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This is my body or represents my body?

TonyChanYT

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Matthew 26:

26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
isἐστιν (estin)
Verb - Present Indicative Active - 3rd Person
SingularStrong's 1510: I am, exist. The first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist.

Why is the verb to be used here?

The bread is not just a metaphor or a symbol of Christ's body. Jesus seemed to insist on its literal meaning. In what sense?

In the sense of typology and spiritual reality.

John 6:

31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”
This was the OT type that foreshadowed the true type in the NT.

32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”
35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
Jesus' body is the true type.

41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.”
It didn't make any sense to these Jews because they failed to see the typology and spiritual reality.

47 Truly, truly, I say to you,
i.e., Jesus insisted on the typology and spiritual reality

whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life.
the true type of bread is the bread of life

49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
The physical bread could not fulfill the spiritual life. On the other hand:

50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
Jesus' flesh fulfilled the typology and spiritual reality.

52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you,
again, Jesus insisted on the typology and spiritual reality

unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 Jesusd said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.
60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?”
Again, these people failed to see the typology and spiritual reality. Jesus tried to help his disciplines to understand better:

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all.
Focus on the spiritual reality, not the physical reality.

The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
The Communion ritualistically reflects this typology and spiritual reality. When taken properly, it feeds the soul and spirit.

Luke 22:

19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”
The bread represents Jesus' body. Further, it is his body in the sense of typology and spiritual reality.

See also

 
The bread is not just a metaphor or a symbol of Christ's body. Jesus seemed to insist on its literal meaning. In what sense?
I would offer bread represents. . . flesh .. . . . . . . . .blood represents Holy Spirit

A parable or picture of the Holy Spirit pouring out His Spirit life on dying flesh and blood in jeapordy of his own Spirit .
 
Matthew 26:


isἐστιν (estin)
Verb - Present Indicative Active - 3rd Person
SingularStrong's 1510: I am, exist. The first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist.

Why is the verb to be used here?
In Greek, the pronoun "this" must agree in gender to the noun it modifies. "This" (touto - neuter) and "bread" (arton - masculine) have different genders. Therefore, according to the grammar, Jesus was not referring to the bread when He said "this". He was referring to His own body (soma - neuter).

Augustine


Christ was carried in his own hands when, referring to his own body, he said, ‘This is my body’ [Matt. 26:26]. For he carried that body in his hands” (Explanations of the Psalms 33:1:10 [A.D. 405]).
 
In Greek, the pronoun "this" must agree in gender to the noun it modifies. "This" (touto - neuter) and "bread" (arton - masculine) have different genders. Therefore, according to the grammar, Jesus was not referring to the bread when He said "this". He was referring to His own body (soma - neuter).

Augustine


Christ was carried in his own hands when, referring to his own body, he said, ‘This is my body’ [Matt. 26:26]. For he carried that body in his hands” (Explanations of the Psalms 33:1:10 [A.D. 405]).

I would offer Christians are lovingly commanded to be careful how they hear what they hear, from "who they hear ".

I would offer Not 3500 and rising called patron saint gods .It is not saint against saint .

Peter our brother in the Lord learned that lesson in the hard way a negative example to us what not to do Satan is quick to snatch the living seed of the word by which men are born again.

Peter our blessed brother in the Lord Peter we rebuked the glory of the Father and forbid the Son of man Jesus from doing it (Mathew 16).

He was forgiven of his blasphemy against the Son of man, Jesus. Peter learned the lesson the hard way to not to puff up his own dying flesh as if he King of the world in false pride thinking he was the key and not the gospel, The work of the unseen Holy Father, Christ.

He eventually did learn not to venerate the temporal things seen above the unseen eternal things of God . .not seen

Christ the head informed Peter .do not venerate not the things that be of God, not seen eternal but those that be of dying mankind seen

I think Augustine is really dead . we have the same sola scriptural . The Christian foundation is the living abiding word of God, sola scriptura not the oral traditons of dying mankind. In that way Protestant's do not venerate the dead 3500 and rising patron saints as a source faith . As it seems the Catholic foundation is a legions of fathers .not seen

Bread represents the living word of God. .Christians ask for it daily. Its the food the disciples knew not .The food to both hear the word of the Father empowering dying making to perform it to his good pleasure
.
Bread is used in parables like John 6 or a companion parable to help aid in understanding the parable (drink n blood. Blood to repsent flesh to represent flesh or meat as food From our Holy Father he gives us it to strengthen u with His daily bread that we might know his living will and do it to His good pleasure. Not the pleasure's of the dying his flesh that returns to the field of clay from which it was formed by the Potter

Bethlehem literally meaning "house of bread ", or "house of food. "In reference to the meat or bread the disciples knew not of. Food hear or understand the things not seen using the dying things seen to show the power of our Holy Father

In a companion parable (drink blood) below Believers when right dividing can compare the spiritual things not seen. to the dying temporal dying things seen

I would offer. . David locked up in prison ,sort of like John the baptism in doubt. The father giving him a desire to trust as the gospel empowering David lifting up his spirit .

