The Rapture

[Deleted member 5]

It looks like he's pulling it together toward the end. I'll have to watch it again...

I had one person tell me that the reason there were giants after the flood was because one of the women on the ark was impregnated by a Nephilim. Thus we had Goliath.

He also taught that all the elect were non-nephilim, an the non-elect were nephilim which is why God had Israel destroy other nations.

Um.

 

[Deleted member 5]

It's a Topic I won't spend a lot if time debating. I would just say the Old is clearly understood through the New; and the New infers that God has never called an Angel a Son. That's something I can't change believing...

Every time the term Sons of God is used it refers to angels in the OT. That is via God's word.

Gentry also did a wonderful job interpreting the events of Genesis 6 through the NT.

 

[Deleted member 5]

@ReverendRV I know how you feel. But I have to say that Gentry is more than compelling. In fact I believe he nails it, and is very humble in doing so.

 

[ReverendRV]

@ReverendRV I know how you feel. But I have to say that Gentry is more than compelling. In fact I believe he nails it, and is very humble in doing so.

I was listening to him again talk about the three views of genesis 6. He says whichever position we take, we shouldn't be divisive with others who like other positions. ~ Even when they disagree with the interpretation of the "sons of God"?

 

[Deleted member 5]

I was listening to him again talk about the three views of genesis 6. He says whichever position we take, we shouldn't be divisive with others who like other positions. Even when they disagree with the interpretation of the "sons of God"?

Well, I'm not being divisive. Yet he makes a great point as to what the term consistently refers to in its OT usage which is hard to deny.

I'm not divisive nor are you in refusing to believe and stand your ground at the same time, correct?

Or are we both being divisive?

Or to be redundant, is it only me or only you?

So I leave you with those thoughts for the night, lol!!!

 

[Wordsmith]

It's a Topic I won't spend a lot if time debating. I would just say the Old is clearly understood through the New; and the New infers that God has never called an Angel a Son. That's something I can't change believing...

Angels are referred to as sons of God in the book of Job for the same reason Adam was called a son of God. Both angels and Adam were created by the hand of God. You don’t have change what you believe but you can’t change what scripture says. This has absolutely no relation to the use of “sons of God” in the NT.

 

[Wordsmith]

Some Christians believe that the Nephilim Were Demons, partly because the root word for Nephilim is “to Fall”,

Neither Naphillim nor fallen angels are demons. Demons are evil spirits without a body. Angels are creatures created by God and have the ability to appear as humans hence the scripture that says we could entertain angels unawares.

 

[Wordsmith]

Incubus ~ by ReverendRV * May 29

Genesis 6:4 NIV; The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

Some Christians believe that the Nephilim Were Demons, partly because the root word for Nephilim is “to Fall”, and partly because they seem to be categorized differently than the women; the daughters of Man as opposed to the sons of God. But do these distinctions really mean that Demons procreated with women and produced a different race of Men? ~ There are no Verses in the Bible that teach this. Adam is called the son of God in the Gospel of Luke, so we have other options than just Demons. In the Book of Hebrews we find that the first chapter is dedicated to teach us that no Angel has ever been called a son of God; certainly no Fallen Angel could qualify either. Satan loves it when he hears us call Angels sons of God, because that makes HIM equal with God. The Jews recognized this when Jesus said he and God his Father are One, it meant that he is equal with God. Satan elevates himself at Christ’s expense…

Since a Demon can’t procreate with us, just who exactly are the Fallen Ones? After all, Jesus said he was there when Satan Fell from Heaven like a bolt of lightning; right? But we have other options to consider; Adam and Eve. They had one Law to keep, but they broke it and ‘Fell’ into Sin. ~ Are you also Fallen like Adam and Satan? Have you ever told a Lie? What do you call people that Lie? The Bible calls Satan a Liar. Have you ever stolen anything? What do you call those who steal? Yes, the Bible calls Satan a Thief too. Have you ever Hated someone and wished they were dead? Jesus said that this is Murder from the heart. Again, the Bible calls Satan a Murderer. These are just three of the Ten Commandments, if God judged you and Satan this way, would you be innocent or guilty? Would you go to Heaven or Hell? Does this bother you? If it does, then you have crashed like lightning; who’s around to see you Fall like this?

