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The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

Christs death accomplished/effected both Justification and Reconciliation for them He died for, His Elect Rom 5:9-11

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement/reconciliation. 3
 
Yes, I did quote Post 2, but my question has to do with something highlighted in Post 1, the op (opening post).

I've changed the highlighting to draw attention to the point of my inquiry.

Do you think John 12:32 means all men are drawn to Jesus salvifically?

Post 2 does not answer my question. Neither does Post 58.



Do you think John 12:32 means all men are drawn to Jesus salvifically?
I already answered that in the op. So Im not answering it again, its crystal clear what I believe about Jn 12:32 in the OP, so either accept it or move right along.
 
I already answered that in the op. So Im not answering it again, its crystal clear what I believe about Jn 12:32 in the OP, so either accept it or move right along.
Or post on the plusses and minuses in that answer.

All people are drawn to Jesus, but they are not all drawn to him salvifically. Some are drawn in condemnation. The exact same cross that saves some, condemns others. When he spoke of his dying as a seed that produced much fruit those who conspired to murder him were not that fruit. This op specifies "the saving results of the death of Christ," and it would have been nice if we could have discussed that saving death in its inextricable context of the deadly results of the cross for those who do not believe, but you refused to have that conversation so I will proceed without you.

Jesus started out his earthly ministry teaching, "Don't judge, or you'll be judged," (Matthew 7:1) and later stated he judged no one but even if he did so he would do so with the witness of his Father and the Holy Spirit (John 8:15). He did not come to judge the world but the world and everyone in it had already been condemned because they hadn't believed in his name (John 3:16-21, 12:47). All of this was taught within the context of what the author of Hebrews wrote, "...it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment..." (Heb. 9:27). Paul put it this way,

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.

Jesus had communicated the same, eschatologically when he said,

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then he will repay each one according to what he has done.

Of course, that could only be said and have meaning after he left... and then came again. That would not happen absent Jesus first being lifted up. Many days later Jesus would say,

Matthew 25:31-33
"....when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him; and he will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and he will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left."

Some Christians are taught this "throne" is a physical chair and his kingdom an earthly monarchy but they do so in contraction to Jesus explicitly stating his kingdom is not of this world, it was present when he walked the earth in a fleshly body, and his thrown is the resurrection (Acts 2:30) not a chair made of wood or stone in a temple or palace made by human hands (Act 7:48, 17:24).

Jesus made a comparison similar to that of the sheep and goats using wheat and weeds.

Matthew 13:24-30
Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?' And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?' But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, 'First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.'"

Both sheep and goats, wheat and weeds grow among one another and the focal point through which all must proceed is the cross. Because Jesus surrendered his life on Calvary, he is Lord, Savior, and Judge of all. John 12 was not the first time Jesus had spoken of his being "lifted up." At the beginning of John's gospel he said,

John 3:14-15
As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

What happens to those who do not believe?

Numbers 21:6-9
The LORD sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. So the people came to Moses and said, "We have sinned, because we have spoken against the LORD and you; intercede with the LORD, that He may remove the serpents from us." And Moses interceded for the people. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live." And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.

Anyone not looking at the serpent died.

John 3:18
He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jesus made that connection, not me.

Luke reports Peter preaching,

Acts 10:38-42
You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how he went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him. We are witnesses of all the things he did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put him to death by hanging him on a cross. God raised him up on the third day and granted that he become visible, not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with him after he arose from the dead. And he ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the one who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.

The death of Christ also results in death for many.

Romans 2:12-16
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

.
 
Post 63 is important because we do not preach gospel-lite. Every person who has ever lived has lived in a state of condemnation simply because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son, but NOW there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8:1). The road through Calvary is strewn with death and the dead. It is a small gate, and few are those who enter it. Broad is the road to destruction, and many are there that enter it. God will not be mocked; whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. If he sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap destruction, but those who sow to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life (Gal. 6:7-8).

Anyone who does not understand the shrieks of the burning will be heard by those whose arms and voices raised in worship has not fully understood.

