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Transferred Wrath

I think we should talk about the Hypostatic Union, and how good an aim God is at pouring Wrath on just Jesus the son of Mary; without hitting the Logos, the Son of God...

I know, I know; the two are One. But the Chalcedonian Creed says the two are inseparable but are Unmixed. That sets us teetering on that eternal seesaw; somehow God can do it, no matter how fine tuned the Union is. I know, I know; the Communicatio Idiomatum means they share Natures and experiences, but I think this is the Hinge that the dispute; hinges on...

There's the fuse...
Jesus is a Divine Person with a human nature- this is the foundation of the H.U. He is the 2nd Person of the Trinity. It is God the Son who lived, suffered and died for our sins. No man can give a ransom to God for another person let alone the entire world.

Psalm 49:7- No man can possibly redeem his brother or pay his ransom to God.
 
Notice carefully the wording in 53:4- WE considered him punished by God , stricken and afflicted.

It does not say God punished Him, stricken Him, afflicted Him.

There is a big difference between what it says and assuming what it says.
In the culture of the day, a hanged man was cursed by God. (Deut 21:23; Gal 3:13) The onlookers thought Christ was suffering only what he deserved. But that was not the case was it? No, for it says: 4. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows. 5. But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. 9b. and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.10. Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief;when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.11. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted as righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.

That last btw, is a declaration of double imputation.
 
I think we should talk about the Hypostatic Union, and how good an aim God is at pouring Wrath on just Jesus the son of Mary; without hitting the Logos, the Son of God...

I know, I know; the two are One. But the Chalcedonian Creed says the two are inseparable but are Unmixed. That sets us teetering on that eternal seesaw; somehow God can do it, no matter how fine tuned the Union is. I know, I know; the Communicatio Idiomatum means they share Natures and experiences, but I think this is the Hinge that the dispute; hinges on...

There's the fuse...

"The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.” John 10:17-18

I don't think we will ever truly understand the mystery of Jesus laying down His Life and taking it back up again this side of seeing Him face to Face, when we will know as we are known.

It is perhaps we will grasp something more of the mystery then.

Until then, and even then, we can do nothing but fall down on our faces in worship. This is the praise of His Glory.

I will note that when Jesus cried out, He was actually forsaken, ie: without at the least the feeling of presence. And that is what wrath is, and the death Christ willingly gave of His own accord, making God the first cause, and God the instrument of Jesus' death and resurrection (secondary cause as the second person of the Trinity). It's God beginning to end.

Therefore we can only say God indeed poured out His wrath upon Christ upon the cross, and it's an amazing amazing mystery to which we owe everything.
 
"The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.” John 10:17-18

I don't think we will ever truly understand the mystery of Jesus laying down His Life and taking it back up again this side of seeing Him face to Face, when we will know as we are known.

It is perhaps we will grasp something more of the mystery then.

Until then, and even then, we can do nothing but fall down on our faces in worship. This is the praise of His Glory.

I will note that when Jesus cried out, He was actually forsaken, ie: without at the least the feeling of presence. And that is what wrath is, and the death Christ willingly gave of His own accord, making God the first cause, and God the instrument of Jesus' death and resurrection (secondary cause as the second person of the Trinity). It's God beginning to end.

Therefore we can only say God indeed poured out His wrath upon Christ upon the cross, and it's an amazing amazing mystery to which we owe everything.
That is not what wrath means and you have redefined the meaning. It means anger, retribution, vengeance, indignation.
 
That is not what wrath means and you have redefined the meaning. It means anger, retribution, vengeance, indignation.

Hello. There's a reason I was using Scripture to understand what God's wrath actually means - since it's not human emotion coming from God. It's only emotional and mixed with other things coming from man.

With God it's a pure thing that exists in as constant a state as every other attribute. It's not an emotion. it's a reaction to sin, that is not merely reacting. Wrath has a form that is consistent with what God is.

