Inseparability of Persons?

[Carbon]

Third Council of Constantinople states:

"For if anybody should mean a personal will, when in the holy Trinity there are said to be three Persons, it would be necessary that there should be asserted three personal wills, and three personal operations (which is absurd and truly profane). Since, as the truth of the Christian faith holds, the will is natural, where the one nature of the holy and inseparable Trinity is spoken of, it must be consistently understood that there is one natural will, and one natural operation"​

Inseparable Trinity and one natural operation. If I examine that to the Scriptures, then this is the conclusion:

Inseparability of Persons is a Trinity framework: "Just as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are inseparable, so they also work inseparably." Now the inseparable persons teaches that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct yet never divided between their persons. Since the three persons are ontologically inseparable, then each person fully possesses the one divine nature. There is distinction between them and their persons is indivisible. This means the Father cannot exist without the Son, the Son cannot exist without the Father, and the Spirit cannot exist without either. And wherever one person is present, all are present. Because the divine nature is one and cannot be partitioned among the persons. The persons are in each other; they do not exist alongside one another as separable persons, nor do they occupy different spaces. The Father doesn't abandon the Son when troubles come; he is never isolated and absent from the Son. The Son doesn't imitate the Father from a distance, rather the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. The Father is present and inseparable to the Son from eternally.

Ontologically Inseparable

⦁ The Son is not alone (John 8:29, 16:32).
⦁ Indwelling is inseparable (John 10:38, 14:10–11, 17:21).

Also, the Father has no “private” attributes because attributes belong to the one divine nature, not to the persons individually (John 16:15). If the Father has it, then the Son has it. The Father does not possess his own omnipotence, nor does the Son possess his own omnipotence, nor the Spirit his own; rather, there is one omnipotence of the one, undivided divine nature. There is not three operations but one divine operation possessed wholly and indivisibly by three persons sharing the same divine nature. The Son therefore does not merely sometimes operate in the Father’s attributes, as if his activity were occasional or derivative from the Father. The Father, the Son, and the Spirit acting inseparably in every manifestation of the divine attributes below is a few examples of this. The Father is not acting alone or the Son acting independently. The Father is not acting instead of the Son, nor the Son acting apart from the Father. They don't perform parallel actions, nor do they divide tasks among themselves, nor do they contribute separate causal “parts” to a shared work; rather, every action of God is the single, undivided act of the one divine nature, personally expressed through Father, Son, and Spirit.

Inseparable in One Operation

⦁ The operation is one coextensive, simultaneous, and identical with the Father (John 5:19). The Father's works and technically the Son's work from one inseparable operation (John 10:38, 14:10–11). Example of this would be both the Father and Son raises the dead and gives life (John 5:21). Or no one can snatch them from both the Father and Son's omnipotence (John 10:28–30). Even though the Spirit is not mentioned; he is automatically present and operating too. Every work is therefore a single, undivided operation of God being expressed through Father, Son, and Spirit. This is vividly displayed in the divine attribute of sovereignty in (Matthew 8:23–27), where Jesus rises and rebukes the winds and the waves, and creation instantly obeys him. The calming of the storm is not the Father acting apart from the Son, nor the Son acting independently of the Father, nor the Spirit absent from the event; rather, it is one sovereign act of the one divine nature, manifested through the human nature of Christ.

⦁ The Son is not acting independently from the Father and Spirit (Mark 2:1–12). Each person has the same omniscience. So, when the Son knows the thoughts of the scribes: He knows them from the one divine omniscience of God alone. Automatically the Father and Spirit also know them, because they possess the same omniscience. The operation of omniscience is according to the divine nature predicted to the Son-person and revealed to his human spirit (Mark 2:8). This is not intuition, guesswork, or prophetic insight. It is direct, immediate, intrinsic knowledge, which Scripture attributes to God alone (Mark 2:6-8). This verse explicitly reveals the omniscience of the Son's Deity. But because omniscience is an essential divine attribute, and because the divine nature is one, this moment implicitly reveals the omniscience of all three persons of God alone. There is only one inseparable operation. When the Son operates in a attribute, the other two persons automatically function inseparably in it too, vice versa to each person. The Son displays omniscience directly. The Father and Spirit operate in the same omniscience by logical necessity, because omniscience belongs to the one divine nature.

