go to church.

1 Corinthians 2:10-16​

​

King James Version​

​

​

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

THE BIBLE SPEAKS OF SIX WAYS THAT GOD SPEAKS TO US:​

1. GOD SPEAKS TO US THROUGH SCRIPTURE​

“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

2. GOD SPEAKS THROUGH GIFTED TEACHERS WHOSE SOURCE IS THE BIBLE​

“We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith; if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully” (Romans 12:6-8).

3. GOD SPEAKS TO US THROUGH DIFFICULTIES​

“Before I was afflicted I went astray, but now I obey your word. You are good, and what you do is good; teach me your decrees” (Psalm 119:67-68).

4. GOD SPEAKS THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT​

“But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you” (John 14:26).

5. GOD SPEAKS THROUGH HIS CREATION​

“The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they reveal knowledge” (Psalm 19:1-2).

6. GOD SPEAKS THROUGH WHATEVER OR WHOMEVER HE CHOOSES, BUT NEVER IN DISAGREEMENT WITH THE BIBLE​

“For God does speak — now one way, now another — though no one perceives it” (Job 33:14).

 

[Eleanor]

I am not a dispensationalist. And I do not believe the Bible teaches a pre- mid-or post rapture pertaining to a specific 7 year trib period. One has to project that view onto my words. They aren't actually in them. Rev tells us that the new Jerusalem will come down from heaven. The true Jerusalem then is there now. See scriptures pertaining to the building of the ark and the OT temple as being copies of what is in heaven. How much of this in Rev is literal I cannot say. If in the new creation God rules from an earthly throne that is in Jerusalem I do not know. He did pick Jerusalem (the geographic location) above all other locations and declared it holy because of His covenantly being present with His people, from which to dwell with first the Israelites. We will have to wait and see.

Topic of OP is TULIP. We are kind of going astray here.

Okay, so it seems you interpret prophecy literally and dispensationally without being a dispensationalist. Maybe in another thread or start one or @ me in one that is already going?

 

[Eleanor]

Therefore Adam and Eve were spiritual and had that perfect relationship with God...then threw it down the drain.

Yet, it seems we have more knowledge than they had, as in..we wouldn’t dare go against God as a Born Again..not if he’s spoken to us..to our heart and you certainly know when he’s done that...

Even the devil couldn’t trick me ..to go against the word of God....God told me to stay away from a person...no way would I go anyway near them.

Which may demonstrate that Adam had only human power, that the power of the Holy Spirit is greater in the born again than it was in Adam.

He’s also told me not to have relations with a man outside of marriage...I have remained faithful to God for over 30 yrs..if I’m meant to marry , he will bring me a husband...if not, then I stay single...he knows my hearts desires.

Don't see a lot of that over here.

 

[Ritajanice]

Which may demonstrate that the power of the Holy Spirit is greater in the born again than it was in Adam.

That certainly spoke to my Spirit...WOW!...Amen!

Don't see a lot of that over here.

I gave my heart and body to God, The night I was birthed...when I give myself its for life.

 

[Arial]

Okay, so it seems you interpret prophecy literally and dispensationally without being a dispensationalist.

This OP on the TULIP. I would respond but it would throw the thread off again.

 

[fastfredy0]

Calvinist do not teach that man has no will or that he does not freely make choices. It deals with the condition of our will when it comes to our choosing Christ ( as the free will argument is that we choose Christ, God doesn't choose us and give us to Christ.) Our will, is so bound by sin as is all the rest of us that it will not, and cannot act in a way contrary to its strongest desire. It is our desires that move our will and our desire is for sinful things.

I concur.

 

[Arial]

Man has been birthed in the Spirit, therefore has direct contact with God through the Holy Spirit...God spoke to Adam through his spirit, just like he spoke to Abraham...

You do not know how He spoke to Abraham. You are assuming. Before I tackle the rest of the sentence: are you a Pentecostal or some form of charismatic? I ask because that will give be a better understanding of what you mean by words you use. I used to speak that language so know it.

I didn’t say God had a spirit..I said God is Spirit.

they know that they have God’s spirit within them...

I am just pointing out that you often write our spirit as Spirit and here you wrote God's Spirit as spirit.

Show me where God says he was walking in the garden as a physical person, your part post here doesn’t make sense.

Show me where it say He wasn't. And what is a "part" post?

You weren’t their either..so, your interpretation/ opinion, is no more valid than mine.

Well---I'm not interpreting it. I am just going by what the Bible says. I quoted what it said. What you say isn't there at all.

You seem to be adding to your post, stuff that I’m not even saying?

Putting words into my mouth, even @Dave_Regenerated noticed it.

And now we are back to posts that are accusations against a person.

 

[Arial]

Okay, so it seems you interpret prophecy literally and dispensationally without being a dispensationalist. Maybe in another thread or start one or @ me in one that is already going?

Why was this edited by a moderator? It looks like they combined two posts into one.
Red was said by Eleanor. Blue by Ariel.