Transferred Wrath

[Carbon]

I tried that … they are waiting to talk instead of listening.
L8r

And it was addressed? Were you not paying attention?

 

[civic]

This has already been addressed. That's obvious, also. And remember, if the rulers of this world knew what Christ was doing, they may never have crucified him.

Agreed His Glory was veiled from them

 

[makesends]

Notice carefully the wording in 53:4- WE considered him punished by God , stricken and afflicted.

It does not say God punished Him, stricken Him, afflicted Him.

There is a big difference between what it says and assuming what it says.

Are you saying God did not do to Jesus 'what he would have done' to us?

 

[civic]

Are you saying God did not do to Jesus 'what he would have done' to us?

The Father didn’t do anything in wrath, anger, vengeance , retribution to the Son. He made atonement , covered our sins, our Passover , substitution.

We see God the Son described His own death, the Atonement in 4 ways. Theology begins with God. He said His death was a Substitution, a Ransom, a Passover, a Sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- Expiation.

1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13 Substitution, Ransom

2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18 Substitution, Ransom

3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15Substitution, Ransom

4- Jesus viewed His death as the Passover John 6:51

5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a Ransom for many- Matthew 20:28

6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- Substitution, John 10:11

7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- Substitution

8 -This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28

 

[civic]

I’m heading out to home group with my wife in a few I’ll check in later. Good discussion.

 

[Carbon]

It's amazing some can say Christ was not crushed. But when things aren't accepted, they look at words in the sense that they are not meant to be looked at. For example, crushed, do you expect Christ to be literally crushed until he burst? Seems some do.
But Jesus was crushed.


_Smeaton_
He bore the soul-trouble that his people might not bear it, he drank the cup of the garden that they might not drink it, Jesus was forsaken on the cross that they might never know that desertion, he felt what sin is and what it felt like to be severed from God, that we might never taste it, he proclaimed with a loud voice the inconcieveble agonies of that desertion, that he might convey to those who heard him or who should afterwards pursue his sufferings to the end of time, a due impression of the infinate weight of sin and of the penal desertion it entails.

As far as the mental condition of the Son of God during this penal loss of God, and retribution for the sin which he made his own, it may be safely affirmed that he then eperienced the essence of eternal death, or that sense of abandonmment which will from the bitterest ingredient in the cup of the finally impentenent.

Crushing enough?

 

[ReverendRV]

Nope see below.

Why do you say Nope? In Marriage Counseling, we're told not to speak in Absolutes. This reminds me of olden times with you. Below is an excerpt from my Google Link in my Post above...

The concept of the "great and terrible day of the Lord" is prominent in both the Old Testament and Revelation. In the Old Testament, it refers to a time of divine judgment and wrath, often associated with destruction and upheaval. In the Book of Revelation, it is a recurring theme that symbolizes the final judgments of God and the Lamb, including the destruction of evil and the establishment of God's kingdom.

The Crucifixion of Christ was the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord, right?

 

[David1701]

I tried that … they are waiting to talk instead of listening.
L8r

Not so; I listened and responded to that point. You even gave my post a "like".

"Jesus asked why God had forsaken him; whatever else is true, it is so that God had, in fact, forsaken him, even if only for a moment.

As far as Jesus being stricken by man and not God is concerned: God uses people to carry out his purposes. God used the Babylonians, Assyrians, etc., to afflict Israel; in the same way, God used the Romans (and others) to bring about the punishment of the cross in Jesus' life. God afflicted Jesus, using them as the means. God works all things according to the counsel of his own will."

Post in Question

 

[Carbon]

The Father didn’t do anything in wrath, anger, vengeance , retribution to the Son.

No one said otherwise. Remember this? and behold, a voice from the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” Matthew 3:17.

But remember, Jesus came to do what the Father sent him to do. And when sin was imputed unto him, things changed.

He made atonement , covered our sins, our Passover , substitution.

Covered our sins? He removed our sins from us as far as the east is from the west.

 

[ReverendRV]

As far as Jesus being stricken by man and not God is concerned: God uses people to carry out his purposes. God used the Babylonians, Assyrians, etc., to afflict Israel; in the same way, God used the Romans (and others) to bring about the punishment of the cross in Jesus' life. God afflicted Jesus, using them as the means. God works all things according to the counsel of his own will."

Post in QuQuestion

And don't forget the Providence of God. Press that, it should settle things...

He believes in God's Providence, just as you do...

 

[David1701]

And don't forget the Providence of God. Press that, it should settle things...

He believes in God's Providence, just as you do...

I think that God's providence is covered in, "God works all things according to the counsel of his own will.".

