Does, or can, our eschatological beliefs have an effect on our soteriology?

[TMSO]

A few thoughts to start with this.
In dispensationalism, God has two plans for to peoples.
One plan for Israel and another for the church.
I believe looking at the cross in the dipsy way could influence one’s beliefs on this. Are the sacrifices something that will, after Christ returns be re-established in the 1000-year earthly millennium?
Or, we’re these sacrifices types and shadows, which are fulfilled in Christ?

Since everyone here I spoke to says I am dispensational, then I will speak to that here. There is ONE PLAN, and there has always been only ONE PLAN of redemption. There is more than one part in that plan. Just as there is more than one part in the Bible. (Old Testament/New Testament). While there are two parts in the Bible, both parts speak to ONE TRUTH, not two different truths. The Gold of the Old Testament is the same God as in the New. It is not old God/new God.

The first part of the plan of redemption is the Old Testament. Israel. God's chosen people through whom the Messiah and salvation would come for the whole world. Not for just the Jews, not for just the church, for the whole world. And that is through the one plan which is the cross, that is Jesus death and resurrection. It is in that which we find salvation, and in that which we are baptized and partake of the table in remembrance.

The first part of the plan ends with not just Jesus' death and resurrection, but with the rejection of the Messiah by Israel. (Romans 11.) We now enter part 2, the times of the Gentiles. (Luke 21 : 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.)

Paul in Romans 11 says that the gospel and obedience came to the Gentiles because of the disobedience of Israel (rejection of the Messiah.) The Gentiles became "obedient" because they accepted the gospel and Jesus as Savior/Messiah. What about Israel at this time? Shut out. However, Paul says it is only partial. God has partially blinded/hardened Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in. The understanding I have of this means that as a group Israel is shut out at this time, however, individual Jews are being saved every day. It is only partial. What some people seem to want to deny is he last part, the until part. Until means that what comes before will come to an end at a certain time. In this case, the partial blindness/hardening will end when the fulness of the Gentiles has come in. That is, it is after God has brought in the Gentiles (Gentile elect), that He will turn back to Israel, and will finally deal with Israel. And thus all Israel will be saved. I have spoken to a lot of people who take issue with Israel being saved AT ALL. They don't even want to hear about a remnant. Any possibility of their being elect within the nation of Israel.

The full understanding is this. Israel rejects the Messiah as a group (not speaking to the individual), so the gospel passes on to the Gentiles as a group (not dealing with individuals), and they become obedient. While it is individual, the focus of the gospel is now the Gentiles, not Israel. Once the fulness of the Gentiles has come in, God will complete His plan of redemption with Israel, and all Israel will be saved, and all of the elect, Gentile and Jew, are saved. It is one plan of redemption that has moving parts. Paul ends by saying that God has bound all in disobedience that He may have mercy on all. The remnant of Israel, as a group, will be saved after God has finished dealing with the Gentile elect as a group. And the grand finale of redemption will occur at Jesus' second coming.

 

[Josheb]

Since everyone here I spoke to says I am dispensational, then I will speak to that here. There is ONE PLAN, and there has always been only ONE PLAN of redemption.

That's what all Dispensationalists say. Closer examination of the logical necessities of the theology, however, proves that claim is false.*

There is more than one part in that plan.

And that is what makes you Dispensationalist.

While it is individual, the focus of the gospel is now the Gentiles, not Israel.

That is what Dispensationalism teaches.

Once the fulness of the Gentiles has come in, God will complete His plan of redemption with Israel, and all Israel will be saved, and all of the elect, Gentile and Jew, are saved. It is one plan of redemption that has moving parts. Paul ends by saying that God has bound all in disobedience that He may have mercy on all. The remnant of Israel, as a group, will be saved after God has finished dealing with the Gentile elect as a group. And the grand finale of redemption will occur at Jesus' second coming.

The problem here is that Israel will first have to regain its land, rebuild another temple, reimplement the Law of Moses, reconstitute the Levitical priesthood, and reinstitute animal sacrifices before they come to salvation in Christ. Dispensationalists also teach and practice a literal reading of prophecy. Dispensationalism, however, does not practice literal reading with much consistency because it changes the normal meaning of scripture, like in the case of "this generation." In other words, every op you've authored in CCAM is decidedly Dispensational. Despite the eloquence of Post 41, both that post and the totality of your posts in this forum indicate you're Dispensationalist and simply have not yet realized it (possibly because all that Dispensationalism teaches is not yet adequately understood).

I'll put this as easily as I can to you: Only Dispensationalists think Israel is relevant to Christian eschatology. Everyone else, even the Historicists holds Israel irrelevant. The fact, in your own words, that you think there are "two parts" and one of them is specific to Israel's coming to salvation betrays your own claim of not being a Dispensationalist. Don't be shocked, and don't get angry (yet). Many of us here (like myself) were Dispensationalists and did not know it. It can be very aggravating to learn you've been lied to for many years and even worse to consider you believed them. You're in good company because many here can empathize and sympathized and help get you bac onto the solid ground of whole-scripture teaching and sound hermeneutics and exegesis.

