Trinity: The Divinity of Jesus

[makesends]

Eleanor said:
You will have to parallel NT language on a subject if you want me to understand what you are saying.

Hi Thanks

Sorry, It seems you have difficulty in rightly dividing parables the signified understnding using/mixing the temporal things seen to reveal the invisible. things of faith

What is your technique?

Hebrew 4 informs us if a person does not mix the signified temporal dying with the eternal things of faith not seen. They receive no gospel rest in the rightly dividing

Now days it seems many Christians falsely fear parables and rather look to signs to wonders after . . .out of body, having a vision, a dream as if they are where true prophecy in which God is no longer brining

looking to signs and wonders to wonder after as if true prophecy

Parables do not change the gospel they enrich like Honey.

Hebrews 44 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

The mixing formula needed to rightly divide the parables

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

I think that what @Eleanor is saying, is that when you quote scripture at least that much is clear, even when you don't clearly show your reason for quoting it. The rest of what you say, generally, is too full of extra words, misused words, too much highlighting and distracting thoughts, mistaken punctuation, for the readers to make sense of. I don't know of any of us that generally understands you.

Just by way of example: typing "honey" in bright gold color doesn't clarify the meaning. It only distracts the attempt to follow your thought. The word "mixed" is not made more meaningful or useful by alternating colors and using a larger bold font. You have not explained (and no I'm not asking you to do so now) even the single phrase, (that nobody is going to take the time to figure out what you are talking about), by the words, "...signified temporal dying with the eternal things of faith not seen". I'm just guessing but that could have been better used by maybe 6 words, like, "...equating the temporal with the eternal", or, "..shown by the things of faith", or whatever you really meant to get across.

This is YOUR problem, and characterizing her as being the one with the fault as you did in, "It seems you have difficulty in rightly dividing parables the signified understnding using/mixing the temporal things seen to reveal the invisible. things of faith", is inappropriate.

 

[makesends]

Thanks . would it sound better if I said earthen body?

Now, THAT, Mr G, was better expressed! The point of that post was understandable.

But maybe when you mean 'body', (as in 'temporal body', it is not necessary to point out that the body in discussion is always the same one as what you call 'temporal dying flesh'. Most people already assume that is the body being talked about. Your writing it that way is distracting and tiring.

 

[Carbon]

MOD EDIT: This discussion originated in a thread that was not about trinitarian doctrine. A warning was issued but not heeded. Instead of deleting all offending posts, I moved the entire discussion to a relevant and more appropriate forum where it may continue, since there clearly was interest in the subject. I am not sure where the discussion started but I gathered it was this response by Mr GLee to CrowCross. Please forgive any erroneous implications if this was not the starting point, but otherwise carry on discussing this topic.



The Son of Man Jesus did not create. . cannot . no power (impossible)

Of his own dying flesh, he declares it profits for zero, nada

He was created . . born of women. (let there be dust)

Power to rise came at the resurrection, the place of power. No power is reckoned from the fleshly birth.

Marvel not Jesus was born again like all sons of God

Be careful some worship the dying flesh and blood of the Son of man Jesus and not the Almighty Father. . the one eternal Spirit

God is not a Jewish man as King of kings Lord of lords. Thats the goal of the father of lies to deceive the whole world that eternal God is a Jewish man

Mr Glee, won't you reconsider?

Jesus is God indeed.

Scripture teaches a doctrine of the Trinity. When we consider the Trinity with human reasoning we fall short. Man is just not able to discover many truths concerning God. Also considering man is sinfully corrupt it's quite impossible for us on our own to discover and reason out these profound truths.

So, the Trinity is not discoverable through reason. It is revealed only through the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit opening our eyes to these truths.
I've heard people say, how can I believe in something I cannot understand? The first thing is, it's God we're talking about. It's expected that He is beyond us and unknowable. The Bible teaches that also. It's completely normal to not know and understand everything about Him, Almighty God.