 

[Carbon]

The Father didn’t do anything in wrath, anger, vengeance , retribution to the Son. He made atonement , covered our sins, our Passover , substitution.

We see God the Son described His own death, the Atonement in 4 ways. Theology begins with God. He said His death was a Substitution, a Ransom, a Passover, a Sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- Expiation.

1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13 Substitution, Ransom

2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18 Substitution, Ransom

3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15Substitution, Ransom

4- Jesus viewed His death as the Passover John 6:51

5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a Ransom for many- Matthew 20:28

6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- Substitution, John 10:11

7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- Substitution

8 -This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28

We must not forget that Jesus was a sacrifice from the very commencement of his earthly life, and his collective sufferings are to be viewed as belonging to his work as substitution and as the one discharge of his mediatorial work.

 

[ReverendRV]

I think that God's providence is covered in, "God works all things according to the counsel of his own will.".

I just like answers that should settle arguments...

When a person believes in Providence, there's really no rebuttal for that. It's the Irresistible Force versus the Unmovable Object. Wham Bam...


This is too easy...

 

[makesends]

The Father didn’t do anything in wrath, anger, vengeance , retribution to the Son. He made atonement , covered our sins, our Passover , substitution.

We see God the Son described His own death, the Atonement in 4 ways. Theology begins with God. He said His death was a Substitution, a Ransom, a Passover, a Sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- Expiation.

1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13 Substitution, Ransom

2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18 Substitution, Ransom

3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15Substitution, Ransom

4- Jesus viewed His death as the Passover John 6:51

5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a Ransom for many- Matthew 20:28

6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- Substitution, John 10:11

7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- Substitution

8 -This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28

So what the Bible describes as wrath that would have been ours, but for Jesus atonement, is just invalidated? You may as well, like the mockers that say Jesus took a 'dirt nap', say that God should have just forgiven —why kill Jesus?

Frankly, and not saying I do understand, I don't think you understand what God's wrath is. The punishment, payment, everything that would have been ours, but for Christ, was laid on him. The principle is unmistakable.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Deleted and bowing out.
The signal to noise ratio has gotten uncomfortable.
I don’t need the accusations.

Before you go let me point something out quickly. I had a reason for defining wrath Scripturally. .

When we read the curses of Deuteronomy we notice the one thing it shows, when taken as a whole.

It shows that a curse for sin is an absolute absence of God's provisions, goodness and care. All the good things we have comes from God, all provision comes from His hand.

The curse for sin is be to without God in any respect and all that would entail for God to actually hate us (ie: eschew evil).

"My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

God is a Holy God and He hates sin, meaning: He doesn't fellowship with it... To be cursed is not emotional, God the Father wasn't 'spitting mad' at Jesus when He was on the cross.

To be sin is to have no fellowship with God. Wrath is to be cast from His presence and all provision, care and presence.

Jesus in His flesh experienced that on the cross as the sacrifice for sin, in our stead, so that we could be reconciled to God.

He rose again because He knew no sin. But what He bore on the cross was wrath poured out, the wrath we rightly deserved.

"My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

 

[Hazelelponi]

My musings.

When God poured out the absence of His provision for the second Person of the Trinity, that which is Life itself wrapped in flesh, to suffer ignoble death, an absence of provision, care and presence, it was a weight so weighty as to rend the fabric of time and space itself.

And it was some serious wrath... That we deserved. We saw our death which would have been eternal poured out on that cross, in the death of that which is Life itself in our stead, and that's a very major deal.

That was our curse, so that we might rise to eternal life just as He did.

So yes, God's wrath, His punishment for sin, was poured out on Jesus. It's penal. Or did you think Life should suffer death?The mystery is that it was even possible to be both Just and Justifier - but in God's triune nature He did.

Okay, back to fighting.

 

[ReverendRV]

My musings.

When God poured out the absence of His provision for the second Person of the Trinity, that which is Life itself wrapped in flesh, to suffer ignoble death, an absence of provision, care and presence, it was a weight so weighty as to rend the fabric of time and space itself.

I think we should talk about the Hypostatic Union, and how good an aim God is at pouring Wrath on just Jesus the son of Mary; without hitting the Logos, the Son of God...

I know, I know; the two are One. But the Chalcedonian Creed says the two are inseparable but are Unmixed. That sets us teetering on that eternal seesaw; somehow God can do it, no matter how fine tuned the Union is. I know, I know; the Communicatio Idiomatum means they share Natures and experiences, but I think this is the Hinge that the dispute; hinges on...

Okay, back to fighting.

There's the fuse...

 

[civic]

So what the Bible describes as wrath that would have been ours, but for Jesus atonement, is just invalidated? You may as well, like the mockers that say Jesus took a 'dirt nap', say that God should have just forgiven —why kill Jesus?

