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Dispensation Premillennialism: Fact or Fiction?

I agree with all your post.

Just a note to @CrowCross, The story of redemption is not National Israel/ethnic Jews---pause---and the church---pause---ethnic Israel---the church in national Israel. It is the church as Israel---God's called out ones. Called out of the kingdom of darkness and brought One into the kingdom of God.

One peoples, one nation without borders (a holy nation), one kingdom, priests everyone, set apart for his redemptive purposes.

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness and into his marvelous light.

Eph 2:11-16 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands--remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the Commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, there by killing the hostility.

It was done at the cross, and the above connects the old with the new, making it not a different dispensation as d'ism/a'mil does. Doing that makes an obvious distinction, a division into two peoples of God that Crow denies doing. Interpreting as the Bible does with a covenant relationship, joins the two into one.

And though Dispenastionalism does say that both are saved the same way, through faith in Christ, it has the Jews in some sort of earthly purgatory first, while the whole redemption moves backwards into the old for a thousand years. Something else Crow has refused though asked twice by quoting MacArthurs's text note quote to him, to deal with that (the return to animal sacrifices); he has refused to even acknowledge that the question was asked or the request made.

And then there is this: Eph 3:6 The mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Another interesting failure of understanding on the part of ethnic Israel, is the failure to do what they were supposed to do (which of course served God's purpose, but did not remove their responsibility, the one he gave them.) As unique to all other nations in that their God was a living and acting God, the other nations would see that and hear. At a crossroads of commerce as it was, this revelation of him would spread. Instead they only wanted to be a political power. But what they did not do, God himself did through the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ. Appointing just twelve men, to begin the taking of the good news to the ends of the earth. And so it was and is.

re the last line about the twelve
The reason the 70 were found and trained was that all 70 nations divided by Bab-El's curse were to be reached. See Dr. Heisman's work on this. Very few people work out the connection between Bab-El and Pentecost as he has done.

At the same time, notice (esp in Matthew) that the treatment of the 70 is the same as the treatment of all believers in Mt 24A (before the end of the world), even some of the same expressions are repeated. This is another indicator that the original view of the apostles was that the world would end, wrath on the Jew first, then the Gentile (Rom 2), but then that a delay was allowed, as we now know.
 
Notice what I highlighted in red. Skimming a post to find out the one thing you wish to focus on in order to criticize, unfocuses the OP and takes it off in unnecessary directions.

Can/will you deal with the body of the OP instead of only the introduction?
The distinctive Darby version of it was 1830 I believe, but many of the ECF seemed to hold to a form of Historical premil eschatology
 
The distinctive Darby version of it was 1830 I believe, but many of the ECF seemed to hold to a form of Historical premil eschatology
That is true but that does not mean their eschatological points of view were correct. Premillennialism is the oldest perspective, but Dispensational Premillennialism is the newest and the differences between the two are so substantive it caused those subscribing to an EFC-informed viewpoint to separate themselves from Darbyism. That is why it's called "Historic." Sadly, Dispensational Premillennialists are now being taught Dispensationalism existed prior to Darby when that is not the case.
 
That is true but that does not mean their eschatological points of view were correct. Premillennialism is the oldest perspective, but Dispensational Premillennialism is the newest and the differences between the two are so substantive it caused those subscribing to an EFC-informed viewpoint to separate themselves from Darbyism. That is why it's called "Historic." Sadly, Dispensational Premillennialists are now being taught Dispensationalism existed prior to Darby when that is not the case.
Many prominent Reformed Baptists and soem Reformed did identify themselves with Historical premil eschatology
 
Many prominent Reformed Baptists and soem Reformed did identify themselves with Historical premil eschatology
Yep. Not sure how that is relevant to the op, but it is certainly true. Many prominent Reformed Baptists (such as Gill, Spurgeon, Piper, and Mohler) were/are Historicists.
 
Many prominent Reformed Baptists and soem Reformed did identify themselves with Historical premil eschatology


Just to be clear, that 'historical premil eschatology' does mean that a period would be achieved in ordinary history, right?
 