Had you went through and read all my posts you would have seen it.

God wrath, is death. The wages of sin are death.

"For in Him we live and move and have our being."

It is separation in total from God's provisions, care, and presence = death.
 
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Notice it’s never on the innocent , righteous , holy , believers but always on the wicked and rebellious sinners. It’s not once said to be upon Christ from the Father.
That is why opponents have decided to accuse PSA of saying it is transferred wrath poured out on Jesus, when it never says any such thing. It (the Bible) always speaks of Jesus taking the punishment for our iniquities on himself on the cross. Our sins and sinfulness are meeting the just decree of God against sin (death) in Christ, which is why they no longer exist as a condemnation and they can be justified before God. So we don't ever face the wrath of God.

Can it then be said that Jesus faced the wrath of God in our place? Technically, sure. What he went through certainly wasn't pleasant. It was no walk in the park. But to use the word "transferred", because it cannot be found in the Bible and therefore makes a challenge to those defending PSA that they cannot prove, is pure deliberate deception that some have bought into.

It is quite clear from OT to NT, that Jesus came as Son of God and Son of man, for the express purpose of being a righteous substitute for those God would give him. It is clear that in fulfilling that purpose he went to the cross, died the death of one cursed by God, but was not cursed by God; it is clear that in doing this our iniquities were laid on him and by his wounds we are healed. If we are going to be truthful, no one can imagine everything that Christ went through, or the depths of what he faced. What we do know is that he cried out "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" We do not know for sure what he meant. We know he was not forsaken by God but in some way that is what it was in that moment. Was it the agony he was in? Was it a word for us, that that is what we face if he did not do what he was doing? Was it about dying? Was it all of the above and more? We don't really know, though we often act like we do. What we do know is that he said it, and felt it, and they were not empty, meaningless words. And we know that it was followed by "It is finished." He had completed the work of redemption that he came to do.

So why shake a fist at God and try every which a way, to make the atonement, propitiation, substitution, be other than what God did?
 
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In the culture of the day, a hanged man was cursed by God. (Deut 21:23; Gal 3:13) The onlookers thought Christ was suffering only what he deserved. But that was not the case was it? No, for it says: 4. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows. 5. But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. 9b. and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.10. Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief;when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.11. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted as righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.

That last btw, is a declaration of double imputation.
Amen

Also, I notice that they don't readily go to the OT; they like to keep their argument in the NT as if that gives them an argument. I believe a fearful thing would be to bring them through the Tabernacle. The Tabernacle is a shadow of the Messiah, its sacrifices, services, and priesthood.

It shows how God hates sin, how his anger burned against it, and what it cost as the priests had to constantly sacrifice and burn animals. We can see God's wrath and how His anger had to be appeased, constantly by the priests. Until the Lamb of God came and put an end to sacrifices, expiated sin, and appeased God's anger.
Dan 9:24-27
 
That is why opponents have decided to accuse PSA of saying it is transferred wrath poured out on Jesus, when it never says any such thing.
You're absolutely right! It never says any such thing.
 
Amen

Also, I notice that they don't readily go to the OT; they like to keep their argument in the NT as if that gives them an argument. I believe a fearful thing would be to bring them through the Tabernacle. The Tabernacle is a shadow of the Messiah, its sacrifices, services, and priesthood.

It shows how God hates sin, how his anger burned against it, and what it cost as the priests had to constantly sacrifice and burn animals. We can see God's wrath and how His anger had to be appeased, constantly by the priests. Until the Lamb of God came and put an end to sacrifices, expiated sin, and appeased God's anger.
Dan 9:24-27
May I also say, the study of the Tabernacle is necessary for proper understanding of God's redemptive program, which is progressively revealed throughout Scripture. This study shows the holiness of God to us, sinful people. The study and knowledge of the Tabernacle is foundational to understanding Christ's fulfillment of God's redemptive program.
 