*There is more I can add to the list of the one operation like "omnipotent" and "divine will." But the thought of this is self-explanatory. Iron sharpens iron, Christ Centered Apologetic Ministries (CCAM) is a good place to test your thought. If you happen to agree with my results, then why? And if you happen to disagree with my results, then why? I look forward to the discussion. Thanks.

This is a very deep subject; there is no angelic or human that can comprehend the hidden excellency of this glorious mystery. But God has made it discoverable, at least to a certain point, by divine revelation in His written word. So by faith we must receive and admire what our reasoning cannot comprehend. Therefore, I believe it is of utmost importance that the Tri-unity should be soberly discussed and explained. Seems there may be many who, throughout the years and even presently, who do not have a good understanding.

We thankfully do read of the Triune God in His word.

 

[Carbon]

Thank you, Carbon. I encourage you to ask questions and anything you want me to clarify.

I sure will.

This can turn into a really awesome discussion to enhance our Trinity knowledge.

Lord willing.

 

[Carbon]

If there is only one will why does He not know it? That is the date the Father set according to His own will.

“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Some things you should really consider are the attributes of God subscribed to the Lord Jesus Christ.
A few for example,

The eternity of God, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1.

Jesus Christ is the First and the Last, When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, Rev 1:17.

Scripture describes the supremacy and creative power of Jesus Christ, 15 iHe is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by 16 him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. Col 1:15-16

Scripture tells of Christ's omnipotence, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself. Phil 3:21.


Isaiah 44:6: "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God".

Revelation 22:13: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last" (spoken by Jesus).


Rev 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

There is so, so much more. But of course there is.

 

[Paul]

This is the confusion expected from those who do not believe in the Godhead of Christ.

Is that accurate of your belief?

I quote Jesus often as I believe in Him.
"That they may be on as we are one"
"I in them and you in me"

"It is the Father living in me doing His work"


The Godhead -exactly as written
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent

Then I heard every creature—in heaven, on earth, under the earth, in the sea, and all that is in them—singing: “To the one seated on the throne and to the Lamb be praise, honor, glory, and ruling power forever and ever!”

Now about Gods Son
the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him -This is the Fathers Deity- They are one in this Deity and Christ is the imprint of the Fathers very being-the image of the invisible God -a promise Son who is called God and is God in this context -

Jesus -not my will but your will be done

He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.

Jesus rembers the one who was a liar and murderer from the beginning.
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven
He testfies to what He saw and heard in Gods presence
The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony.

Yet He doesn't know the date and hour the Father has kept to Himself. -He never knew.

 

[Arial]

The position is what an anti-trin must distinguish as to which nature supplies the particular attribute predicated of the Son in passages such as Matthew 24:36. In this case, the attribute of ignorance—a lack of knowledge—is properly assigned to the Son according to his human nature, which is the source of such limitations, while according to his divine nature he remains fully omniscient. Because the Son subsists in the hypostatic union, he can truly be said both to know and not to know the day and hour: he knows it according to the divine nature yet does not know it from the human nature. This position is no different from other scriptural instances in which the Son, according to his humanity, grows in wisdom (Luke 2:52), approaches a fig tree to see if it has fruit (Mark 11:12–13), asks where Lazarus has been laid (John 11:33–35), or inquires who touched him in the crowd (Luke 8:45–46). Each of these reflects the genuine human cognitive limitations assumed in the incarnation without compromising the Son’s eternal omniscience.

I agree with what you are saying (this post and the OP) though I need to read it probably more than once more to fully absorb all they contain and process it into full comprehension and retained knowledge , that I would be able to articulate.

It is in an effort to aid this process that I ask the following question. Does the above mean that according to Jesus' human nature, the things he did not know as per the examples, were unknown to his human nature because his divine nature did not communicate the information to him?

Also, I would like to offer another example and that is Jesus calling God Father, which is a primary stumbling block to anti-trinitarians. He took on the full nature of us (minus the sin nature we get from being born in Adam). He became our representative just as Adam was our first and natural representative. Jesus walked among us as one of us, and as one of us, called God his Father. This makes the way through adoption by God through the Son, of God being our covenant Father. So of course, he called him Father. It was his humanity that called him Father, not his divinity. Father is the New Covenant name for God, just as the OC had its name for God---in English I AM.

 

[Binyawmene]

I agree with what you are saying (this post and the OP) though I need to read it probably more than once more to fully absorb all they contain and process it into full comprehension and retained knowledge , that I would be able to articulate.