The Holy Spirit of Christ send three apostles . The word three throughout the bible is used in parables represent the end of the matter or no adding to or subtracting from it .

Flesh and blood men in jeapordy of there own spirit life . drawing living water from well the gate entering fellowship By the city of flesh, the breath of new life/

2 Samuel 23:14-17 4 And David was then in an hold, and the garrison of the Philistines was then in Bethlehem.And David longed, and said, Oh that one would give me drink of the water of the well of Bethlehem, which is by the gate!And the three mighty men brake through the host of the Philistines, and drew water out of the well of Bethlehem, that was by the gate, and took it, and brought it to David: nevertheless he would not drink thereof, but poured it out unto the Lord. And he said, Be it far from me, O Lord, that I should do this: is not this the blood of the men that went in jeopardy of their lives? therefore he would not drink it. These things did these three mighty men.


Metaphors' Bethlehem house of bread . . . .flesh . Well in city of of the living water spoken of in John words of spirit, that bring new spirt life also called the water of the word. Water represent the unseen Holy Spirit .
gate. . fellowship

Our Holy Father pouring our his Holy Spirit as if it was blood in jeapordy of his own Spirit life on dying flesh

A gospel picture or parable of the Father drawing his children to drink of the the the living water of new life as if it was blood as they enter the gate of fellowship

Blood and water are used together throughout the Bible to represent the life of the Holy Spirit .

The wedding supper in that way used to represent living work of the holy Spirt turning into the blood of grapes . John 2:2-4
 
I would offer Christians are lovingly commanded to be careful how they hear what they hear, from "who they hear ".
I would offer this....

Lk 10:16 Whoever listens to you listens to ME. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.
 
Augustine

Christ was carried in his own hands when, referring to his own body, he said, ‘This is my body’ [Matt. 26:26]. For he carried that body in his hands” (Explanations of the Psalms 33:1:10 [A.D. 405]).
What you quoted here is from Augustine’s first sermon. In his second sermon on that Psalms, he continued:

And he carried himself in his own hands: How was he carried in his own hands? Because, when he entrusted his own Body and Blood, he took into his hands that which the faithful are aware of; and he carried himself in a certain way when he said, “This is my Body.”​

Augustine’s use of “certain” most certainly opens the door for a metaphorical understanding of "the carrying". Jesus literally carried bread which was his body in a certain (metaphorical) way. Before you try to enlist Augustine to assert a real bodily presence in the Eucharist, you should note:

F. van der Meer, in his renowned study Augustine the Bishop, writes (about Augustine's view):

It is perfectly true, however, that there is nowhere any indication of any awareness of the Real Presence of Christ in the Sacrament, or that he thought very much about this subject or made it the object of devotion; that was alien to the people of that age – at any rate in the West.

….and of course, van der Meer is not alone in that assessment.
 
I would offer this....

Lk 10:16 Whoever listens to you listens to ME. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.

Thanks

What is that supposed to mean. . . brother ? What do you think are you offering by quoting that verse ?

Christ works in dying mankind to both will and empower them to do the will of the Father ???

I think prophets are sent as messenger with the word from the invisible head.

Rejecting the gospel is rejecting the Holy Father, the invisible head

If they reject the messenger in effect they are rejecting the authority of the words of eternal God

Peter our brother in the lord in Mathew 16 fell for that wile of lie of the devil. Hook ,line and sinker

Peter acting as false prophet sent by Satan,

Spoken by our brother in the Lord Peter acting as one the antichrists, another teaching authroity other than all things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura )

Peters false prophecy. I rebuke you Holy Father ther invisible in heaven. . this shall not be , I am the gospel key .Not you living eternal God.

Peter in effect said if you reject my words(his) you reject the eternal life.

The lesson crystal clear. Venerate eternal God alone not seen. Not dying temporal mankind seen..