Frankly, and not saying I do understand, I don't think you understand what God's wrath is. The punishment, payment, everything that would have been ours, but for Christ, was laid on him. The principle is unmistakable.

Notice it’s never on the innocent , righteous , holy , believers but always on the wicked and rebellious sinners. It’s not once said to be upon Christ from the Father.

Thayers lexicon

ὀργή, ὀργῆς, ἡ (from ὀργάω to teem, denoting an internal motion, especially that of plants and fruits swelling with juice (Curtius, § 152); cf.

Latinturgerealicuiforirascialicui in Plautus Cas. 2, 5, 17; Most. 3, 2, 10; cf. German arg, Aerger), in Greek writings from Hesiod down "the natural disposition, temper, character; movement or agitation of soul, impulse, desire, any violent emotion," but especially (and chiefly in Attic) anger.

In Biblical Greek anger, wrath, indignation(on the distinction between it and θυμός, see θυμός, 1): Ephesians 4:31; Colossians 3:8; James 1:19f; μετ' ὀργῆς, indignant (A. V. with anger), Mark 3:5; χωρίς ὀργῆς, 1 Timothy 2:8; anger exhibited in punishing, hence, used for the punishment itself (Demosthenes or. in middle § 43): of the punishments inflicted by magistrates,

Romans 13:4; διά τήν ὀργήν, i. e. because disobedience is visited with punishment, Romans 13:5. The ὀργή attributed to God in the N. T. is that in God which stands opposed to man's disobedience, obduracy (especially in resisting the gospel) and sin, and manifests itself in punishing the same: John 3:36; Romans 1:18; Romans 4:15; Romans 9:22a; Hebrews 3:11; Hebrews 4:3; Revelation 14:10; Revelation 16:19; Revelation 19:15; absolutely, ἡ ὀργή, Romans 12:19 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 594 (553));

σκεύη ὀργῆς, vessels into which wrath will be poured (at the last day), explained by the addition κατηρτισμέναεἰς ἀπώλειαν, Romans 9:22b; ἡ μελλουσαὀργή, which at the last day will be exhibited in penalties, Matthew 3:7; Luke 3:7 (others understand in these two passages the (national) judgments immediately impending to be referred to — at least primarily); also ἡ ὀργή ἡἐρχομένη, 1 Thessalonians 1:10; ἡμέραὀργῆς, the day on which the wrath of God will be made manifest in the punishment of the wicked (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 30, 2 a.), Romans 2:5; and ἡ ἡμέρα ἡ μεγάλητῆς ὀργῆς αὐτοῦ (Revelation 6:17; see ἡμέρα, 3 at the end); ἔρχεται ἡ ὀργή τοῦΘεοῦ ἐπί τινα, the wrath of God cometh upon one in the infliction of penalty (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 40, 2 a.), Ephesians 5:6; Colossians 3:6 (T Tr WH omit; Lbrackets ἐπί etc.); ἔφθασε (ἔφθακεν L text WH marginal reading) ἐπ' αὐτούς ἡ ὀργή, 1 Thessalonians 2:16; so ἡ ὀργή passes over into the notion of retribution and punishment, Luke 21:23; Rom. (Romans 2:8); ; Revelation 11:18; τέκνα ὀργῆς, men exposed to divine punishment, Ephesians 2:3; εἰς ὀργήν, unto wrath, i. e. to undergo punishment in misery, 1 Thessalonians 5:9. ὀργή is attributed to Christ also when he comes as Messianic judge, Revelation 6:16. (The Sept. for עֶבְרָה, wrath, outburst of anger,

Notice " Gods Wrath " it doesn’t fall on Christ but Jesus protects believes from Gods wrath

Wrath is defined as “the emotional response to perceived wrong and injustice,” often translated as “anger,” “indignation,” “vexation,” or “irritation.” Both humans and God express wrath. But there is vast difference between the wrath of God and the wrath of man. God’s wrath is holy and always justified; man’s is never holy and rarely justified.

In the Old Testament, the wrath of God is a divine response to human sin and disobedience. Idolatry was most often the occasion for divine wrath. Psalm 78:56-66 describes Israel’s idolatry. The wrath of God is consistently directed towards those who do not follow His will (Deuteronomy 1:26-46; Joshua 7:1; Psalm 2:1-6). The Old Testament prophets often wrote of a day in the future, the "day of wrath" (Zephaniah 1:14-15). God’s wrath against sin and disobedience is perfectly justified because His plan for mankind is holy and perfect, just as God Himself is holy and perfect. God provided a way to gain divine favor—repentance—which turns God’s wrath away from the sinner. To reject that perfect plan is to reject God’s love, mercy, grace and favor and incur His righteous wrath.

