Transferred Wrath

[Carbon]

I actually know the meaning of the word "transfer" and I know the meaning of the word "wrath". What I was asking was why do the opponents say it is transferred wrath, rather than for example, poured out on him wrath. Do you see the difference?

Because they are confused. And trying to confuse.

I witnessed a man fall from this essential doctrine - PSA- and once it happened, it's a slippery slope. @atpollard, we must be careful here.

 

[David1701]

I am sympathetic to your ideas. When I studied the theories of atonement the author I read basically said all the theories had issues so, as with eschatology, I decided to not take a strong opinion on any theory.

Criticism of PSA from ChatGPT

1. Portrays God as Violent or Vengeful​

• Critics argue that PSA makes God seem like an angry judge who needs to punish someone — and Jesus steps in to take the hit.
• This can be seen as promoting a theology of divine child abuse (a phrase famously used by theologian Steve Chalke).

2. Justice Appears Inverted​

• Ethical objection: Punishing an innocent person (Jesus) instead of the guilty (us) seems morally wrong, even if it's voluntary.
• It challenges the idea of true justice — why would a loving and just God punish the innocent?

Too Legalistic or Transactional​

• PSA frames salvation in legal terms: crime, penalty, substitution.
• Critics argue this reduces the relational, mystical, or transformative aspects of salvation, turning it into a cold legal transaction.

---

Neglects Resurrection and Broader Gospel Themes​

• PSA tends to focus heavily on the crucifixion as punishment, often underplaying:
  • The resurrection as victory over death
  • The kingdom of God as a present reality
  • The call to transformation, justice, and discipleship

Inconsistent with God's Mercy and Forgiveness

• If God can only forgive after punishing someone, critics ask: is that true forgiveness?
• Why not just forgive without demanding a substitute be punished?

Which is why we should not trust A.I. for our theology...

The above objections, from ChatGPT, are all nonsense.

1) God does exact vengeance; and he is angry with the wicked every day.

Is. 59:15-18 (KJV)
15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment. 16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.
18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.

Rom. 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Ps. 7:11-13
11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.
12 If he turn not, he will whet his sword; he hath bent his bow, and made it ready.
13 He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; he ordaineth his arrows against the persecutors.

The phrase "divine child abuse" is a blasphemous attack on the cross, by that notorious heretic, Steve Chalke.

2) God's justice and mercy combine, in the cross. Jesus bore the full brunt of what deserve, so that we don't. The whole O.C. system of animal sacrifices is about substitution (animals died in the place of sinners who deserved to die), to show the need for the Messiah, as a sacrificial substitute.

3) PSA is not about all aspects of salvation, so it should not be expected to cover them all

4) As in number 3, PSA is about the atonement, not about all aspects of our salvation and relationship with God, so this objection is ridiculous.

5) It is Liberals, and other unbelievers, who ask why God cannot forgive, without a substitute! God's justice demands that sin be punished; so, it's either the sinner who gets justice (i.e. hell) or a sinless substitute (the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ).

 

[Arial]

God pours out his wrath on those that do evil. Did Jesus do evil? No, then God did not pour out Divine wrath that Jesus deserved.

That is because Jesus took it for us as our substitute. PSA does not say that God poured out his divine wrath on Jesus. That would only be the case if he had transferred our sins to Jesus. God poured out on Jesus' body (Son of Man) the punishment for our sins. He was killed like a criminal for no crimes he had committed, was buried, and rose from the grave because he was not a criminal or sinner. And because our sin was imputed to him, our sins met the satisfaction of Justice IN HIM., (which is how it provides justification) and only because of that imputed sin is his righteousness able to be imputed to us.

 

[Carbon]

I am not disclaiming any of those things. But Jesus was standing as a substitute for us. That is why he came as one of us, why he fulfilled all righteousness, both the legal code and the moral code of the law, so that he could be our substitute. So it is not as though PSA is saying what its opponents claim-----that it is some kind of vengeful unjust punishment. "I will punish you instead of them." And just to jump ahead a bit, or in case you don't deal with the rest of what @fastfredy0 posted in that post----the fact that Jesus obeyed both the legal and moral code, is where justice comes into the equation in PSA.