Just to be clear, that 'historical premil eschatology' does mean that a period would be achieved in ordinary history, right?
Basically its premil eschatology, with the rapture and the second coming as the very same event
 
Basically its premil eschatology, with the rapture and the second coming as the very same event

And is the mill at the end of ordinary history, with a total change after that?
 
Oridary history ends of second coming event, then eternal state after the millennium

OK, then a person would want to ask: why does Peter, with the most complete statement about these things in one pass, say nothing about a millenium, and nothing about another Judaic period?
 
I don't know. I do not hold to a rapture or gathering prior to the resurrection of the Saints. That is those left alive on that last day are caught up as to be clothed with immortality for flesh and blood cannot inherit the eternal Kingdom God promised to those who love and obey Him.
I do hold to a future wrath of God. Even the great tribulation which is the reign of the beast to me. 42 months as opposed to 7 years. I do hold that the 1st resurrection is the resurrection of the righteous spoken of by Jesus as in us all from the ends of the heavens and those not raised on that day must be those who suffer. I note the 1000 years, and it is literal to me. Satan is bound those thousand years and released after the thousand years briefly.

I do hold that those who God calls His children are children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

I do hold that God will restore the Kingdom to Israel and the Kingdoms of the whole world will become the Kingdom of God and His Christ.
 
OK, then a person would want to ask: why does Peter, with the most complete statement about these things in one pass, say nothing about a millenium, and nothing about another Judaic period?
John did mention it though, as does paul
 
John did mention it though, as does paul

but did he mention your conception or what modern people mean? And where is Paul's reference?

A person has to realize that expressions like 'a thousand years' can go at least a couple ways. Now, if Daniel was talking about his weeks of years, and mentioned 1000 specifically, then we would be right to find that. But the way he uses numbers in groups of 7 is not that.

In the literature of the Bible, the expression 'a thousand (fill in the blank)' is never as literal. Plus there is the metonymy of Peter in 2P3: 'a thousand years is merely a day' and 'a day is a thousand years.' Which goes both directions! Did Israel's rebels have 10,000 to go up against Rome's 20,000? No, the numbers were worse (for Israel).
 
but did he mention your conception or what modern people mean? And where is Paul's reference?

A person has to realize that expressions like 'a thousand years' can go at least a couple ways. Now, if Daniel was talking about his weeks of years, and mentioned 1000 specifically, then we would be right to find that. But the way he uses numbers in groups of 7 is not that.

In the literature of the Bible, the expression 'a thousand (fill in the blank)' is never as literal. Plus there is the metonymy of Peter in 2P3: 'a thousand years is merely a day' and 'a day is a thousand years.' Which goes both directions! Did Israel's rebels have 10,000 to go up against Rome's 20,000? No, the numbers were worse (for Israel).
I do see the 144000as an actual number in revelation, for the tribes of Israel
 
I do see the 144000as an actual number in revelation, for the tribes of Israel

But again , in apocalyptic literature (Jewish lit from that period that ‘uncovers’ or explains events) 12 12,000s is too perfect to be realistic. And which Israel does he mean?
 
The most important eschatological passages are Ps 2 and 110.
 
The most important eschatological passages are Ps 2 and 110.
Why? Says who? Is that an assertion to prove your position? Back it up.
 
Why? Says who? Is that an assertion to prove your position? Back it up.

In Acts 2-4, the passage and content that matter most are Ps 2 and 110. Ps 118 is close behind, as is 16. The Son who is King is enthroned in the resurrection as the David vision said. All human, all rulers are to obey him lest they be smashed.
 
In Acts 2-4, the passage and content that matter most are Ps 2 and 110. Ps 118 is close behind, as is 16. The Son who is King is enthroned in the resurrection as the David vision said. All human, all rulers are to obey him lest they be smashed.

The climax of Acts 2 is that the resurrection was the enthronement of Christ, the vision David had seen in v30, 31.

But to see how much this figured in the apostles view of things , see Rom 1, Eph 1, Phil 2, Heb 1.

The NT expectation is that the world would end right after the destruction of the country. Many many passages. But the end was delayed after the DofJ by Gods grace.
 
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