One of the first best steps you could take toward not being a Dispensationalist is to disregard every word of teaching you've ever read/heard about Israel and the future. Just ditch it. Ask God to wipe it from your memory (and stop posting that perspective here if you don't want people to treat your words as Dispensationalist).











* I have broached that subject HERE, but I can briefly explain it here with a little detail if you like.
.

 

[Carbon]

If it's not salvation by faith in the person and atoning work of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sin, it can.

That would be more than mere misunderstanding, it would be heresy if someone were teaching against the gospel truth.

 

[Carbon]

The mistake is interpreting prophetic (Rev 1:3) riddles (Nu 12:6-8) literally, even when it contradicts authoritative NT apostolic teaching (Lk 10:16).

For the most part, they are obsessed with prophetic riddles over (NT) stated doctrine.

Well, they are obsessed with taking everything literal.

 

[Carbon]

Dispensations, or ages.

Dispensationalist try to put all of human history into ages, or different categories in an attempt to help the child of God to understand different things in these ages.

IMO they try to interpret the times by the news, not the bible.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

IMO they try to interpret the times by the news, not the bible.

Who me? And those like me?

Can you explain? I get my history from the word of God.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Well, they are obsessed with taking everything literal.

Not everything. Only prophecy

When Gid says a will happen we will know it fulfilled when a hapoens

If a has not happened yet it’s not fulfilled

 

[Carbon]

Sadly, once again, A lot of people think they know what we believe, But I think it is by what they have been taught we believe, not by actually talking to us.. (i know I have done this myself in the past_

Perhaps there may be a lot who think they know but really do not, not for me to say. But I'll tell you one thing for sure, I understand the system very well, I was a dispensationalist for many years. And I also have studied the Echatological views.

 

[Carbon]

Yet they claimed things which dispensationalism does not teach

Kind of hard to say you lived it then show you do not understand it

Like you said, some may not know it. But its also possible, respectfully, you don't understand it as good as you think you do.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Like you said, some may not know it. But its also possible, respectfully, you don't understand it as good as you think you do.

History prophecy and future events are my favorite subjects. I have studied them for decades now.

Like many things. There are different sects. I know one group that thinks isreal will return to be saved by the law in what they call the tribulation period. And also they were saved by the law in the it (some call this dual covenant)

They are not mainstream and everyone I personally know rejects that form of disoensationalism

Being retired military. I have met many people all over the country. I did Not meet
My first duel Covenant dispy (although I have heard of them) until I Jones Christianchat.com many years ago.

I have been told Schofield taught this. He does not. He believed as I do all
People of all ages are saved by grace not works.

 

[Carbon]

Since everyone here I spoke to says I am dispensational, then I will speak to that here. There is ONE PLAN, and there has always been only ONE PLAN of redemption. There is more than one part in that plan. Just as there is more than one part in the Bible. (Old Testament/New Testament). While there are two parts in the Bible, both parts speak to ONE TRUTH, not two different truths. The Gold of the Old Testament is the same God as in the New. It is not old God/new God.

The first part of the plan of redemption is the Old Testament. Israel. God's chosen people through whom the Messiah and salvation would come for the whole world. Not for just the Jews, not for just the church, for the whole world. And that is through the one plan which is the cross, that is Jesus death and resurrection. It is in that which we find salvation, and in that which we are baptized and partake of the table in remembrance.

The first part of the plan ends with not just Jesus' death and resurrection, but with the rejection of the Messiah by Israel. (Romans 11.) We now enter part 2, the times of the Gentiles. (Luke 21 : 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.)

Paul in Romans 11 says that the gospel and obedience came to the Gentiles because of the disobedience of Israel (rejection of the Messiah.) The Gentiles became "obedient" because they accepted the gospel and Jesus as Savior/Messiah. What about Israel at this time? Shut out. However, Paul says it is only partial. God has partially blinded/hardened Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in. The understanding I have of this means that as a group Israel is shut out at this time, however, individual Jews are being saved every day. It is only partial. What some people seem to want to deny is he last part, the until part. Until means that what comes before will come to an end at a certain time. In this case, the partial blindness/hardening will end when the fulness of the Gentiles has come in. That is, it is after God has brought in the Gentiles (Gentile elect), that He will turn back to Israel, and will finally deal with Israel. And thus all Israel will be saved. I have spoken to a lot of people who take issue with Israel being saved AT ALL. They don't even want to hear about a remnant. Any possibility of their being elect within the nation of Israel.

The full understanding is this. Israel rejects the Messiah as a group (not speaking to the individual), so the gospel passes on to the Gentiles as a group (not dealing with individuals), and they become obedient. While it is individual, the focus of the gospel is now the Gentiles, not Israel. Once the fulness of the Gentiles has come in, God will complete His plan of redemption with Israel, and all Israel will be saved, and all of the elect, Gentile and Jew, are saved. It is one plan of redemption that has moving parts. Paul ends by saying that God has bound all in disobedience that He may have mercy on all. The remnant of Israel, as a group, will be saved after God has finished dealing with the Gentile elect as a group. And the grand finale of redemption will occur at Jesus' second coming.