Exodus 17:8-13
Then Amalek came and fought against Israel at Rephidim. So Moses said to Joshua, "Choose men for us and go out, fight against Amalek. Tomorrow I will station myself on the top of the hill with the staff of God in my hand." Joshua did as Moses told him, and fought against Amalek; and Moses, Aaron, and Hur went up to the top of the hill. So it came about when Moses held his hand up, that Israel prevailed, and when he let his hand down, Amalek prevailed. But Moses' hands were heavy. Then they took a stone and put it under him, and he sat on it; and Aaron and Hur supported his hands, one on one side and one on the other. Thus, his hands were steady until the sun set. So Joshua overwhelmed Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword.

In the end the field was strewn with dead bodies, and it was through them the victorious walked home, thanking and praising God for the salvation and victory He had provided (knowing that in and of themselves they were no better than the Amalekites).


The saving results of Christ.


Do you think John 12:32 means all men are drawn to Jesus salvifically? Too bad we could not have that conversation.
I already answered that in the op. So Im not answering it again, its crystal clear what I believe about Jn 12:32 in the OP, so either accept it or move right along.
It is crystal clear.
The religion of man doesn't believe that the death of Christ alone results in the Eternal Salvation of all for whom Christ died, namely His Sheep Jn 10:11,15 or His Church Eph 5:25, or His People Matt 1:21. His death for His people produces saving results Jn 12:32-33 23,24

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

The Death of Christ alone saved them he died for, namely the Elect, the Sheep, since by His One Offering they were sanctified unto God once and for all Heb 10:10 - 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Yep. All of that is true, but the results of Christ's death is not only salvation. The same cross that saves also condemns, for if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. The latter glory surpasses the former (2 Cor. 3:9-10).
God is glorified as a just God when He metes out the just recompense for sin and He is glorified as a gracious God, when by His grace, though we are not deserving, He saves us from the otherwise just recompense for sin.




Should have just answered the question asked, when asked. There was no ill intent behind the inquiry.
 
Post 63 is important because we do not preach gospel-lite. Every person who has ever lived has lived in a state of condemnation simply because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son, but NOW there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8:1). The road through Calvary is strewn with death and the dead. It is a small gate, and few are those who enter it. Broad is the road to destruction, and many are there that enter it. God will not be mocked; whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. If he sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap destruction, but those who sow to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life (Gal. 6:7-8).

Anyone who does not understand the shrieks of the burning will be heard by those whose arms and voices raised in worship has not fully understood.

Exodus 17:8-13
Then Amalek came and fought against Israel at Rephidim. So Moses said to Joshua, "Choose men for us and go out, fight against Amalek. Tomorrow I will station myself on the top of the hill with the staff of God in my hand." Joshua did as Moses told him, and fought against Amalek; and Moses, Aaron, and Hur went up to the top of the hill. So it came about when Moses held his hand up, that Israel prevailed, and when he let his hand down, Amalek prevailed. But Moses' hands were heavy. Then they took a stone and put it under him, and he sat on it; and Aaron and Hur supported his hands, one on one side and one on the other. Thus, his hands were steady until the sun set. So Joshua overwhelmed Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword.

In the end the field was strewn with dead bodies, and it was through them the victorious walked home, thanking and praising God for the salvation and victory He had provided (knowing that in and of themselves they were no better than the Amalekites).


The saving results of Christ.


Do you think John 12:32 means all men are drawn to Jesus salvifically? Too bad we could not have that conversation.

It is crystal clear.

Yep. All of that is true, but the results of Christ's death is not only salvation. The same cross that saves also condemns, for if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. The latter glory surpasses the former (2 Cor. 3:9-10).
God is glorified as a just God when He metes out the just recompense for sin and He is glorified as a gracious God, when by His grace, though we are not deserving, He saves us from the otherwise just recompense for sin.




Should have just answered the question asked, when asked. There was no ill intent behind the inquiry.
Dont ask me questions I have already answered.
 