Thank you, Arial. Take your time to absorb, especially the one divine operation. It can be a higher level of Christology for the Deity of Christ and probably the least concept that is talked about. Most Trinitarians only give a Hypostatic Union structural pattern like "according to the divine nature" for his Deity.

It is in an effort to aid this process that I ask the following question. Does the above mean that according to Jesus' human nature, the things he did not know as per the examples, were unknown to his human nature because his divine nature did not communicate the information to him?

The simple short answer is no. Why? Because the Hypostatic does not teach that the divine nature “withheld” information from the human nature; rather, the human nature simply lacked certain knowledge because a created human intellect is by name finite. And from a Dyophysitism perspective, the human mind of Christ knows what belongs to a human intellect, while the divine mind knows all things eternally, and the single Person of the Son is the acting subject of both sets of operations. This means the human nature’s ignorance in certain moments is not the result of the divine nature refusing to communicate information, but the natural limitation being expressed in a genuine human intellect operating within its proper created boundaries.

Also, I would like to offer another example and that is Jesus calling God Father, which is a primary stumbling block to anti-trinitarians. He took on the full nature of us (minus the sin nature we get from being born in Adam). He became our representative just as Adam was our first and natural representative. Jesus walked among us as one of us, and as one of us, called God his Father. This makes the way through adoption by God through the Son, of God being our covenant Father. So of course, he called him Father. It was his humanity that called him Father, not his divinity. Father is the New Covenant name for God, just as the OC had its name for God---in English I AM.

There are two frameworks --

a). "all titles belongs to the Person and not of the distinctive natures."

The title Son is the expression his divinity.
The title Son is the expression his humanity.​

b). "all attributes belongs to the distinctive natures and not of the Person."

The attribute omniscience is according to the divine nature.
The attribute lack of knowledge is according to the human nature.​

We probably might slightly differ on this explanation. In the incarnation the title Son is one Theanthropic Person and we distinguish divinity and humanity by what is being predicted of him like lack of knowledge (Matthew 24:36) according to the human nature and like omniscient (John 16:30) according to the divine nature. On the other hand, the title Son belongs to Christ in an eternal sense (Hebrews 1:2, Romans 8:3, Galatians 4:4), not merely through the incarnation. The title Son is where the concept "Eternal Relation" emerges, which the second Person is eternally begotten of the Father, a divine, timeless, non‑creaturely procession that defines his personal identity within the Trinity (John 1:14, 18, 3:16, 18, 1 John 4:9). While the incarnation does not create the Son but reveals the eternal Son in human flesh, so that the one who becomes incarnate is already the eternally begotten Son. So, the title Son is not a temporal designation arising from the virgin birth but the eternal identity of the second Person, who through the incarnation becomes the Son in the human nature without ceasing to be the Son in divine nature.

 

[Arial]

Thank you, Arial. Take your time to absorb, especially the one divine operation. It can be a higher level of Christology for the Deity of Christ and probably the least concept that is talked about. Most Trinitarians only give a Hypostatic Union structural pattern like "according to the divine nature" for his Deity.

You are welcome. It is new to me, but I welcome the opportunity to plumb the depths.

The simple short answer is no. Why? Because the Hypostatic does not teach that the divine nature “withheld” information from the human nature; rather, the human nature simply lacked certain knowledge because a created human intellect is by name finite. And from a Dyophysitism perspective, the human mind of Christ knows what belongs to a human intellect, while the divine mind knows all things eternally, and the single Person of the Son is the acting subject of both sets of operations. This means the human nature’s ignorance in certain moments is not the result of the divine nature refusing to communicate information, but the natural limitation being expressed in a genuine human intellect operating within its proper created boundaries.

I understand that, and possibly it is what I meant by the divine nature not communicating certain information the human, finite mind of Christ. I didn't mean it in the sense that it was withheld---just that it wasn't given, therefore Jesus in his humanity didn't know the answer. His finite humanity did not have that information. But wouldn't that be because it was not communicated to his finite mind. There are many instances where Jesus in his humanity knew only what deity can know. And he said he only said and did what the Father told him to say and do. I am having a hard time finding the line there.

 

[Binyawmene]

You are welcome. It is new to me, but I welcome the opportunity to plumb the depths.