The saving knowledge of God in Christ is revealed by the Spirit speaking in the Scriptures of truth. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all join in revealing to us the saving mystery of faith and godliness, that by the grace of Christ, the love of God, and Communion of the Holy Spirit, we may have a glorious fellowship with all Three as one God, the only true God, whom to know is eternal life. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:3.

And religion that is built upon man's reasoning will leave us without any hope or God.

 

[Carbon]

It is a very serious thing to call and consider Christ, the Creator of the universe, Almighty God a mere created man. Those who deny the Trinity, I believe, are Atheists, and they may not even know it.

 

[makesends]

It is a very serious thing to call and consider Christ, the Creator of the universe, Almighty God a mere created man. Those who deny the Trinity, I believe, are Atheists, and they may not even know it.

Agreed, though, to be honest, those who deny the Trinity may only be ignorant.

I have tried to sound out @Mr GLee to understand what he really means or thinks. He repeatedly posits, whether he means to or not, the notion that Jesus Christ was a either a hybrid or two persons in one occasion, not even in one body. He seems unable to accept that Jesus Christ was one person with two natures. His insistence in his understanding as opposed to Christian Orthodoxy should have given him pause by now.

But anyway, basically, (and if I understand him right), he sees two persons in Jesus Christ. The one, JESUS, mere flesh, subject to the same frailties as all humans and even (?) in need of regeneration. The other, CHRIST, is God himself, and (?) a separate person (not a separate being(?) from the Father. These he calls the "dynamic duo", though I'm not sure why —perhaps by superlative descriptors to imply something better than notions of trinity? I'm not sure which is The Son of God, whether the 'dying flesh counts for nothing' Jesus in the visible body, or Christ the Spirit being who was floating about nearby at all times until Jesus died?

While I have agreed with some things he has said, such as that Jesus did nothing of himself, that to me, instead of identifying Jesus as mere flesh alone, identifies him as God himself, in that only God can be that faithful and obedient as a human, not to mention that only God could fulfill all prophecy and all righteousness as Jesus did, and that, by dependence upon and unity with his God. That Jesus did not show his Godhood in the requisite flash-bang of divine power we expect makes it all the more certain in my mind.

Anyhow, I hope that @Mr GLee will respond with some sort of intelligible explanation, not asserting a theme or proving his premises, but simply defining what he believes.

 

[Carbon]

Agreed, though, to be honest, those who deny the Trinity may only be ignorant.

Yes of course. But assuming they are not ignorant. We can't know God without knowing Jesus Christ as God.

 

[Carbon]

Agreed, though, to be honest, those who deny the Trinity may only be ignorant.

Second reply to this;

More thinking on this, only God can make Himself known to men, and we only know about God, what He has revealed of Himself, nothing more, nothing less. And when He makes something about Himself known, we can do nothing other than know and believe. We may not know a lot of something but, we know enough not to deny it. I believe if proclaimed Christians do not believe in the Trinity, either they are not among the present believers, which could change, or they hate God and deny Him.

 

[makesends]

Yes of course. But assuming they are not ignorant. We can't know God without knowing Jesus Christ as God.

Amen that.

 

[makesends]

Second reply to this;

More thinking on this, only God can make Himself known to men, and we only know about God, what He has revealed of Himself, nothing more, nothing less. And when He makes something about Himself known, we can do nothing other than know and believe. We may not know a lot of something but, we know enough not to deny it. I believe if proclaimed Christians do not believe in the Trinity, either they are not among the present believers, which could change, or they hate God and deny Him.

Agreed, if I know what you mean. In one sense, for example, we always know less than what he has revealed, but then, you could counter, he reveals to each according to his purposes. I could say we don't know enough to not deny some true details, and you could counter by, "Let's not get into the weeds"! I get your point.

The passage I like here is John 10: "My sheep know my voice."

But there may well be some who die Rc's or even some Jw's who we will see in Heaven. I cannot prohibit it, lest my own measurement is used against me, and my words condemn me. God have mercy on us all.