Christs death accomplished/effected both Justification and Reconciliation for them He died for, His Elect Rom 5:9-11

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement/reconciliation. 3
Since God is Spirit and is not of dying flesh and blood.

What do you think it means to be justified by His blood? Does literal blood represent His unsen Holy Spirit ?
 
The problem with man made religion that goes out in the name of Christ is this:

They don't believe nor acknowledge that Christ Work alone for those He died for, His Sheep, that it made the salvation of their souls sure and effectual ! 3
 
Dont ask me questions I have already answered.
You did NOT answer the question asked, the matter is easily proved one way or the other by simply citing the post and quoting the answer. You had you chance to discuss this and refused.
 
You did NOT answer the question asked, the matter is easily proved one way or the other by simply citing the post and quoting the answer. You had you chance to discuss this and refused.
You have a chance to discuss post 67
 
You have a chance to discuss post 67
Already posted at length about that. You've ignored it all. That people deny the salvific drawing is definitely a problem, a "man-made religion," but that point has been affirmed; it is not a point in dispute. Anyone asserting an only-salvific drawing to Christ and neglecting the condemning-drawing is..... also preaching a man-made religion.

So you're still the one sabotaging your own op, refusing to discuss very valid and op-relevant content.
 
Already posted at length about that. You've ignored it all. That people deny the salvific drawing is definitely a problem, a "man-made religion," but that point has been affirmed; it is not a point in dispute. Anyone asserting an only-salvific drawing to Christ and neglecting the condemning-drawing is..... also preaching a man-made religion.

So you're still the one sabotaging your own op, refusing to discuss very valid and op-relevant content.
So do you believe the Death of Christ ensures the Salvation of all for whom He died ? Yes or No ?
 
So do you believe the Death of Christ ensures the Salvation of all for whom He died ? Yes or No ?
Yes.

However, I do not believe it is good or commendable practice to define an entire doctrine in one sentence (or with one verse). That practice is, instead, something to be disdained.


Just saying
 
Yes.

However, I do not believe it is good or commendable practice to define an entire doctrine in one sentence (or with one verse). That practice is, instead, something to be disdained.


Just saying
So if you say yes to the question that Christs death ensures the Salvation of everyone He died for, you have to believe in Limited effectual atonement, because some will never be saved, or you believe in universal salvation since you believe everyone He died for shall be saved. Which is it ?
 
Yes.

However, I do not believe it is good or commendable practice to define an entire doctrine in one sentence (or with one verse). That practice is, instead, something to be disdained.


Just saying

So if you say yes to the question that Christs death ensures the Salvation of everyone He died for, you have to believe in Limited effectual atonement, because some will never be saved, or you believe in universal salvation since you believe everyone He died for shall be saved. Which is it ?
Aside from that non sequitur response....

As I said before, you had the opportunity to discuss all this with me and refused to do so. You don't get to try again as if what happened did not happen. I meant what I said.

Galatians 5:19-20
Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are..... enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions.....

Titus 3:9-11
But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.


I asked for topical discourse multiple times. I consistently received the kinds of responses described in Galatians 5:20. As a consequence I've done as scripture directs and posted op-relevant content having nothing to do with the guy who created unnecessary division and refused not to do so. I will continue to comment accordingly as I see fit and if you want to engage me in non-Galatians 5:20 and non-Titus 3:9-11 conversation then acknowledge the wrongdoing and change (confess and repent) in a manner objectively visible in the posts so there is no doubt. Absent that I have no reason to expect anything will be different. These are the standards by which I post, taking responsibility and setting boundaries for myself. You are at liberty to post as you please, but don't expect me to collaborate with the subterfuge already existent and brought about solely by you. If a different conversation is wanted, then post accordingly.






The results of Jesus' death are salvific, but they are not ONLY salvific. Among the many conditions accomplished by his death are those associated with the last day in which everyone will stand before him as Judge and account for every word and deed said and done. Those who sowed to their flesh will reap rot, decay, corruption, destruction - the jus recompense for sin from which they might have otherwise been saved. Alternatively, those who sowed to the Spirit will reap eternal life, saved from sin, death, and the commensurate wrath of God. Excluding the former and emphasizing the former is not the whole gospel.