A good study of the Tabernacle can greatly help to understand more than half of the book of Hebrews, as well as other portions of the NT. Keeping in mind Jesus is the fulfillment.
 
Notice in the same Psalm 22 where Jesus quotes from why have you forsaken me it says the following.

The following scriptures affirm that Jesus' relationship with the Father on the cross was still there and not broken.

Psalm 22:24
For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help
.

Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

John 16:32
"A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me."

Hebrews 5:7
During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.
Not good civic, using scripture to support your theory. For example, here, such great expressions of faith we see, for example,
"Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last." After what Jesus has been going through, this is an amazing display of faith, is it not?

But you are changing the meaning so that it's all bout their relationship, not breaking.
 
At the altar, an innocent lamb bore the judgment of the guilty. Christ, the believer's lamb....... The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him, and *said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! John 1:29 & Revelation 13:8....... died on the altar of the cross to bear the judgment of God's wrath against sin on our behalf. The sacrifice being burnt on the altar as a sweet savor to God, typified Christ, who was offered up as "a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savor."
and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. Eph 5:2.
 
You're absolutely right! It never says any such thing.
The little trick is, if they say it like that, then they can ask a person to show them where the Bible says God's wrath is transferred to Jesus. And of course the Bible does not say that. Kind of like a Unitarian asking where the Bible says God is triune.

Cheap and deliberately deceptive method by whoever started it and pulled the wool over the eyes of some, with the deception.
 
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At the altar, an innocent lamb bore the judgment of the guilty. Christ, the believer's lamb....... The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him, and *said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! John 1:29 & Revelation 13:8....... died on the altar of the cross to bear the judgment of God's wrath against sin on our behalf. The sacrifice being burnt on the altar as a sweet savor to God, typified Christ, who was offered up as "a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savor."
and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. Eph 5:2.

It's just heart shattering isn't it? It heart shattering and beautiful and awesome all rolled up in a ball...
 
The little trick is, if they say it like that, then they can ask a person to show them where the Bible says God's wrath is transferred to Jesus. And of course the Bible does not say that. King of like a Unitarian asking where the Bible says God is triune.

Cheap and deliberately deceptive method by whoever started it and pulled the wool over the eyes of some, with the deception.
Yep!
 
Notice it’s never on the innocent , righteous , holy , believers but always on the wicked and rebellious sinners. It’s not once said to be upon Christ from the Father.

Thayers lexicon

ὀργή, ὀργῆς, ἡ (from ὀργάω to teem, denoting an internal motion, especially that of plants and fruits swelling with juice (Curtius, § 152); cf.

Latinturgerealicuiforirascialicui in Plautus Cas. 2, 5, 17; Most. 3, 2, 10; cf. German arg, Aerger), in Greek writings from Hesiod down "the natural disposition, temper, character; movement or agitation of soul, impulse, desire, any violent emotion," but especially (and chiefly in Attic) anger.

In Biblical Greek anger, wrath, indignation(on the distinction between it and θυμός, see θυμός, 1): Ephesians 4:31; Colossians 3:8; James 1:19f; μετ' ὀργῆς, indignant (A. V. with anger), Mark 3:5; χωρίς ὀργῆς, 1 Timothy 2:8; anger exhibited in punishing, hence, used for the punishment itself (Demosthenes or. in middle § 43): of the punishments inflicted by magistrates,

Romans 13:4; διά τήν ὀργήν, i. e. because disobedience is visited with punishment, Romans 13:5. The ὀργή attributed to God in the N. T. is that in God which stands opposed to man's disobedience, obduracy (especially in resisting the gospel) and sin, and manifests itself in punishing the same: John 3:36; Romans 1:18; Romans 4:15; Romans 9:22a; Hebrews 3:11; Hebrews 4:3; Revelation 14:10; Revelation 16:19; Revelation 19:15; absolutely, ἡ ὀργή, Romans 12:19 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 594 (553));