Soldier on!

 

[makesends]

So who says Jesus death was about WRATH?
Only the crowd mocking God in Matthew 27 (and PSA).

Can you see why I am reluctant to embrace WRATH as God's motive without some clearer scriptural proof?

What if it was the will of the FATHER and SON that the beloved SON should be crushed (suffer and die at the hands of evil men) to obtain the goal of CURSING sin and utterly defeating its power over all who are "in Christ" ... thereby redeeming a people for the GODHEAD that will honor the SON and bring glory to the FATHER?
[WRATH never enters into the picture.] What in Isiah 53 needs to be changed? Anything?

Is this your argument in the end, then, that PSA teaches that Jesus' death was about wrath?

PSA does not teach that God's motive for Jesus' death was wrath. God's motive for Jesus' death was about redemption, atonement, salvation, and a people for himself —not to mention quite a many other things.

 

[Carbon]

God pours out his wrath on those that do evil. Did Jesus do evil? No, then God did not pour out Divine wrath that Jesus deserved.

Sin isn't evil? Now we know and agree that Jesus had no inherent sin, but it was transferred to him through imputation.

Do our sins deserve wrath?

Yes, of course.

(assuming they are not FORGIVEN) yes.

Our sins deserve wrath no matter what. It is because of Jesus that we will not receive wrath.

Does God pour his wrath on US? No. Does God pour the wrath for our sins (our wrath) on Jesus?

Scripture teaches so.

[some seem to say so, even if YOU deny that any do]. Therefore, WRATH has been transferred from being poured out on US to being poured out on JESUS.

Your playing with words again as if you have an argument.

The important part is not that God POURED his wrath, the important part is that God did not pour his wrath on US but poured it on JESUS instead (allegedly transferred).


Do YOU see the difference?

 

[Carbon]

Explain the difference between “standing in as a substitute” and “transfer” (to convey or pass from one person to another).

These are some things you have to learn, brother.

 

[Carbon]

Peter (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) as recorded by Luke in the book of Acts … disagrees.
(as I quoted and you ignored)

Okay then, point me to the verse or passage where Peter says so. "The Father did not kill Jesus." <--- Peter said?

 

[atpollard]

Deleted and bowing out.
The signal to noise ratio has gotten uncomfortable.
I don’t need the accusations.

 

[Carbon]

Which is why we should not trust A.I. for our theology...

Amen brother. I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[makesends]

Being confident in my theology mentors, I KNEW it had to be in scripture, so I went looking for the Scriptural proof for TWO facts:

• WRATH/PUNISHMENT from GOD fell on Jesus (the FATHER was angry at the SON)

Was he not "MADE SIN" for us?

• The punishment JESUS received is the punishment WE should have gotten.

The fact that nowhere are the redeemed said to receive the punishment doesn't mean we should not have. You are, in corollary fashion, entering the is-ought problem.

 

[Dave]

Isaiah 53:4-6

 

[ReverendRV]

The concept of the "great and terrible day of the Lord" is prominent in both the Old Testament and Revelation. In the Old Testament, it refers to a time of divine judgment and wrath, often associated with destruction and upheaval. In the Book of Revelation, it is a recurring theme that symbolizes the final judgments of God and the Lamb, including the destruction of evil and the establishment of God's kingdom.
Old Testament:
Joel 2:1-11, 31:
This passage highlights the severity of the "day of the Lord," emphasizing its potential for both judgment and destruction. The sun and moon are to be turned into darkness, and all inhabitants of the land are to tremble before it.
Zechariah 10-14 and Malachi:
These books further develop the concept of the "day of the Lord," often portraying it as a time of both judgment and restoration for God's people.
Revelation:
Revelation 6:12-17:
This passage describes the events of the "great day of their wrath" as a time when those who call upon the mountains and rocks to hide them from God and the Lamb's wrath recognize the coming judgment.
Revelation 11:18:
This verse speaks of the "day of your wrath" as a time to judge the dead, reward the faithful, and destroy those who have caused destruction.
Revelation 21:1-5:
This chapter describes the establishment of God's kingdom, a new heavens and a new earth, after the "day of the Lord" and its associated judgments.
Revelation 22:2:
This verse describes the Tree of Life in the New Jerusalem, a symbol of the healing power of God's kingdom after the "day of the Lord".
Acts:
While the book of Acts does not explicitly use the phrase "great and terrible day of the Lord," it does emphasize the importance of repentance and faith in Jesus Christ as the way to escape the wrath of God. The sermon of Peter on Pentecost (Acts 2:14-41) is a good example of this, as it highlights the need to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins.