Mathew 16:22-23 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou

Its strange? ? ? Why would anyone desire to get under the authroity of dying mankind ands believe it A OK To rebuke God ??

What's the hope ???? Is it Peter our brother in the Lord the serial denier (three times) Did he revealed the eternal word of God by his own dying flesh and blood . Even though the Father made it clear he is the key that the gates of hell could never prevail against ,and not Peter dying flesh and blood .Are those verses I offered(Mathew 16:22-23) even in the Cathodic Bible ?

I would think even the born again Sunday school believers can see flesh and blood Peter is not Eternal God, the invisible head.

Mathew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed (God not seen blessing Peter seen) art thou, Simon Barjona: for (your own ) flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Will you today honor the things of the invisible head today (Holy Father)

Or continue to trust Peter who died and over two thousand years ago and corrupter dying flesh and blood return to the lineless spirit less dirt. And not the savor after things that be of Enteral Father, God, but those that be of men.?

Two choices ?( A) dying temporal mankind (B) eternal God???

The very valuable 20/20 prescription needed to "rightly divide". Great study tool he has given so we van seek His approval as lovingly commanded in Tim 2:15( Don't leave earth without it

The gospel key. .seek the eternal things of God not the temporal dying ,mankind

I t infallibly reads . . .

2 Corinthian 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

I would think commit 2 Corinthian 4:18 to memory..

.
 
What you quoted here is from Augustine’s first sermon. In his second sermon on that Psalms, he continued:

And he carried himself in his own hands: How was he carried in his own hands? Because, when he entrusted his own Body and Blood, he took into his hands that which the faithful are aware of; and he carried himself in a certain way when he said, “This is my Body.”​

Augustine’s use of “certain” most certainly opens the door for a metaphorical understanding of "the carrying". Jesus literally carried bread which was his body in a certain (metaphorical) way. Before you try to enlist Augustine to assert a real bodily presence in the Eucharist, you should note:

F. van der Meer, in his renowned study Augustine the Bishop, writes (about Augustine's view):

It is perfectly true, however, that there is nowhere any indication of any awareness of the Real Presence of Christ in the Sacrament, or that he thought very much about this subject or made it the object of devotion; that was alien to the people of that age – at any rate in the West.

….and of course, van der Meer is not alone in that assessment.
Augustine

I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord's table, which you now look upon and of which you last night were made participants. You ought to know that you have received what you are going to receive, and what you ought to receive daily. That bread which you see on the altar having been sanctified by the word of God is the body of Christ, That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ (Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).

What you see is the bread and the chalice, that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith, yet faith does not desire instruction (ibid. 272).
 
Augustine

I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord's table, which you now look upon and of which you last night were made participants. You ought to know that you have received what you are going to receive, and what you ought to receive daily. That bread which you see on the altar having been sanctified by the word of God is the body of Christ, That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ (Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).

What you see is the bread and the chalice, that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith, yet faith does not desire instruction (ibid. 272).
When looking at this matter I believe that one should keep in mind that the ancients had a high regard for symbols in that they believed that symbols shared in the reality of the thing that they symbolized. (note: not became in reality the thing that they symbolized, but shared in the reality of the thing that they symbolized.) See: Eucharist: Symbol of Transformation by Crockett, William R. for a scholarly work on this point. It is easy to list a number of early church fathers that spoke very realistically about the bread being the body, however, ancients who did not believe in a substantive presence would still speak realistically (and also symbolically) about the elements because of their belief that the symbols shared in the reality of the thing that they symbolized. Starting in the fourth century some of the early church fathers believed in a real bodily presence, but before that it was mainly a neo-platonic belief in a real symbolic presence.

Augustine, in On Christian Doctrine tried to get his students to better understand symbols and Christ’s commands. Regarding the understanding of symbols, he wrote:

such, for example, as the Sacrament of baptism, and the celebration of the body and blood of the Lord. And as soon as any one looks upon these observances he knows to what they refer, and so reveres them not in carnal bondage, but in spiritual freedom. (two Christian signs are baptism and the Eucharist. Christians know want they point to, and so in honoring them are actually honoring God)

Now, as to follow the letter, and to take signs for the things that are signified by them, is a mark of weakness and bondage; so to interpret signs wrongly is the result of being misled by error. (to view the sign/bread as the body of Christ {the thing that it signifies} is a mark of weakness and bondage...it is error)​
On Christian Doctrine Bk 3 Ch 9 with my added paraphrasing/comments being in brackets