σκεύη ὀργῆς, vessels into which wrath will be poured (at the last day), explained by the addition κατηρτισμέναεἰς ἀπώλειαν, Romans 9:22b; ἡ μελλουσαὀργή, which at the last day will be exhibited in penalties, Matthew 3:7; Luke 3:7 (others understand in these two passages the (national) judgments immediately impending to be referred to — at least primarily); also ἡ ὀργή ἡἐρχομένη, 1 Thessalonians 1:10; ἡμέραὀργῆς, the day on which the wrath of God will be made manifest in the punishment of the wicked (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 30, 2 a.), Romans 2:5; and ἡ ἡμέρα ἡ μεγάλητῆς ὀργῆς αὐτοῦ (Revelation 6:17; see ἡμέρα, 3 at the end); ἔρχεται ἡ ὀργή τοῦΘεοῦ ἐπί τινα, the wrath of God cometh upon one in the infliction of penalty (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 40, 2 a.), Ephesians 5:6; Colossians 3:6 (T Tr WH omit; Lbrackets ἐπί etc.); ἔφθασε (ἔφθακεν L text WH marginal reading) ἐπ' αὐτούς ἡ ὀργή, 1 Thessalonians 2:16; so ἡ ὀργή passes over into the notion of retribution and punishment, Luke 21:23; Rom. (Romans 2:8); ; Revelation 11:18; τέκνα ὀργῆς, men exposed to divine punishment, Ephesians 2:3; εἰς ὀργήν, unto wrath, i. e. to undergo punishment in misery, 1 Thessalonians 5:9. ὀργή is attributed to Christ also when he comes as Messianic judge, Revelation 6:16. (The Sept. for עֶבְרָה, wrath, outburst of anger,
Truncated below to fit under 10,000 words
Notice " Gods Wrath " it doesn’t fall on Christ but Jesus protects believes from Gods wrath :)


The wrath of God is a fearsome and terrifying thing. Only those who have been covered by the blood of Christ, shed for us on the cross, can be assured that God’s wrath will never fall on them. “Since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through Him!” (Romans 5:9). Got?

hope this helps !!!
This kind of thinking seems to be more visible to me lately, from different people posting —to the point I'm beginning to wonder if *I'm* the common denominator :oops::D

And I'm still at a loss as to how to describe it. It is a wooden, maybe even superstitious, mechanical logic in hermeneutics, that takes a word and studies it as opposed to studying its meaning. —No, that's not quite it either. —...that studies a word and finds no direct connotation so concludes there is no connotation(?) :unsure: (By way of example of your thinking here: Arguing monergism/synergism, @Eternally-Grateful says that according to the definition given for synergism a synergist cannot be saved. No matter how I try, I can't get it through to him that what a person thinks is not what saves him; he agrees with me about that a person's thinking cannot save him, but still doesn't see how a synergist can be saved. I gave up.)

You say, "Notice " Gods Wrath " it doesn’t fall on Christ but Jesus protects believes from Gods wrath". In the passages you quote you don't see 'wrath' said to fall on Christ—therefore (in your mind) it doesn't fall on Christ. Yet you show nowhere that God's wrath has been mitigated or undone, but only diverted at best.

God's wrath and God's justice are almost synonymous along with his purity, infinity and omnipotence, and resulting in his grace—that is, all are actions within his works. None of it is set aside, but, rather, completed. He does not fail to completely undo the wages of the sin of the elect. The sin is seen no different just because the payer has been changed. The wages must be payed in full.
 
Notice carefully the wording in 53:4- WE considered him punished by God , stricken and afflicted.

It does not say God punished Him, stricken Him, afflicted Him.

There is a big difference between what it says and assuming what it says.

You're using "Esteemed" in vs. four, or in your case "considered", to define vs. 5-6, but vs. 5-6 are very clearly literal.

4 Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted.

5-6 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
 
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