The Presbyterians Are Not Done Reforming From Catholicism

[ChristB4us]

There is a sticking point where even Presbyterian believe in Christ's Presence being in the bread and the wine, thus a variation of that dead works from Catholicism

This explains why my former Covenant Presbyterian Church begins communion service with "We come into His Presence today..." and for why Catholics are attending the church, because they still see the church believing as they do but just not for receiving the atonement at Mass.

Is this not idolatry still? Has not Jesus ascended into Heaven?

Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. 4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands. 5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not: 6 They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not: 7 They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat. 8 They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.

1 Corinthians 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. 18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. 22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he? 23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

By believing His Presence is in the "sacraments", believers are still sinning against God and are at risk of being left behind.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Communion is not how we enter into His Presence at any time when He is in us and with us always as our God is in Heaven.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

So Luther nor the Protestants are done reforming from everything that is Catholicism.

 

[Josheb]

You should have done some fact checking. Joshua, the speaker in the video, has some of his facts wrong. You, building on those errors, have made things worse and ended up arguing a red herring built on straw men. For example, Catholics believe the bread and wine are literally Jesus' flesh and blood and Presbyterians do not. Joshua noted (correctly) Presbyterians believe Jesus is "spiritually present" in the bread and wine but he left out the fact Presbyterians believe Jesus is always and everywhere spiritually present, thereby giving important context to their view of the communion ritual. Furthermore, Presyberians do not believe baptism or communion is causally salvific. Calvin did. Knoxians do not. Joshua used the prhase "effectual means of salvation when received by faith," but it's what Joshua left out that is important because Presbyterianism does NOT hold infants are or will be saved, nor do they hold an infant can or does assert their faith at baptism or that the necessarily will some time in the future when such faculties are attained. The fact is the Reformation began with Luther, not Calvin, and both Luther and Calvin were Catholic, not Lutheran, Calvinist, Reformed, or Presbyterian. Both were Catholics trying to change Catholicism and no Presbyterian today is a Catholic trying to change Catholicism. Knox was first what we now call Anglican. All of that happened 500 years ago and a lot has changed, both doctrinally and liturgically, in the Presbyterian sects.

If Joshua does not know these important details then he hasn't done his homework and at best he is mistaken because of inadequacy and at worst mistaken because of his incompetence. If he does know these details but willfully chose to leave them out then he has committed lies by omission and thereby should never be considered a valid and veracious resource until such a time that he has made the warranted corrections (amends), expressed an intent to improve his performance, and provided proof of those changes.

Bad op.

 

[Josheb]

By believing His Presence is in the "sacraments", believers are still sinning against God and are at risk of being left behind.

Is it being suggested there is a place in creation where Jesus is nowhere present?

 

[Josheb]

Communion is not how we enter into His Presence at any time when He is in us and with us always as our God is in Heaven.

No Presbyterian ever states any such thing.

 

[ChristB4us]

Is it being suggested there is a place in creation where Jesus is nowhere present?

Think about that for a moment.

To make that the truth that Jesus is present everywhere would then allow believers to make an idol of Jesus and when they see miracles happening there as Catholics do proclaim when Jesus is crying in a painting or bleeding from a statue or the virgin Mary weeping, even manifestations of lights impersonating the "Virgin Mary" or Jesus or the Virgin Mary holding the baby Jesus, can be testified but there is one testimony where one witness saw all of that images at one apparition but also the devil in one of those apparition as well.

2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

So how does one test for the spirits of the antichrist? By knowing Jesus Christ is in us. There is no need for Him to be felt or seen outside of us at all other than the spirits of the antichrist seeking to seduce believers away from focusing on the Son to chasing after them for a sign.

If we blur the lines of discernment and believe the Spirit of Christ can be outside of us in the worship place or somewhere we can go to, we are allowing ourselves to fall away from the faith and be led astray.