Jesus has seen you Fall; either he will Judge you or Save you. ~ For God so loved the world that he gave his only Begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life! Jesus is able to see you because he is the Son of God who became a Man in order to live a Sinless life for us. This secured his position as the Head of Humanity, and gives us the right to say we lived a Life as good as his; but only if we give him our Sins. This means that since God caught Jesus with our Sins, he is punished instead of us. Jesus shed his blood and died on the Cross to satisfy the Wrath of God against your Sins. But since Jesus is the Way, the Truth and ‘the Life’, he arose from the dead; just like we will when he comes back for his Church. We’re Saved by the Grace of God through Faith in the risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, not by Works lest we should boast. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus as Lord and find a Bible believing Church. ~ Never believe that a Demon can procreate; if it’s true, then the Deity of Christ is suspect. The Pharisees said he did Miracles by the power of the Devil; this is the Unpardonable Sin…

Luke 11:15 KJV; But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils.

I realize this is well beyond the scope of this thread. A new thread may be in order for this topic. No disrespect intended but your post has many scriptural errors that are easily answered with a deep dive into the Bible. Dr Michael Heiser has some very good teaching on this topic. He can be found on YouTube.

 

[Deleted member 6]

@Wordsmith

I‘m starting this exposition of the Olivet Discourse and to keep it from getting too lengthy, I will not cover every verse of it, but will hit the high spots. If there is a verse, or verses I haven’t touched, let me know and I’ll go over it. So, away we go…

 

[Deleted member 6]

To get the context of the Olivet Discourse, I think we need to backup a little and delve into Matthew 23. Jesus had just pronounced seven woes upon the religious leaders and we read this in the seventh woe…

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell? “Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.“[Matthew 23:29-36]

The groundwork for the Olivet Discourse was laid out in Matthew 23 as you can read in the above. “This generation” was not a generation millennia later but contemporary to the time of Jesus and the Apostles while they were alive. Notice how that in the above condemning passage, the murders of Abel and Zechariah were placed upon them as well. Not just them but all the righteous ppl Israel killed up until that point. The time for Israel‘s destruction was to “soon” take place because the time was “near”, ~35 years later.

 

[Deleted member 6]

Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. And He said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.”[Matthew 24:1-2]

Jesus had just finished pronouncing judgment upon Israel when the disciples pointed out the buildings to Him. He then told them they would be laid flat. This was obviously fulfilled in AD 70. I’m sure we are in agreement here.

 

[Deleted member 6]

As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”[vs 3]

Notice how the NASB [I use the ESV now, but my ESV app isn’t very good and copying and pasting, so I’m using the NASBU] uses “age” in lieu of “world”. It wasn’t the endtimes that the Olivet Discourse was about, but the end of the Jewish age, the end for their entrustment of carrying God’s world to the nations. Jesus was taking this responsibility from them and giving it to the church. The church now carries the word into all the nations. The word used for “age” is aion which means in most cases “age” and not “world”. So it’s not the end of time Jesus is speaking about.

 

[Deleted member 6]

And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.”[vss 4-8]

Notice all the things they would see and also experience. That’s why I’m not looking at all this calamity as a sign the end is nigh. All throughout the last 1,000 plus years, there’s been calamities. These things Jesus spoke of here were going on even then. The Black Plague in Europe took out, IIRC, 2/3 of Europe’s population. I read it took 150 years to gain back the population lost during that plague. Then there were all the Inquisitions where the RCC killed many. Mt. Vesuvius erupted in AD 79 killed at least 1,500. Even today, with all the tsunami’s, earthquakes, hurricanes, etc, these things have happened throughout the last 1,000 plus years.

Getting back to the passage of vss 4-8, these were things the disciples would experience, not ppl millennia later. Gamaliel mentions Theudas and Judas of Galilee as two who deceived ppl after Jesus said these words. So, just because ppl may say they are Christ is not proof the end is near, as this has been happening for almost two millennia.