CS Lewis had a controversial mention of a boy in one of his last books of the Narnia series, by the sound of it analogous of an Islamic religion, who did not see his Almighty God as others there did, but as the merciful and loving One who made a way to be with Him. And in the end of the boy's story, he is saved. I don't quite see that as sophistry, though it may be worth questioning just what was Lewis thinking, there.

 

[David Lamb]

Amen not God as Christ is us. . . .dying mankind

Christ defines the us that did not go out from the real us

Whatever does, "Amen not God as Christ is us" mean? Your post unfortunately does not make sense in English.

 

[Carbon]

Agreed, if I know what you mean. In one sense, for example, we always know less than what he has revealed, but then, you could counter, he reveals to each according to his purposes. I could say we don't know enough to not deny some true details, and you could counter by, "Let's not get into the weeds"! I get your point.

The passage I like here is John 10: "My sheep know my voice."

Yes. Awesome!

But there may well be some who die Rc's or even some Jw's who we will see in Heaven. I cannot prohibit it, lest my own measurement is used against me, and my words condemn me. God have mercy on us all.

Oh I agree.

CS Lewis had a controversial mention of a boy in one of his last books of the Narnia series, by the sound of it analogous of an Islamic religion, who did not see his Almighty God as others there did, but as the merciful and loving One who made a way to be with Him. And in the end of the boy's story, he is saved. I don't quite see that as sophistry, though it may be worth questioning just what was Lewis thinking, there.

 

[Carbon]

Whatever does, "Amen not God as Christ is us" mean? Your post unfortunately does not make sense in English.

Yes. Ya know, I was thinking g the same thing.
@Mr GLee ?

 

[Mr GLee]

Whatever does, "Amen not God as Christ is us" mean? Your post unfortunately does not make sense in English.

Whatever does, "Amen not God as Christ is us" mean? Your post unfortunately does not make sense in English.

It means God as Christ the one good teaching master our husband is not us (dying mankind) He works his powerful "let there be" faith in us.

Jesus the Son of man born again as one of the many Chrsitians as sons of God

He is not ashamed to call us brother sister or mother

Two witneses below

Matthew 12:50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mark 3:35For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Is Jesus your brother in the Lord?

Satan's goal to deceive all the nations of the world that God is a dying Jewish man as King of kings.

He tried to use Peter that way in Mathew 16. Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy against the Son of man Jesus, no forgiveness of blasphemy against the invisible Holy Father

God is not a creation

 

[Mr GLee]

Agreed, though, to be honest, those who deny the Trinity may only be ignorant.

I have tried to sound out @Mr GLee to understand what he really means or thinks. He repeatedly posits, whether he means to or not, the notion that Jesus Christ was a either a hybrid or two persons in one occasion, not even in one body. He seems unable to accept that Jesus Christ was one person with two natures. His insistence in his understanding as opposed to Christian Orthodoxy should have given him pause by now.

I would offer.

To begin with God is supernatural. without nature

He remains without mother and father, without genealogy, without beginning of day or end of spirit life.

The dynamic duo. Two is the number assigned to represent God not seen has spoken. Therefore, using the son of man Jesus to outward display as a sign to all the nations displaying the power of the Father to raise the dead

The Son of man Jesus like all born again sons of God (Christians)

Why give the resurrection power of faith over to a dying earthen body?

Where would that leave the Holy Father. . . . .in Rome the Pope?

 

[David Lamb]

I would offer.

To begin with God is supernatural. without nature

He remains without mother and father, without genealogy, without beginning of day or end of spirit life.

The dynamic duo. Two is the number assigned to represent God not seen has spoken.

Where does the bible say that two is the number assigned to represent God?

Therefore, using the son of man Jesus to outward display as a sign to all the nations displaying the power of the Father to raise the dead

The Son of man Jesus like all born again sons of God (Christians)

Jesus Christ, according to God's word, the bible, is the Son of God:

“And the angel answered and said to her, "[The] Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.” (Lu 1:35 NKJV)

“But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, "I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!" Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."” (Mt 26:63-64 NKJV)

“Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him, He said to him, "Do you believe in the Son of God?" He answered and said, "Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?" And Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him and it is He who is talking with you." Then he said, "Lord, I believe!" And he worshiped Him.” (Joh 9:35-38 NKJV)

“Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,” (Joh 17:1 NKJV)

“but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.” (Joh 20:31 NKJV)

“"God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.’” (Ac 13:33 NKJV)

All those quotes from the bible say that Jesus is the Son of God.