Regarding the understanding of commands he wrote:

If the sentence is one of command, either forbidding a crime or vice, or enjoining an act of prudence or benevolence, it is not figurative. If, however, it seems to enjoin a crime or vice, or to forbid an act of prudence or benevolence, it is figurative. “Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man,” says Christ, “and drink His blood, ye have no life in you.” This seems to enjoin a crime or a vice; it is therefore a figure, enjoining that we should have a share in the sufferings of our Lord, and that we should retain a sweet and profitable memory of the fact that His flesh was wounded and crucified for us.​
(Book 3, Chap 16 of On Christian Doctrine)
 
Augustine

I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord's table, which you now look upon and of which you last night were made participants. You ought to know that you have received what you are going to receive, and what you ought to receive daily. That bread which you see on the altar having been sanctified by the word of God is the body of Christ, That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ (Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).

What you see is the bread and the chalice, that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith, yet faith does not desire instruction (ibid. 272).
I note that you have quoted a few sentences from Augustine’s sermons 227 and 272. I will look more deeply at sermon 272. That sermon is a favorite one of Catholics as they typically rip a sentence out of the first paragraph, assume that sentence must be understood literally, disregard the rest of the sermon and declare their view proven. That sentence is:

What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that THE BREAD IS THE BODY OF CHRIST AND THE CHALICE [WINE] THE BLOOD OF CHRIST." (Sermon 272)

The sermon’s two paragraphs read:

One thing is seen, another is to be understood. What you can see on the altar, you also saw last night; but what it was, what it meant, of what great reality it contained the sacrament, you had not yet heard. So what you can see, then, is bread and a cup; that's what even your eyes tell you; but as for what your faith asks to be instructed about, the bread is the body of Christ, the cup the blood of Christ. It took no time to say that indeed, and that, perhaps, may be enough for faith; but faith desires instruction. The prophet says, you see, Unless you believe, you shall not understand (Is 7:9). I mean, you can now say to me, “You've bidden us believe; now explain, so that we may understand.” Some such thought as this, after all, may cross somebody's mind: “We know where our Lord Jesus Christ took flesh from; from the Virgin Mary. He was suckled as a baby, was reared, grew up, came to man's estate, suffered persecution from the Jews, was hung on the tree, was slain on the tree, was taken down from the tree, was buried; rose again on the third day, on the day he wished ascended into heaven. That's where he lifted his body up to; that's where he's going to come from to judge the living and the dead; that's where he is now, seated on the Father's right. How can bread be his body? And the cup, or what the cup contains, how can it be his blood?” The reason these things, brothers and sisters, are called sacraments is that in them one thing is seen, another is to be understood. What can be seen has a bodily appearance, what is to be understood provides spiritual fruit. So if you want to understand the body of Christ, listen to the apostle telling the faithful, You, though, are the body of Christ and its members (1 Cor 12:27). So if it's you that are the body of Christ and its members, it's the mystery meaning you that has been placed on the Lord's table; what you receive is the mystery that means you. It is to what you are that you reply Amen, and by so replying you express your assent. What you hear, you see, is The body of Christ, and you answer, Amen. So be a member of the body of Christ, in order to make that Amen true.

So why in bread? Let's not bring anything of our own to bear here, let's go on listening to the apostle himself, who said, when speaking of this sacrament, One bread, one body, we being many are (1 Cor 10:17). Understand and rejoice. Unity, truth, piety, love. One bread; what is this one bread? The one body which we, being many, are. Remember that bread is not made from one grain, but from many. When you were being exorcised, it's as though you were being ground. When you were baptized it's as though you were mixed into dough. When you received the fire of the Holy Spirit, it's as though you were baked. Be what you can see, and receive what you are. That's what the apostle said about the bread. He has already shown clearly enough what we should understand about the cup, even if it wasn't said. After all, just as many grains are mixed into one loaf in order to produce the visible appearance of bread, as though what holy scripture says about the faithful were happening: They had one soul and one heart in God (Acts 4:32); so too with the wine. Brothers and sisters, just remind yourselves what wine is made from; many grapes hang in the bunch, but the juice of the grapes is poured together in one vessel. That too is how the Lord Christ signified us, how he wished us to belong to him, how he consecrated the sacrament of our peace and unity on his table. Any who receive the sacrament of unity, and do not hold the bond of peace, do not receive the sacrament for their benefit, but a testimony against themselves. Turning to the Lord, God the Father almighty, with pure hearts let us give him sincere and abundant thanks, as much as we can in our littleness; beseeching him in his singular kindness with our whole soul, graciously to hearken to our prayers in his good pleasure; also by his power to drive out the enemy from our actions and thoughts, to increase our faith, to guide our minds, to grant us spiritual thoughts, and to lead us finally to his bliss; through Jesus Christ his Son. Amen.​