The New Testament also supports the concept of God as a God of wrath who judges sin. The story of the rich man and Lazarus speaks of the judgment of God and serious consequences for the unrepentant sinner (Luke 16:19–31). John 3:36 says, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.” The one who believes in the Son will not suffer God’s wrath for his sin, because the Son took God’s wrath upon Himself when He died in our place on the cross (Romans 5:6–11). Those who do not believe in the Son, who do not receive Him as Savior, will be judged on the day of wrath (Romans 2:5–6).

Conversely, human wrath is warned against in Romans 12:19, Ephesians 4:26, and Colossians 3:8-10. God alone is able to avenge because His vengeance is perfect and holy, whereas man’s wrath is sinful, opening him up to demonic influence. For the Christian, anger and wrath are inconsistent with our new nature, which is the nature of Christ Himself (2 Corinthians 5:17). To realize freedom from the domination of wrath, the believer needs the Holy Spirit to sanctify and cleanse his heart of feelings of wrath and anger. Romans 8 shows victory over sin in the life of one who is living in the Spirit (Romans 8:5-8). Philippians 4:4-7 tells us that the mind controlled by the Spirit is filled with peace.

The wrath of God is a fearsome and terrifying thing. Only those who have been covered by the blood of Christ, shed for us on the cross, can be assured that God’s wrath will never fall on them. “Since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through Him!” (Romans 5:9). Got?

hope this helps !!!

 

[Arial]

God pours out his wrath on those that do evil. Did Jesus do evil? No, then God did not pour out Divine wrath that Jesus deserved.

Do our sins deserve wrath? (assuming they are not FORGIVEN) yes. Does God pour his wrath on US? No. Does God pour the wrath for our sins (our wrath) on Jesus? [some seem to say so, even if YOU deny that any do]. Therefore, WRATH has been transferred from being poured out on US to being poured out on JESUS. The important part is not that God POURED his wrath, the important part is that God did not pour his wrath on US but poured it on JESUS instead (allegedly transferred).

I should have said, and intended to say, "poured out on him the punishment our sins deserved." And I will correct that. The punishment that Jesus took was in our place, not punishment that Christ deserved. And the atonement is not about God's wrath giving vent, it is about saving from his wrath, but destroying the power of sin for a people for God. It is about taking a people out of the kingdom of darkness and bringing them into the kingdom of Christ the victorious King.

Can his death in and of itself do that? Would a natural death do that? How? That would come closer to "abusing the innocent instead of the guilty" than the PSA of the Bible. So even if one says he poured out his wrath on Jesus instead of transferred his wrath to Jesus, it is the same flaw. However, the use of the word "transferred his wrath" completely changed the emotional perception----which of course, is the purpose of using that word. So since you will not give me a definitive answer to my question of why opponents of PSA use that word, there you have it. Then the argument against PCA becomes the request to show in the Bible anyplace where it says God's wrath is transferred to Jesus.

Perhaps that is why those who used to understand and believe PSA, were persuaded that it is a horrible accusation against God. It is a very effective tactic. The other one is to take passages like IS 53 that have long been a beautiful song of Christ's church to the power and glory and majesty of the cross and the person and work of Jesus, and pick one verse from it, verse four, and like a person not yet skilled in logic and reason cry, "See, it does not say Jesus was stricken by God, it says WE thought he was, but he wasn't!"

Which I will cover in another post in response to that very thing being done by @civic .

 

[civic]

Before you go let me point something out quickly. I had a reason for defining wrath Scripturally. .

When we read the curses of Deuteronomy we notice the one thing it shows, when taken as a whole.

It shows that a curse for sin is an absolute absence of God's provisions, goodness and care. All the good things we have comes from God, all provision comes from His hand.

The curse for sin is be to without God in any respect and all that would entail for God to actually hate us (ie: eschew evil).

"My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

God is a Holy God and He hates sin, meaning: He doesn't fellowship with it... To be cursed is not emotional, God the Father wasn't 'spitting mad' at Jesus when He was on the cross.

To be sin is to have no fellowship with God. Wrath is to be cast from His presence and all provision, care and presence.

Jesus in His flesh experienced that on the cross as the sacrifice for sin, in our stead, so that we could be reconciled to God.

He rose again because He knew no sin. But what He bore on the cross was wrath poured out, the wrath we rightly deserved.

"My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

Notice in the same Psalm 22 where Jesus quotes from why have you forsaken me it says the following.

The following scriptures affirm that Jesus' relationship with the Father on the cross was still there and not broken.

Psalm 22:24
For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

John 16:32
"A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me."

Hebrews 5:7
During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.