Google Search

 

[ReverendRV]

The concept of the "great and terrible day of the Lord" is prominent in both the Old Testament and Revelation. In the Old Testament, it refers to a time of divine judgment and wrath, often associated with destruction and upheaval. In the Book of Revelation, it is a recurring theme that symbolizes the final judgments of God and the Lamb, including the destruction of evil and the establishment of God's kingdom.
Old Testament:
Joel 2:1-11, 31:
This passage highlights the severity of the "day of the Lord," emphasizing its potential for both judgment and destruction. The sun and moon are to be turned into darkness, and all inhabitants of the land are to tremble before it.
Zechariah 10-14 and Malachi:
These books further develop the concept of the "day of the Lord," often portraying it as a time of both judgment and restoration for God's people.
Revelation:
Revelation 6:12-17:
This passage describes the events of the "great day of their wrath" as a time when those who call upon the mountains and rocks to hide them from God and the Lamb's wrath recognize the coming judgment.
Revelation 11:18:
This verse speaks of the "day of your wrath" as a time to judge the dead, reward the faithful, and destroy those who have caused destruction.
Revelation 21:1-5:
This chapter describes the establishment of God's kingdom, a new heavens and a new earth, after the "day of the Lord" and its associated judgments.
Revelation 22:2:
This verse describes the Tree of Life in the New Jerusalem, a symbol of the healing power of God's kingdom after the "day of the Lord".
Acts:
While the book of Acts does not explicitly use the phrase "great and terrible day of the Lord," it does emphasize the importance of repentance and faith in Jesus Christ as the way to escape the wrath of God. The sermon of Peter on Pentecost (Acts 2:14-41) is a good example of this, as it highlights the need to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins.

Google Search

The Wrath of Revelation is Transferred to Acts 2...

 

[Arial]

Yup.

Quoting from Got Questions [emphasis added]:

In the simplest possible terms, the biblical doctrine of penal substitution holds that Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross takes the place of the punishment we ought to suffer for our sins. [punishment transferred] As a result, God’s justice is satisfied, and those who accept Christ can be forgiven and reconciled to God.

Punishment and wrath are not the same thing. The wrath of God refers to the utter destruction of sin, sinners, the destroyer, and it is inflicted upon them. Not Jesus. Not his people who are in him.

The word penal means “related to punishment for offenses,” and substitution means “the act of a person taking the place of another.” [the definition of transfer] So, penal substitution is the act of a person taking the punishment for someone else’s offenses. [please explain how that is NOT a punishment transfer] In Christian theology, Jesus Christ is the Substitute, and the punishment He took (at the cross) was ours, [how was the punishment HE TOOK our PUNISHMENT if it was not transferred?] based on our sin (1 Peter 2:24).

I never said it wasn't a punishment transfer. I said it wasn't transferred wrath. Look at your own definition of "penal".

According to the doctrine of penal substitution, God’s perfect justice demands some form of atonement for sin. Humanity is depraved, to such an extent that we are spiritually dead and incapable of atoning for sin in any way (Ephesians 2:1). Penal substitution means Jesus’ death on the cross propitiated, or satisfied, God’s requirement for justice. God’s mercy allows Jesus to take the punishment we deserve [Jesus took our punishment, but it was not a transfer as defined by Merriam-Webster; then what was it?] for our sins. As a result, Jesus’ sacrifice serves as a substitute for anyone who accepts it. In a very direct sense, Jesus is exchanged for us as the recipient [yet another way of saying transfer] of sin’s penalty.