Here, with slight editing is how I would describe my understanding of Augustine’s view as demonstrated by sermon 272:

In the first paragraph of the Sermon, Augustine said:

1) the bread IS the body of Christ

2) it’s you (the believers) that ARE the body of Christ

3) it’s you (the believers) that have BEEN placed on the Lord’s table

If one can understand that in saying #2 and #3 that Augustine could have been speaking in a purely figurative manner, then one should be consistent and understand that in saying #1 Augustine could have been speaking in a purely figurative manner. IMHO Augustine is obviously speaking in a figurative manner at #2 and #3 and so a figurative understanding at #1 is also possible.

My complaint is that RCs produce the beginning of this sermon as prima facie evidence of Augustine’s belief in the RC’s doctrine of a Real Bodily Presence as if it that settles the matter.… The balance of the sermon is ignored and it is the balance of the sermon that eliminates (or at least calls into question) the prima facie case.

Further, Augustine first noted that one thing is seen and another is understood. He then asks, “How can bread be his body?” His answer to that question (which continues to the second paragraph) is not one which points to a bodily presence. Absolutely no transformation of substance is suggested in answer to the “HOW?”. I understand his answer to be:

1) Just as Paul tells the believers at Corinth that they are the body of Christ, Augustine’s congregation are also the body of Christ

2) If one accepts this understanding, then by partaking in the Eucharist one is partaking in the sacrament of peace and unity with one’s fellow believers (who are the members of Christ’s body)

3) A loaf of bread is suitable for this understanding because it is made from many grains (and many believers are united in the body), the grains are ground (believers are exorcised), mixed into dough (believers are baptized) and baked (believers receive the fire of the Holy Spirit).

4) “Be what you can see, and receive what you are. That's what the apostle said about the bread.” This is how Augustine concludes his remarks on the loaf of bread.

In other words, Augustine (IMHO) says that the bread is Christ’s body b/c the bread is also a symbol for the church and the church is, in a figurative sense, the body of Christ. The bread is well suited to be that symbol. Recognize what the bread signifies and participate in the Eucharist so as to enjoy the unity symbolized by the bread. As you can see, I do not see sermon 272 as evidence of Augustine’s belief in a real bodily presence. Instead, I believe sermon 272 is better evidence of Augustine’s figurative understanding.

Sermon 227 is very similar to Sermon 272 and when examined gives the same understanding as I have detailed above. For example, in Sermon 227 one will find:

…It was by means of these things that the Lord Christ wished to present us with his body and blood, which he shed for our sake for the forgiveness of sins. If you receive them well, you are yourselves what you receive. You see, the apostle says, We, being many, are one loaf, one body (1 Cor 10:17). That's how he explained the sacrament of the Lord's table; one loaf, one body, is what we all are, many though we be…..Then, after the consecration of the sacrifice of God, because he wanted us to be ourselves his sacrifice,…

Look, it's received, it's eaten, it's consumed. Is the body of Christ consumed, is the Church of Christ consumed, are the members of Christ consumed? Perish the thought!​

So again it is the church that is the body on the altar….and Christ’s body isn’t actually consumed any more than the Church is actually consumed during the Eucharist.
 
When looking at this matter I believe that one should keep in mind that the ancients had a high regard for symbols in that they believed that symbols shared in the reality of the thing that they symbolized. (note: not became in reality the thing that they symbolized, but shared in the reality of the thing that they symbolized.) See: Eucharist: Symbol of Transformation by Crockett, William R. for a scholarly work on this point. It is easy to list a number of early church fathers that spoke very realistically about the bread being the body, however, ancients who did not believe in a substantive presence would still speak realistically (and also symbolically) about the elements because of their belief that the symbols shared in the reality of the thing that they symbolized. Starting in the fourth century some of the early church fathers believed in a real bodily presence, but before that it was mainly a neo-platonic belief in a real symbolic presence.