A thought came to my mind. The other day when I was doing my logical analytical critique and assessment. I've discovered something which is "the divine operation of is asymmetrical." In basic terms that the divine operation can only go one way and the human nature is the object which the operation is demonstrated through. "Whatever the Father does the Son also does" is a divine operation, and the same can be said (John 5:30; 8:28; 12:49; 14:10) and also (John 4:34, 5:36, 14:31, 17:4). Some Trinitarians would suggest this is an appeal to Christ is subordinate to the Father according to the human nature, while Third Council of Constantinople suggest that this is a divine operation.

"We also proclaim two natural wills in him and two natural operations, without separation, without change, without partition, without confusion, according to the teaching of the holy Fathers — and two natural wills not contrary to each other, God forbid, as the impious heretics have said they would be, but his human will following, and not resisting or opposing, but rather subject to his divine and all-powerful will."

John 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.​

a). The divine will cannot be obedient. The divine will cannot be described as obedient because obedience is a property of a created rational will, not of the uncreated divine nature. The divine will is omnipotent, sovereign, and the very source of all authority; it cannot be commanded, subordinated, or conditioned by anything outside itself. To speak of the divine will obeying would be to invert the Creator–creature distinction. Therefore, when Christ obeys the Father, he does so according to his human will, not his divine will. The divine nature neither receives commands nor submits to them; rather, the human will of Christ freely and perfectly aligns with the one divine will he shares eternally with the Father.

b). The human will be obedient. Christ speaks and acts according to his human nature, revealing a genuine obedience of his human will to the Father. This obedience is not ontological but economic, rooted in the reality that the incarnate Son possesses a complete human nature with a true human will. As man, he receives commands, learns obedience, and accomplishes the mission given to him by the Father. This obedience is the proper activity of his humanity, not a diminution of his Deity. The human will of Christ freely aligns itself with the divine will, demonstrating perfect filial obedience and fulfilling the role of the Second Adam.

c). The human will function in the one divine operation. The human will of Christ functions in the divine operation through free, harmonious consent. The divine will initiate the operation, and the human will receive, embraces, and cooperates with it without resistance or deviation. This cooperation is not coercive, but the human will is in full alignment with the divine will. The divine operation is then manifested through the human nature as its instrument, producing a theandric action—divine works performed through human faculties. In this way, the human will participate in the divine operation without becoming its source, and the divine operation is expressed without compromising the divine nature.

d). The divine will cannot function in the one human operation. The divine will cannot operate from the human will as its source because this would subordinate the divine nature to the human nature and make the divine operation dependent on a created human faculty. If the divine will be conditioned by the human will, the divine operation would be limited by human weakness. This would invert the order of causality in the Hypostatic Union. The human nature would become the controlling principle of divine action. Instead, the proper order is asymmetrical: the divine will act through the human will, but the divine will be never acted upon by the human will. The human will consent, participates, and cooperates to the divine operation.

There are other verses of the divine operation being demonstrated without the human nature of Christ participation like creation is from the Father and through the Son. And the hot debated verse in Mark 1:41 "I am willing" is either divine will or a human will. If, it is a divine will, then the Father’s willing is the Son’s willing, and the Son’s willing is the Father’s willing, or if it is the human will, then how does the divine will function in the human operation?

I understand that, and possibly it is what I meant by the divine nature not communicating certain information the human, finite mind of Christ. I didn't mean it in the sense that it was withheld---just that it wasn't given, therefore Jesus in his humanity didn't know the answer. His finite humanity did not have that information. But wouldn't that be because it was not communicated to his finite mind. There are many instances where Jesus in his humanity knew only what deity can know. And he said he only said and did what the Father told him to say and do. I am having a hard time finding the line there.

There is a doctrine called "Genus Maiestaticum." And much respect for the Lutherans but I reject this doctrine.

 

[Arial]

A thought came to my mind. The other day when I was doing my logical analytical critique and assessment. I've discovered something which is "the divine operation of is asymmetrical." In basic terms that the divine operation can only go one way and the human nature is the object which the operation is demonstrated through. "Whatever the Father does the Son also does" is a divine operation, and the same can be said (John 5:30; 8:28; 12:49; 14:10) and also (John 4:34, 5:36, 14:31, 17:4). Some Trinitarians would suggest this is an appeal to Christ is subordinate to the Father according to the human nature, while Third Council of Constantinople suggest that this is a divine operation.