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

In the Old Covenant, Jews would feel His Presence at the Temple, but not any more now that Christ has come to dwell in us.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

So it doesn't matter if they get visions and prophesies, healings and casting out of devils, in the Azusa Street Revival of 1906-1909, along with being drunk in the spirit, holy laughter, and slain in the spirit, it is an apostate calling to seek to receive Jesus by a sign which is what the emphasis was on in preaching the baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues ( which never comes with interpretation & thus assumed for private use when it is not of Him at all nor by that spirit for which they sought to receive Jesus by. )

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Matthew 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

 

[ChristB4us]

No Presbyterian ever states any such thing.

Going on Youtubes, the First Presbyterian Communion January 3rd 2021 service skipped over how they began the service and so I do not know if they did say that or not.

Candlelight Communion Service - Westminster Presbyterian Church Service has the pastor beginning the service by announcing Christ coming into our lives and the female pastor does it again at about 34:18 in welcoming Jesus into our lives...​

Not quite how my former Covenant Presbyterian Church began communion service with.

Here is one of from my former church and about 1:08 is when he is praying for His presence to be in those elements they were about to receive.

He is a new pastor and has been there for some time long since I have left it, so not sure if he did away with that point of actual service for just doing the video or not.

WEEKLY COMMUNION <----- At this link is another Covenant Presbyterian Church where this quote is read;

"The early Church celebrated weekly communion. The Didache, a late first or early second century document, states, “On the Lord’s Day of the Lord come together, break bread and hold Eucharist.” 1 ~~ end of quote

Skipped down a little bit:

"b. The nature of the sacrament justifies the practice.

The Lord’s Supper is a memorial where we “do this in remembrance” of Jesus — namely his crucifixion. It is also a sign and seal of our communion, or union, with Christ. In taking the bread and cup, we feed on Christ spiritually and are nourished in our faith.

The Westminster Confession on the Lord’s Supper states:

“It also signifies the spiritual nourishment and growth of believers in Jesus… it is a bond and pledge of believers communion with Jesus and with each other.” Chapter 29, 1.

“Worthy receivers, physically partaking of the visible substances of this sacrament, do then also by faith actually and in fact, but not physically or bodily, spiritually receive and feed on Christ crucified and on all the benefits of his death.” Chapter 29. 7

A weekly celebration provides more opportunity to receive the benefits of Christ’s death.~ ~~~~ end of quote

Still talking like a Catholic as if they are receiving Christ by feeding on Him in getting all those benefits when it is supposed to be done in remembrance of Him thus proclaiming His death; not those benefits. There are no benefits to be had when done in remembrance of Him.

Anyway, I had made a complaint about coming into His Presence at communion and they did drop it at one time but then began it again. When I read now why and how they take communion officially as a Presbyterian, how can you believe they would not say that as coming into His Presence at communion?

They have been saying that for the longest time is why I had thought such a lie for the way they began communion service. It took the Lord to make me sensitive to what I say and do that it seems contrary to the faith in Jesus Christ to begin & hold communion service in that way.

 

[Josheb]

Think about that for a moment.

To make that the truth that Jesus is present everywhere would then allow believers to make an idol of Jesus...

Which is why God prohibits idols. I have thought about it and you are not answering my question. What you're doing is dodging the question with a red herring. Presbyterians do not say Jesus is present IN the bread and wine the way Catholics do. Joshua at Ready to Harvest made a mistake and you mistakenly trusted the information in his video is correct when it is not. God is everywhere. Even in hell. So too is His Son. That does not mean God is IN hell, or that Jesus is constantly, always and forever in hell. You were asked a very straightforward, simple, and easy to answer question that had the answer been provided we could then discuss. Instead there's a pile of misused scripture applied to a red herring.

It is Godless!

And I am quite happy to have you post this way because it doesn't simply show a paucity of thought, it demonstrates ungodly fleshly practice. You have got to do better if you're going to have a conversation with me. If you're not actually interested in discussing what I posted then just ignore my posts. Given a choice between silence and ungodly nonsense, silence is the better choice. You should have just answered the question asked.