Augustine, in On Christian Doctrine tried to get his students to better understand symbols and Christ’s commands. Regarding the understanding of symbols, he wrote:

such, for example, as the Sacrament of baptism, and the celebration of the body and blood of the Lord. And as soon as any one looks upon these observances he knows to what they refer, and so reveres them not in carnal bondage, but in spiritual freedom. (two Christian signs are baptism and the Eucharist. Christians know want they point to, and so in honoring them are actually honoring God)​
Now, as to follow the letter, and to take signs for the things that are signified by them, is a mark of weakness and bondage; so to interpret signs wrongly is the result of being misled by error. (to view the sign/bread as the body of Christ {the thing that it signifies} is a mark of weakness and bondage...it is error)​
On Christian Doctrine Bk 3 Ch 9 with my added paraphrasing/comments being in brackets

Regarding the understanding of commands he wrote:

If the sentence is one of command, either forbidding a crime or vice, or enjoining an act of prudence or benevolence, it is not figurative. If, however, it seems to enjoin a crime or vice, or to forbid an act of prudence or benevolence, it is figurative. “Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man,” says Christ, “and drink His blood, ye have no life in you.” This seems to enjoin a crime or a vice; it is therefore a figure, enjoining that we should have a share in the sufferings of our Lord, and that we should retain a sweet and profitable memory of the fact that His flesh was wounded and crucified for us.​
(Book 3, Chap 16 of On Christian Doctrine)
Do you need an earlier example?

Cyril of Jerusalem

The bread and the wine of the Eucharist before the holy invocation of the adorable Trinity were simple bread and wine, but the invocation having been made, the bread becomes the body of Christ and the wine the blood of Christ (Catechetical Lectures 19:7 [A.D. 350]).
 
Even earlier?

Irenaeus

He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood (from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported) how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life — flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord and is in fact a member of him? (Against Heresies 5:2 [A.D. 189]).
 
Do you need an earlier example?

Cyril of Jerusalem

The bread and the wine of the Eucharist before the holy invocation of the adorable Trinity were simple bread and wine, but the invocation having been made, the bread becomes the body of Christ and the wine the blood of Christ (Catechetical Lectures 19:7 [A.D. 350]).
Kilmartin (in the Eucharist in the West) identifies the 4th Century Antiochean school as the source of the real bodily presence. Kilmartin, Van der Meer and Wills (all experts in regard to Augustine) all deny that Augustine held to a real bodily presence. Kilmartin also indicates that Ambrose adopted the Antiochean school's position and put forward the concept of a real bodily presence in the Western empire.

As such, your earlier example doesn't really help in understanding Augustine's view.
 
Even earlier?

Irenaeus

He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood (from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported) how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life — flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord and is in fact a member of him? (Against Heresies 5:2 [A.D. 189]).
So...is this anything more that a Platonistic/ancient understanding of symbols whereby the symbols share in the reality of the thing that is symbolized? Again, realistic wording does not equal a belief in an actual bodily presence
 
Kilmartin (in the Eucharist in the West) identifies the 4th Century Antiochean school as the source of the real bodily presence. Kilmartin, Van der Meer and Wills (all experts in regard to Augustine) all deny that Augustine held to a real bodily presence. Kilmartin also indicates that Ambrose adopted the Antiochean school's position and put forward the concept of a real bodily presence in the Western empire.

As such, your earlier example doesn't really help in understanding Augustine's view.
Augustine was a Catholic Bishop. Even earlier....

Ignatius of Antioch

Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1 [A.D. 110]).

. . . and are now ready to obey your bishop and clergy with undivided minds and to share in the one common breaking of bread – the medicine of immortality, and the sovereign remedy by which we escape death and live in Jesus Christ for evermore (Letter to the Ephesians 20 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr

We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these, but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).
 
So...is this anything more that a Platonistic/ancient understanding of symbols whereby the symbols share in the reality of the thing that is symbolized? Again, realistic wording does not equal a belief in an actual bodily presence
What would Christ have to say for you to believe? Was 'This is my body' not enough for you?
 
What would Christ have to say for you to believe? Was 'This is my body' not enough for you?
Thanks for the question.

Since you haven’t offered any objection, I trust that I am correct in my assumption that you hold to a traditional Catholic view….and I will continue to answer on that basis.