The uniform response to this should be and unequivocal and exuberant, "Amen!" There is nothing there that should create disagreement or division.

But that's not what you have done. Not once.

It does not matter what the subject is or under what op it is we trade posts..... if you keep the posts about the posts and contribute to the parity of the conversation then you and I will never have any problem. We may still disagree but what happened here will not be repeated. Try me. Start by acknowledging your part in this fracture, show me evidence of change, starting with a simple affirmation of the colored paragraph.
 
Aside from that non sequitur response....

As I said before, you had the opportunity to discuss all this with me and refused to do so. You don't get to try again as if what happened did not happen. I meant what I said.

Galatians 5:19-20
Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are..... enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions.....

Titus 3:9-11
But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.


I asked for topical discourse multiple times. I consistently received the kinds of responses described in Galatians 5:20. As a consequence I've done as scripture directs and posted op-relevant content having nothing to do with the guy who created unnecessary division and refused not to do so. I will continue to comment accordingly as I see fit and if you want to engage me in non-Galatians 5:20 and non-Titus 3:9-11 conversation then acknowledge the wrongdoing and change (confess and repent) in a manner objectively visible in the posts so there is no doubt. Absent that I have no reason to expect anything will be different. These are the standards by which I post, taking responsibility and setting boundaries for myself. You are at liberty to post as you please, but don't expect me to collaborate with the subterfuge already existent and brought about solely by you. If a different conversation is wanted, then post accordingly.






The results of Jesus' death are salvific, but they are not ONLY salvific. Among the many conditions accomplished by his death are those associated with the last day in which everyone will stand before him as Judge and account for every word and deed said and done. Those who sowed to their flesh will reap rot, decay, corruption, destruction - the jus recompense for sin from which they might have otherwise been saved. Alternatively, those who sowed to the Spirit will reap eternal life, saved from sin, death, and the commensurate wrath of God. Excluding the former and emphasizing the former is not the whole gospel.

The uniform response to this should be and unequivocal and exuberant, "Amen!" There is nothing there that should create disagreement or division.

But that's not what you have done. Not once.

It does not matter what the subject is or under what op it is we trade posts..... if you keep the posts about the posts and contribute to the parity of the conversation then you and I will never have any problem. We may still disagree but what happened here will not be repeated. Try me. Start by acknowledging your part in this fracture, show me evidence of change, starting with a simple affirmation of the colored paragraph.
So if you say yes to the question that Christs death ensures the Salvation of everyone He died for, you have to believe in Limited effectual atonement, because some will never be saved, or you believe in universal salvation since you believe everyone He died for shall be saved. Which is it ?
 
So if you say yes to the question that Christs death ensures the Salvation of everyone He died for, you have to believe in Limited effectual atonement, because some will never be saved, or you believe in universal salvation since you believe everyone He died for shall be saved. Which is it ?
Ignored
 
Christs death ensures for all whom He died, deliverance from this present evil world[Salvation] according to the Will of God !

Gal 1:4-5

4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

That fact Glorifies God the Father ! 3
 
Even the ability to come to Christ in faith is a gift based upon the cross of Calvary. At the cross, Christ purchased for His people the Grace to believe in His name Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake

Gal 6:14

14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
 
Christ death results in the salvation of those He died for, so much so, He is called the Captain of their Salvation Heb 2:10

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Mine you, this is in the context of having tasted death for every man in Vs 9. Through and by His death, or His suffering unto death, He became the Captain of their Salvation, through tasting[experiencing] death. Now the word captain is the greek word archēgos and means:

the author, that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause

So by His sufferings, tasting death, He became the originator, the active cause, Captain of their Salvation. It was by this means the Father ordained many sons to Glory.

BTW the word captain is the same word author in Heb 12:2

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Christ is the author/source of our Faith. This would include the OT Saints that went before in Heb 11 as well. Christ their Mediator was the source of their faith. 4
 
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