Why give the resurrection power of faith over to a dying earthen body?

Where would that leave the Holy Father. . . . .in Rome the Pope?

I don't believe in having a pope. I don't know why you mention him. I have never mentioned him in my posts.

Please, give biblical quotes to support what you say. At the moment, you seem just to keep saying things which contradict what the bible says.

 

[Eleanor]

Hi Thanks

Sorry, It seems you have difficulty in rightly dividing parables

I have no problem understanding the parables of the NT.

You mistakenly see your missives as biblical "parables."

Stick to Biblical terminology used in the Biblical manner if you want me to understand what you are presenting.

The word of God cannot be improved. . .your additions are only subtractions.

 

[Eleanor]

Second reply to this;

More thinking on this, only God can make Himself known to men, and we only know about God, what He has revealed of Himself, nothing more, nothing less. And when He makes something about Himself known, we can do nothing other than know and believe. We may not know a lot of something but, we know enough not to deny it. I believe if proclaimed Christians do not believe in the Trinity, either they are not among the present believers, which could change, or they hate God and deny Him.

Particularly when the NT presents all three as persons executing personal actions; e.g., the Father sending the Son as well as the Holy Spirit, and the Son sending the Holy Spirit.

Persons don't send themselves, they send a person other than themselves..

 

[Eleanor]

Whatever does, "Amen not God as Christ is us" mean? Your post unfortunately does not make sense in English.

I wonder if he uses a translation device of some kind. . .

 

[Eleanor]

I would offer.

To begin with God is supernatural. without nature

He has a nature, it is the divine nature of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit,
just as angels have the angelic nature, mankind has the human nature, and animals have the animal nature.

 

[makesends]

It means God as Christ the one good teaching master our husband is not us (dying mankind) He works his powerful "let there be" faith in us.

Jesus the Son of man born again as one of the many Chrsitians as sons of God

He is not ashamed to call us brother sister or mother

Two witneses below

Matthew 12:50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mark 3:35For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Is Jesus your brother in the Lord?

Satan's goal to deceive all the nations of the world that God is a dying Jewish man as King of kings.

He tried to use Peter that way in Mathew 16. Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy against the Son of man Jesus, no forgiveness of blasphemy against the invisible Holy Father

God is not a creation

Let me try to translate that to English. Let me know if this is the basics of what your sentences mean. AND PLEASE NOBODY QUOTE THIS BELOW [in brackets, thus] AS THOUGH *I*, (Makesends), CAME UP WITH THAT. I DO NOT BELIEVE THE BELOW. DON'T QUOTE ME AS THOUGH I DO!!

[It means that God, as Christ, (who is also our teacher and husband) is not mankind, and not flesh, because flesh always dies. He is the one who works faith in us.​

​

[Jesus is the name of the Son of man, and was born again as Christians are, who are called sons of God.​

​

[He considers himself only our brother or sister or mother, because he is flesh​

​

[These two verses witness to what I am saying:​

Matthew 12:50 "For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother."​

Mark 3:35 "For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother."​

​

[Isn't Jesus your brother in the Lord?​

​

[It is Satan's goal to deceive all the nations of the world into believing that God, as King of Kings, became flesh, which by definition can only die.​

​

[Satan tried to use Peter to do that in Matthew 16. Peter was forgiven of that blasphemy against Jesus, but not against God.​

​

[God is not created, but Jesus was]​

AND, again, PLEASE, ANYBODY WHO QUOTES THAT, ATTRIBUTE IT TO @Mr GLee AND NOT TO ME! I DO NOT BELIEVE WHAT IS IN BRACKETS ABOVE.

​