Given the context of the last supper: the fact that they were in the middle of a meal where the elements of the meal act as symbols of the Passover event it would seem that a symbolic understanding of "Take, eat; this is my body" would be the common sense approach for the disciples to take….especially when they can see that no change whatsoever (to the bread) has occurred. At that time there was absolutely no context or precedent for a person holding (what still looks like) a piece of bread and saying "Take, eat; this is my body" and meaning that a transformation of substances had occurred whilst the accidents remained unchanged. Such an idea was foreign to Greek philosophy and even more foreign to the Jewish understanding of reality. As such, Jesus should have addressed the “How” of “How is the bread my body?” Transubstantiation would have cried out for an explanation….whereas symbolism would have been the obvious understanding. In the history of existence can you think of anything else that is said to have its existence through transubstantiation? I can’t. The only thing that seems close is today, the woke left seems to think that a male can simply declare that he “is a woman” and with that, the person sheds any substance of man and becomes in substance a woman.

Augustine saw the need to address the “How?” and his answer focuses on how bread and wine are good symbols…..and he says nothing to suggest that he understood that a change of substance occurred. Further, in none of your quotes form Irenaeus, Ignatius or Martyr is the question of “How?” addressed. Regarding Ignatius, in Romans 7:3 Ignatius says Christ's blood = incorruptible love? Not exactly literal....which isn't unusual at all. Ignatius tends to stray from the literal which is why you can't be sure that when he said that the "Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ" that he was talking about a real bodily presence. At that point he is talking about the Docetists. When Ignatius states that the Eucharist is the flesh, he could mean that the Eucharist is the flesh a)literally, b)symbolically, c)sacramentally, d)representatively, or e)mysteriously etc. The Docetists seemed to deny that Christ came in the flesh. As such, they would not confess that the Eucharist was literally the flesh of Christ b/c no such flesh existed. Likewise, they would not confess that the Eucharist was symbolically the flesh of Christ b/c no such flesh existed. In fact, they would not confess that the Eucharist was the flesh of Christ in any way, shape or form b/c (they believed that) no such flesh existed. Until an early church father explained the “HOW?” you can’t be sure what he believed unless he wrote enough about the Eucharist such that the “How?” can be pieced together….and Ignatius, Irenaeus and Martyr didn’t write nearly enough on that….though given their times and locations they were likely Platonistic in their understanding of a thing’s existence.

Before you jump to the “is means is” argument let me ask: Why should we take the “is” of “this is my body” literally and not do the same for the “is” in the following verses:

"For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother.” Matt 12:50

“For whoever does the will of God, he is My brother and sister and mother." Mark 3:35

Why shouldn’t I (except for a tendency to apply common sense) conclude that the substance of Mary and the other members of Christ’s family are miraculously present behind/under the accidents of any disciple’s body…it surely can’t be b/c God wouldn’t have the ability to make such a thing happen. I will also be interested to see what is said when you get to Luke where the cup is the new covenant.

So, in short, Jesus should have used a sentence or two to introduce the concept of transubstantiation….instead of it being invented by pious imagination centuries later.
 
Thanks for the question.
You're welcome
Since you haven’t offered any objection, I trust that I am correct in my assumption that you hold to a traditional Catholic view
I am pre-denominational.... Catholic
Given the context of the last supper: the fact that they were in the middle of a meal where the elements of the meal act as symbols of the Passover event it would seem that a symbolic understanding of "Take, eat; this is my body" would be the common sense approach for the disciples to take….especially when they can see that no change whatsoever (to the bread) has occurred. At that time there was absolutely no context or precedent for a person holding (what still looks like) a piece of bread and saying "Take, eat; this is my body" and meaning that a transformation of substances had occurred whilst the accidents remained unchanged. Such an idea was foreign to Greek philosophy and even more foreign to the Jewish understanding of reality. As such, Jesus should have addressed the “How” of “How is the bread my body?”
and yet Christ did not even finish the last supper
Ignatius, Irenaeus and Martyr didn’t write nearly enough on that
What part of post 16 would make you question what Ignatius and Martyr are saying?
So, in short, Jesus should have used a sentence or two to introduce the concept of transubstantiation….instead of it being invented by pious imagination centuries later.
In John's Gospel we see pretty strong language though....

unless you eat the flesh
my flesh is true food
whoever eats my flesh

Also, Christ doubled down a few times, including the words changing from phago [eating] to trogo [to chew on; gnaw on]
 
am pre-denominational.... Catholic
What is that .

A denomination is tribe or family .Whenever two or three gather together under the authority of His living word Emanuel is there working in and with them is . Many denominations like the stars of he sky
 
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