I don't disagree that Jesus took the punishment we deserve. I have been saying that all along. But the title of the OP is not "Transferred Punishment". It is "Transferred Wrath." So I suggest we deal with what we are dealing with. My whole starting premise was that the atonement cound be penal and substitutinary without it being transferred wrath. Your argument is against PSA of any kind. So what is your disagreement with the above that you quoted from PSA, and why is it wrong?

 

[ReverendRV]

The Wrath of Revelation is Transferred to Acts 2...

Judgment Days ~ by ReverendRV * June 15

Romans 2:5 ESV; But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

Theology sometimes presents us with a System to explain difficulties in the Bible. I often say that if you cannot find an answer for a possible mistake in the Bible, and no one is able to give you the answer; it doesn’t mean there’s nobody out there who can give an answer. There is a Principle in Theology known as ‘Dual Fulfilment’. Isaiah 7:14 is a dual fulfillment; a Promised son was born in the Old Testament; and in the New Testament. Jesus read from the Book of Isaiah; but stopped at a certain point, saying that in this day the reading was fulfilled in their hearing. The Reason Jesus stopped was because the next Verse he could have read, will be fulfilled on Judgment Day. ~ Another Verse also has a Double fulfillment; ‘The Sun will darken and the Moon turn blood red, before the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord comes’. In Ellicott’s Commentary, He says the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord is the Day Jesus Christ died. Saint Peter teaches us it was Christ’s Judgment Day. Saint Paul teaches this Judgment Day is coming again…

Why is there a Judgment Day? It is due to the Sin of the World. ~ What do you call people who Lie? Have you ever Lied? Then you belong in their Category. Do you not believe in God? Now you broke the First Commandment to believe in God. Have you ever thought of God as anything other than what the Bible says he is? Then you broke the Second Commandment not to make a god to suit yourself. Have you ever Hated someone? Jesus said this means you’ve Murdered them in your Heart. He also said, ‘Unbelievers, Murderers, Idolaters, and all Liars deserve to go to Hell’. Will you be innocent or guilty? Would you go to Heaven or Hell? ~ What you need is an Alternative Judgment Day where God’s Wrath can be revealed…

For God so Loved the world he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life! Jesus Christ was born of a Virgin, that he could be Sinless. He lived a life of maintaining his Sinlessness, and this is why God his Father was well pleased with him. He earned his way to Heaven by being Good, but volunteered to pay the Penalty for the Sins of every new Believer; by being a Substitute for them, on a Substitute Day of Judgment and Wrath. Jesus Christ died on the Cross by bleeding to death, was buried; but arose from the Grave Alive! He was seen by five Hundred people before he Ascended to Heaven. We’re Saved by the Grace of God through Faith in the Risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, without Works lest we boast. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as your lord God; and learn from him at a Gospel Church. ~ Are you not convinced that the Day of Christ’s Crucifixion is the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord’s Judgment? How could that Day be Great at all?? As Christians we celebrate the day every year; after all, why in the world do we call that Terrible day, ‘Good Friday’?

Isaiah 53:5 ESV; But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed.

 

[civic]

Isaiah 53:4-6

Notice carefully the wording in 53:4- WE considered him punished by God , stricken and afflicted.

It does not say God punished Him, stricken Him, afflicted Him.

There is a big difference between what it says and assuming what it says.

 

[atpollard]

Notice carefully the wording in 53:4- WE considered him punished by God , stricken and afflicted.

It does not say God punished Him, stricken Him, afflicted Him.

There is a big difference between what it says and assuming what it says.

I tried that … they are waiting to talk instead of listening.
L8r

 

[civic]

The Wrath of Revelation is Transferred to Acts 2...

Nope see below.

Notice in the lexicon the only reference to Christ and wrath is when He dishes out wrath and Scripture never references Him as the recipient of wrath.