Thanks for explaining a bit about God's supposed 2 plans.

 

[Carbon]

That's what all Dispensationalists say. Closer examination of the logical necessities of the theology, however, proves that claim is false.*

Truly.

 

[Carbon]

Who me? And those like me?

No, I didn't say you.
And by your next sentence, I see you don't put yourself in the group that does.

Can you explain? I get my history from the word of God.

 

[Carbon]

I have been told Schofield taught this. He does not. He believed as I do all
People of all ages are saved by grace not works.

Is that how you would explain God's plan for the Jews? Saved by grace?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Since everyone here I spoke to says I am dispensational, then I will speak to that here. There is ONE PLAN, and there has always been only ONE PLAN of redemption.

Amen and amen

There is more than one part in that plan. Just as there is more than one part in the Bible. (Old Testament/New Testament). While there are two parts in the Bible, both parts speak to ONE TRUTH, not two different truths. The Gold of the Old Testament is the same God as in the New. It is not old God/new God.

Amen and amen

The first part of the plan of redemption is the Old Testament. Israel. God's chosen people through whom the Messiah and salvation would come for the whole world. Not for just the Jews, not for just the church, for the whole world. And that is through the one plan which is the cross, that is Jesus death and resurrection. It is in that which we find salvation, and in that which we are baptized and partake of the table in remembrance.

Again amen and amen

The first part of the plan ends with not just Jesus' death and resurrection, but with the rejection of the Messiah by Israel. (Romans 11.) We now enter part 2, the times of the Gentiles. (Luke 21 : 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.)

Here is where we separate. There is not a second plan. Jesus fulfilled the first plan and through the church all nations of the world are being blessed

Also remember the fall of Jerusalem and the scattering of Isreal was fortune as was the giving to the gentiles. (A people Not my own will be called My own)

Paul in Romans 11 says that the gospel and obedience came to the Gentiles because of the disobedience of Israel (rejection of the Messiah.) The Gentiles became "obedient" because they accepted the gospel and Jesus as Savior/Messiah.

Amen

What about Israel at this time? Shut out

As a nation yes. But I inow
Many a Jewish believer they are my brothers and sisters in Christ. Blinded in part. But not totally blind the remnant remains

However, Paul says it is only partial. God has partially blinded/hardened Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in. The understanding I have of this means that as a group Israel is shut out at this time, however, individual Jews are being saved every day. It is only partial.

Ok yes amen 100%

What some people seem to want to deny is he last part, the until part. Until means that what comes before will come to an end at a certain time.

Yes amen and we are given the time

In this case, the partial blindness/hardening will end when the fulness of the Gentiles has come in. That is, it is after God has brought in the Gentiles (Gentile elect), that He will turn back to Israel, and will finally deal with Israel. And thus all Israel will be saved. I have spoken to a lot of people who take issue with Israel being saved AT ALL. They don't even want to hear about a remnant. Any possibility of their being elect within the nation of Israel.

Yes I have heard this also. Sad

Other than this I think the disagreement may be what is the fullness of the gentile. She is this and what is it

The full understanding is this. Israel rejects the Messiah as a group (not speaking to the individual), so the gospel passes on to the Gentiles as a group (not dealing with individuals), and they become obedient. While it is individual, the focus of the gospel is now the Gentiles, not Israel.

Amen the nt church

Once the fulness of the Gentiles has come in, God will complete His plan of redemption with Israel, and all Israel will be saved, and all of the elect, Gentile and Jew, are saved. It is one plan of redemption that has moving parts. Paul ends by saying that God has bound all in disobedience that He may have mercy on all. The remnant of Israel, as a group, will be saved after God has finished dealing with the Gentile elect as a group. And the grand finale of redemption will occur at Jesus' second coming.

Yes. And then all isreal will be saved. And this world will have been spared an extinction event and all who endure (Jew and gentile) will witness Jesus return and praise God. Will
The unbelieving will be killed

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Is that how you would explain God's plan for the Jews? Saved by grace?

Everyone is saved by grace
Lev 26 gives gods requirement for God to remember his Promise They Must not only confess their sins but the sins of the fathers and confess Jesus punished them because of their sins

That will restore the nation but to be saved they get saved just like you and I did

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Truly.

But as you just saw. I a dispensationalist just proved the user you just agreed with wrong

I do not agree in fact no dispensationalist I know would disagree. And I have known hundreds if Not thousands in my years .

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

No, I didn't say you.
And by your next sentence, I see you don't put yourself in the group that does.

Thank you for Clarifying!

 

[Carbon]

Everyone is saved by grace

Oh absolutely! But some don't understand what grace is or is not.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Oh absolutely! But some don't understand what grace is or is not.

Yes

Some thin it is by being baptized in water or
Going to Church or confessing every sin you commit or taking communion or religious sacraments

They will beg Jesus and Jesus will say depart for I never knew you