"We also proclaim two natural wills in him and two natural operations, without separation, without change, without partition, without confusion, according to the teaching of the holy Fathers — and two natural wills not contrary to each other, God forbid, as the impious heretics have said they would be, but his human will following, and not resisting or opposing, but rather subject to his divine and all-powerful will."​

​

John 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.​

a). The divine will cannot be obedient. The divine will cannot be described as obedient because obedience is a property of a created rational will, not of the uncreated divine nature. The divine will is omnipotent, sovereign, and the very source of all authority; it cannot be commanded, subordinated, or conditioned by anything outside itself. To speak of the divine will obeying would be to invert the Creator–creature distinction. Therefore, when Christ obeys the Father, he does so according to his human will, not his divine will. The divine nature neither receives commands nor submits to them; rather, the human will of Christ freely and perfectly aligns with the one divine will he shares eternally with the Father.

b). The human will be obedient. Christ speaks and acts according to his human nature, revealing a genuine obedience of his human will to the Father. This obedience is not ontological but economic, rooted in the reality that the incarnate Son possesses a complete human nature with a true human will. As man, he receives commands, learns obedience, and accomplishes the mission given to him by the Father. This obedience is the proper activity of his humanity, not a diminution of his Deity. The human will of Christ freely aligns itself with the divine will, demonstrating perfect filial obedience and fulfilling the role of the Second Adam.

c). The human will function in the one divine operation. The human will of Christ functions in the divine operation through free, harmonious consent. The divine will initiate the operation, and the human will receive, embraces, and cooperates with it without resistance or deviation. This cooperation is not coercive, but the human will is in full alignment with the divine will. The divine operation is then manifested through the human nature as its instrument, producing a theandric action—divine works performed through human faculties. In this way, the human will participate in the divine operation without becoming its source, and the divine operation is expressed without compromising the divine nature.

d). The divine will cannot function in the one human operation. The divine will cannot operate from the human will as its source because this would subordinate the divine nature to the human nature and make the divine operation dependent on a created human faculty. If the divine will be conditioned by the human will, the divine operation would be limited by human weakness. This would invert the order of causality in the Hypostatic Union. The human nature would become the controlling principle of divine action. Instead, the proper order is asymmetrical: the divine will act through the human will, but the divine will be never acted upon by the human will. The human will consent, participates, and cooperates to the divine operation.

There are other verses of the divine operation being demonstrated without the human nature of Christ participation like creation is from the Father and through the Son. And the hot debated verse in Mark 1:41 "I am willing" is either divine will or a human will. If, it is a divine will, then the Father’s willing is the Son’s willing, and the Son’s willing is the Father’s willing, or if it is the human will, then how does the divine will function in the human operation?



There is a doctrine called "Genus Maiestaticum." And much respect for the Lutherans but I reject this doctrine.

In reading what you described above concerning Jesus' human will---which is exactly like ours and is something I have long understood---it strikes home that that is the way our will was created to be. Exactly in line with the will of our Sovereign creator (his image and likeness). Adam, having volitional agency, fell short of that mark. Jesus as man having volitional agency, did not. And just to be absolutely clear, we only have the one nature and will only ever have the one nature, but Christ also has the divine nature. And it is only through having our nature that he can be our substitute, and only through having the divine nature that he could possess in himself the life eternal that he gives, and that raised himself from the dead.

 

[Binyawmene]

In reading what you described above concerning Jesus' human will---which is exactly like ours and is something I have long understood---it strikes home that that is the way our will was created to be. Exactly in line with the will of our Sovereign creator (his image and likeness). Adam, having volitional agency, fell short of that mark. Jesus as man having volitional agency, did not. And just to be absolutely clear, we only have the one nature and will only ever have the one nature, but Christ also has the divine nature. And it is only through having our nature that he can be our substitute, and only through having the divine nature that he could possess in himself the life eternal that he gives, and that raised himself from the dead.

Yes, I totally agree. But I will add impeccable based on Hebrews 2:17 and 4:15.

Christ’s human will is considered impeccable because it belongs to the eternal person of the Son, who is divine and therefore incapable of sinning, yet this impeccability does not diminish the reality or freedom of his true human will. His human will is structurally identical to ours like rational, capable of deliberation, capable of natural human hesitation. But unlike ours, his human will is unfallen and perfectly aligned with the divine will obediently. The human will is impeccable because the acting subject of that human will is the eternal person of the Son, so his human will not ever deviate into sin.

Basically, Christ human will have some unique advantages for us and for our salvation. But still like our human will in every way and respect.