Strong's Concordance
orgé: impulse, wrath
Original Word: ὀργή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: orgé
Phonetic Spelling: (or-gay')
Definition: impulse, wrath
Usage: anger, wrath, punishment, vengeance,indignation
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3709: ὀργή

ὀργή, ὀργῆς, ἡ (from ὀργάω to teem, denoting an internal motion, especially that of plants and fruits swelling with juice (Curtius, § 152); cf. Latinturgerealicui forirascialicui in Plautus Cas. 2, 5, 17; Most. 3, 2, 10; cf. German arg, Aerger), in Greek writings from Hesiod down "the natural disposition, temper, character; movement or agitation of soul, impulse, desire, any violent emotion," but especially (and chiefly in Attic) anger. In Biblical Greek anger, wrath, indignation (on the distinction between it and θυμός, see θυμός, 1): Ephesians 4:31; Colossians 3:8; James 1:19f; μετ' ὀργῆς, indignant (A. V. with anger), Mark 3:5; χωρίς ὀργῆς, 1 Timothy 2:8; angerexhibited in punishing, hence, used for the punishment itself (Demosthenes or. in middle § 43): of the punishments inflicted by magistrates, Romans 13:4; διά τήν ὀργήν, i. e. because disobedience is visited with punishment, Romans 13:5. The ὀργή attributed to God in the N. T. is that in God which stands opposed to man's disobedience, obduracy (especially in resisting the gospel) and sin, and manifests itself in punishing the same: John 3:36; Romans 1:18; Romans 4:15; Romans 9:22a; Hebrews 3:11; Hebrews 4:3; Revelation 14:10; Revelation 16:19; Revelation 19:15; absolutely, ἡ ὀργή, Romans 12:19 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 594 (553)); σκεύη ὀργῆς, vessels into which wrath will be poured (at the last day), explained by the addition κατηρτισμένα εἰς ἀπώλειαν, Romans 9:22b; ἡ μελλουσα ὀργή, which at the last day will be exhibited in penalties, Matthew 3:7; Luke 3:7 (others understand in these two passages the (national) judgments immediately impending to be referred to — at least primarily); also ἡ ὀργή ἡ ἐρχομένη, 1 Thessalonians 1:10; ἡμέρα ὀργῆς, the day on which the wrath of God will be made manifest in the punishment of the wicked (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 30, 2 a.), Romans 2:5; and ἡ ἡμέρα ἡ μεγάλη τῆς ὀργῆς αὐτοῦ (Revelation 6:17; see ἡμέρα, 3 at the end); ἔρχεται ἡ ὀργή τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐπί τινα, the wrath of God cometh upon one in the infliction of penalty (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 40, 2 a.), Ephesians 5:6; Colossians 3:6 (T Tr WH omit; L brackets ἐπί etc.); ἔφθασε (ἔφθακεν L text WH marginal reading) ἐπ' αὐτούς ἡ ὀργή, 1 Thessalonians 2:16; so ἡ ὀργή passes over into the notion of retribution and punishment, Luke 21:23; Rom. (Romans 2:8); ; Revelation 11:18; τέκνα ὀργῆς, men exposed to divine punishment, Ephesians 2:3; εἰς ὀργήν, unto wrath, i. e. to undergo punishment in misery, 1 Thessalonians 5:9. ὀργή is attributed to Christ also when he comes as Messianic judge, Revelation 6:16. (The Sept. for עֶבְרָה, wrath, outburst of anger, זַעַם, חֵמָה, חָרון, קֶצֶף, etc.; but chiefly for אַף.) Cf. Ferd. Weber, Vom Zorne Gottes. Erlang. 1862; Ritschl, Die christl. Lehre v. d. Rechtfertigung u. Versöhnung, ii., p. 118ff.

 

[Carbon]

Notice carefully the wording in 53:4- WE considered him punished by God , stricken and afflicted.

It does not say God punished Him, stricken Him, afflicted Him.

There is a big difference between what it says and assuming what it says.

This has already been addressed. That's obvious, also. And remember, if the rulers of this world knew what Christ was doing, they may never have crucified him.