The Rapture

[CrowCross]

Horse? Cross? Who would have believed it?

I see no reason as to why it couldn't be a whitehorse....perhaps even a white UFO.

 

[Selah7]

Do you mean he comes twice, and that having come once, he will return once?

Many see that as the Jews will see the anti-christ as the messiah announcing himself in the 3rd temple.

Why is your interpretation correct?

I understand that. Why is your interpretation correct despite the history you have been presented?

What do you mean?

 

[Selah7]

Do you mean he comes twice, and that having come once, he will return once?

Yep

 

[Carbon]

I see no reason as to why it couldn't be a whitehorse....perhaps even a white UFO.

Cuz UFO’s are grey. Ain’t they?

 

[GeneZ]

Cuz UFO’s are grey. Ain’t they?

Not after they all went electric....

 

[CrowCross]

Cuz UFO’s are grey. Ain’t they?

LOL...

The bible has several events with strange flying objects. Ezekiel saw the wheels.

 

[Carbon]

Not after they all went electric....

Huh. I haven’t considered that.

 

[CrowCross]

Not after they all went electric....

I always wondered why such an advanced craft would need the lights everyone sees.

I get it with an airplane, boats or cars....they don't want to collide....but, wouldn't the UFO's have sensors that prevent that? You know like the fancy hands free driving that some of the electric cars have.

 

[CrowCross]

What do you mean?

I was answering this...."When the Antichrist appears, Christians (with the exception of the Elect) will believe that he is the real Jesus Christ and will worship him. That is the falling away, the Great Apostasy."

My response was.... that many believe that the Tribulation is for bringing back the Jews. It is the Jews (unsaved) who will think the anti-christ is their long sought after messiah. They will be deceived.....I would imagine this would also apply to the rest of the earth population.

I asked...why is your interpretation the correct interpretation of that event?

 

[Selah7]

I was answering this...."When the Antichrist appears, Christians (with the exception of the Elect) will believe that he is the real Jesus Christ and will worship him. That is the falling away, the Great Apostasy."

My response was.... that many believe that the Tribulation is for bringing back the Jews. It is the Jews (unsaved) who will think the anti-christ is their long sought after messiah. They will be deceived.....I would imagine this would also apply to the rest of the earth population.

I asked...why is your interpretation the correct interpretation of that event?

Because the Bible tells me so! Have you read the Olivet Prophecy? This might help you. It’s written in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. Here it is Mark 13:

And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled? And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows. But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. And the gospel must first be published among all nations. But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

- Mark 13 (KJV)

 

[ChristB4us]

Your vultures (Eagles) are during the tribulation vs:28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

@preacher4truth & @CrowCross & @Wordsmith & @Marty & @armylngst & @Marilyn C

Reconsider that view in context of Luke 17:26-37 by reading the KJV.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Both the world being overflowed by the flood and Sodom & Gomorrah being destroyed all testify to leaving the place to escape destruction.

If you ever wondered why Jesus says for us to set our hearts on the treasures above and not of the earth is because at the time of the rapture, some believers will be tempted to go back to the house and get that values treasure when they are supposed to go when it is time, leaving everything behind. You can read that below. Nothing of this life will be preserved.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

So when you read the following verses along with how Jesus described how believers will be living as in the days of Noah where eating and drinking and marrying and given in marriage, it will take us all unaware and that cannot happen at the end of the great tribulation when the left behind saints & new believers are being hunted down & killed by the sword if not by starvation because they cannot buy nor sell.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Textus Receptus Greek Text King James Bible With Strongs Dictionary At this link; if you click on the left column Luke #17 and scroll down to the bottom where the blue Greek words are mirroring the words in English, if you click on the last Greek word, it should bring up where they got eagles from which is aetos as defined as "from the same as ahr - aer 109; an eagle (from its wind-like flight):--eagle." I tend to believe wind-like flight is the point of reference for eagles rather than being vultures; like meeting Christ in the air scenario as found in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

Then click on the long blue Greek word 3rd from the end of that verse 37 to find the Greek word "sunago" for how those that are being gathered as defined as "from sun - sun 4862 and agw - ago 71; to lead together, i.e. collect or convene; specially, to entertain (hospitably):--+ accompany, assemble (selves, together), bestow, come together, gather (selves together, up, together), lead into, resort, take in."

Does not sound like He is taking the bad guys away to me but the abiding saints in the last days we are living in now

 

[Wordsmith]

No problem...

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,c so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

At death the soul goes to be with the Lord in heaven.

John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Raised at the LAST day not before the tribulation!

Job 19:26
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

These are not resurrected Christians who have been raptured previously. These are the souls of saints that had died and went to be with the Lord at death and will be reunited with a resurrected eternal body at His coming after the tribulation.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

Nowhere does this say we are removed from the planet and taken back to heaven for 3 1/2 or 7 years!

17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Yes we will rise and meet Him in the air but nowhere does this say we return to heaven.

And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Yes we will always be with Him, but when He comes Jesus sets up shop right here on earth. There is no passage that clearly states we are raptured and go back to heaven. These scriptures you provided do not say that, do you have others? Pre-trib believers make assumptions that are not stated in scripture.