 

[Deleted member 6]

“Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.“[vss 9-14]

Again, Jesus is speaking this to His disciples, so all the “you” mentioned in the above is them and “this generation”. The Jews even betrayed each other as some betrayed their Brethern to the Romans. They killed each other, and even ate some of their children due to starvation. Josephus corroborated much of this in his writings.

First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world.[Romans 1:8]

We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the saints; because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth; just as you learned it from Epaphras, our beloved fellow bond-servant, who is a faithful servant of Christ on our behalf, and he also informed us of your love in the Spirit.[Colossians 1:3-8]

So, the gospel was preached as a testimony to all the nations at that time and then the Jewish age came to an end in AD 70.

 

[Deleted member 6]

“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!”[vss 15-19]

Again, the “you” here is “this generation” and the disciples. The abomination of desolation is not an endtime event, but the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. This was not an end time event, because if it was, fleeing to the mountains would’ve been fruitless. In Luke 21, Luke records Jesus saying “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.[Luke 21:20-22] When they were to see these armies surrounding Jerusalem, they were to know the time of the fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse was to happen, and they knew to leave or be killed as well.

 

[Deleted member 6]

“But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you in advance. So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.“[vss 20-28]


Again, more “you” are the disciples and “this generation“. The great tribulation spoken of here is not a future event but the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. Again, Gamaliel spoke of Theudas and Judas of Galilee as two who lead ppl astray. Then there was also Simon Magus. All these things met their culmination of the destruction of Jerusalem.

 

[Deleted member 6]

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.”[vss 29-31]

Here is where ppl think this is an end time event, but not so. The language used here, “sun will be darkened”, ”moon will not get its light”, ”the stars will fall from the sky”, are used in OT passages that spoke to judgement coming upon a nation or nations.


The oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt; The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence, And the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.[Isaiah 19:1]

Jesus did not literally come riding on a swift cloud, but this is judgment language used to show judgment had been pronounced. He was coming in judgment by using armies of nations to destroy Egypt.

Draw near, O nations, to hear; and listen, O peoples! Let the earth and all it contains hear, and the world and all that springs from it. For the Lord’s indignation is against all the nations, And His wrath against all their armies; He has utterly destroyed them, He has given them over to slaughter. So their slain will be thrown out, And their corpses will give off their stench, And the mountains will be drenched with their blood. And all the host of heaven will wear away, And the sky will be rolled up like a scroll; All their hosts will also wither away As a leaf withers from the vine, Or as one withers from the fig tree.[Isaiah 34:1-4]

We read this “and the sky will be rolled up like a scroll” in Revelation 6:14, but this didn’t literally happen in either place. Again, judgment language used.

 

[Deleted member 6]

“Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.”[vss 32-35]

Here is the culmination of the time of Israel’s demise. That when they see these things, “this generation“, knows that her destruction is to take place. The reason why vss 29-31 precede this passage, is proof the coming in the clouds was not an end time event, but His coming in judgment against Jerusalem and the temple.

 

[Deleted member 6]

@Wordsmith

This wasn’t exhaustive, but if you seek further clarification, I’ll do my best and dig deeper. I just didn’t want to hit you with a tsunami of a post or posts

 

[VCO]

The Rapture.

For those of you who may not know, the Rapture conveys the idea of the transporting of believers from earth to heaven at Christ's second coming. As far as dispensationalists are concerned they believe the Rapture refers to Christ's secret coming when all the believers are suddenly removed from the earth before the great tribulation.

Those who believe this secret coming believe that the event takes place 7 years before Christ returns to earth. These hold to a premillennial, pre-trib view of the rapture. This is also what dispensationalists believe. I am not an expert on this so if there are some dispy's who disagree please bring it up for correction or debate.

I am not a premillennial, pretrib or dispensationalist. I am an Amillennialist.
I believe Jesus returns at the end of the church age, or the time of the great apostasy which happens immediately before the return of Christ. Which marks the end of the millennial age on the earth.

I dont disagree with a rapture, just the time in which it takes place.

Here is where I believe the Rapture takes place. Christ's second coming.

and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 At that time there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left. Matthew 24.



“Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. 43 But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44 For this reason you must be ready as well; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He