 

[Eleanor]

No problem...

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,c so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

As we descend to earth with him for the Final Judgment (sentencing) of the sheep and the goats.

 

[Eleanor]

Nice to have met you.

You are going to get raptured anyway. That is, if you truly believed in Christ.

Indeed, at the resurrection of the sheep and the goats at the end of time, to meet the Lord in the air and descend with him to earth for the Final Judgment, where we will judge with him.

 

[Eleanor]

My pastor who was an excellent Greek scholar showed us that its the same word derivative was used for when Satan departed from Jesus after failing in the temptation. Luke 4:13

And....

​

The Latin Vulgate Bible, around AD400, used the word decessio, which means “departure.” Seven English translations, from the Wycliffe Bible of 1384 to the Geneva Bible of 1608, all translated the word as departure or departing. The King James Bible of 1611 was the first English version to translate apostasia as “falling away.” ​

​

https://www.heraldofhope.org.au/the-rapture-is-the-departure/​

​

That link has much good information!​

Apostasy is precisely that--departure from Jesus.

 

[Wordsmith]

My pastor who was an excellent Greek scholar showed us that its the same word derivative was used for when Satan departed from Jesus after failing in the temptation. Luke 4:13

And....

​

The Latin Vulgate Bible, around AD400, used the word decessio, which means “departure.” Seven English translations, from the Wycliffe Bible of 1384 to the Geneva Bible of 1608, all translated the word as departure or departing. The King James Bible of 1611 was the first English version to translate apostasia as “falling away.” ​

​

https://www.heraldofhope.org.au/the-rapture-is-the-departure/​

​

That link has much good information!​

868 [e]
apestē
ἀπέστη
departed
V-AIA-3S

The problem here apeste is not the same word as apostasia.One is departing to another location the other is not no matter how much one spins it.


Strong's Greek: 646. ἀποστασία (apostasia) — 2 Occurrences
Acts 21:21 N-AFS
GRK: σοῦ ὅτι ἀποστασίαν διδάσκεις ἀπὸ
NAS: the Gentiles to forsake Moses,
KJV: the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying
INT: you that apostasy you teach from

2 Thessalonians 2:3 N-NFS
GRK: ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ
NAS: you, for [it will not come] unless the apostasy comes
KJV: there come a falling away first,
INT: shall have come the apostasy first and


2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Our Gathering

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Our gathering

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

"that day" is our gathering so to force a rapture into verse 3 would say our gathering (verse 1 & 2) will not come until our gathering (departure from the planet) which makes no sense what so ever. To get around this pre-tribbers have manufacture multiple comings in verses 1 & 2. There is only 1 more coming of the Lord to this planet in our future

 

[Wordsmith]

No...simply connect the dots.

There are no dots in scripture that point to multiple future comings of the Lord!

 

[GeneZ]

868 [e]
apestē
ἀπέστη
departed
V-AIA-3S

The problem here apeste is not the same word as apostasia.One is departing to another location the other is not no matter how much one spins it.


Strong's Greek: 646. ἀποστασία (apostasia) — 2 Occurrences
Acts 21:21 N-AFS
GRK: σοῦ ὅτι ἀποστασίαν διδάσκεις ἀπὸ
NAS: the Gentiles to forsake Moses,
KJV: the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying
INT: you that apostasy you teach from

2 Thessalonians 2:3 N-NFS
GRK: ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ
NAS: you, for [it will not come] unless the apostasy comes
KJV: there come a falling away first,
INT: shall have come the apostasy first and


2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Our Gathering

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Our gathering

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

"that day" is our gathering so to force a rapture into verse 3 would say our gathering (verse 1 & 2) will not come until our gathering (departure from the planet) which makes no sense what so ever. To get around this pre-tribbers have manufacture multiple comings in verses 1 & 2. There is only 1 more

If that is the case then? The great apostasy might just be the result of the emerging system of the soon to be revealed Antichrist. By causing intimidated believers to back down as an evil consensus gains more and more headway over the controlling of the minds of society.

Satan must need to clear the way first for the Antichrist since he will be given only a short time to prove his claim to being better able to run men's lives than God.

Now? If Christianity were strong and effective right up till the Rapture when the Antichrist enters the stage of the world? Many would resist the Antichrist out of disgust. So, mass degeneration of the people must be there as a fertile ground for the Antichrist to walk upon and work quickly without resistance. If not? Satan could claim that the books were rigged and that he never stood a chance to prove himself.

God being gracious, even to his enemies when need be, may have made this provision as to leave Satan to be without excuse when he fails to deliver the goods. That may be why it says God Himself will send a powerful delusion upon the earth. Why else would God do such a thing?

The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth,
that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12

 

[CrowCross]

Because the Bible tells me so! Have you read the Olivet Prophecy? This might help you. It’s written in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. Here it is Mark 13:

Could you hi-lite the part you had in mind....with a bit of your commentary?

 

[CrowCross]

There are no dots in scripture that point to multiple future comings of the Lord!

Yes there is...as mentioned before...Jesus didn't leave riding a white horse. Now, if you can show that He did....I'll say you have a point.