Yes, it is being suggested there is a place in creation where God and/or Jesus is not.
No, it is not being suggested there is a place where God and/or Jesus is not.

Even when foolish people do foolish things (like make man-made idols and worship them or post misguided ops) the omnipresent God is there. He'll roll the video to prove when everyone stands before the Great White Throne .

Think about that for a moment.

To make that the truth that Jesus is present everywhere would then allow believers to make an idol of Jesus and when they see miracles happening there as Catholics do proclaim when Jesus is crying in a painting or bleeding from a statue or the virgin Mary weeping, even manifestations of lights impersonating the "Virgin Mary" or Jesus or the Virgin Mary holding the baby Jesus, can be testified but there is one testimony where one witness saw all of that images at one apparition but also the devil in one of those apparition as well.

2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

So how does one test for the spirits of the antichrist? By knowing Jesus Christ is in us. There is no need for Him to be felt or seen outside of us at all other than the spirits of the antichrist seeking to seduce believers away from focusing on the Son to chasing after them for a sign.

If we blur the lines of discernment and believe the Spirit of Christ can be outside of us in the worship place or somewhere we can go to, we are allowing ourselves to fall away from the faith and be led astray.

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

In the Old Covenant, Jews would feel His Presence at the Temple, but not any more now that Christ has come to dwell in us.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

So it doesn't matter if they get visions and prophesies, healings and casting out of devils, in the Azusa Street Revival of 1906-1909, along with being drunk in the spirit, holy laughter, and slain in the spirit, it is an apostate calling to seek to receive Jesus by a sign which is what the emphasis was on in preaching the baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues ( which never comes with interpretation & thus assumed for private use when it is not of Him at all nor by that spirit for which they sought to receive Jesus by. )

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Matthew 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

NONE of which has anything to do with Presbyterianism!

What's the title of this op? You could rant about Catholicism all day long every day remaining in this week and still not post a single word about Presbyterianism. If you do that, I'll just point out it's nonsense, ungodly flesh, completely fallacious, and ignorant. So do not give me reason or opportunity to say those things!

Before you start posting second-hand and third-hand criticism of Presbyterianism check your facts. Joshua is wrong in a few places (correct in others). I happen to attend a PCA congregation currently, but I do not call myself Presbyterian. Before this one I attended a EPC congregation and, again, still did not call myself a Presbyterian. I would defend Episcopalianism, Methodism, non-denominationalism, Calvary Chapelism, Church of Christism, or any other ~ism (even Catholicism) against false accusation because despite their flaws no one should be criticized and judged for things to which they do not subscribe and on this occasion, here in this op, you are the false accuser. I have given you the benefit of the doubt and attributed the errors in your posts being due to your use of Joshua's video and the mistakes he made. You're only mistake was not checking his claims. He's the "false teacher," teaching falsely, and you've unwittingly become his falsely-informed student because of your own failure to check his facts and the fact you think your pure and everyone who doesn't believe as you do is impure.

You should have just answered the question asked!





Nothing more was asked of you in Post #3. And when you respond to Post #2 the expectation is that BEFORE POSTING you'll do some fact checking and then respond to the specific content in Post 2. When you respond to Post 4 you'll do likewise and speak only to the fact no Presbyterian communion is how those already in God's presence through the blood of Christ enter His presence through a thimble of wine (or grape juice ) and a wafer or sliver of bread. If you have a quote from an authoritative source within Presbyterianism then post it and make sure it is not a sectarian statement (because there are huge differences between the PCAUSA, the PCA, the EPC, and other Presbyterian sects.

Are you suggesting there is a place in creation where the omnipresent Creator is not present?

 

[Arial]

This explains why my former Covenant Presbyterian Church begins communion service with "We come into His Presence today..." and for why Catholics are attending the church, because they still see the church believing as they do but just not for receiving the atonement at Mass.

Why do you jump to the conclusion that means His presence is in the wine and bread? I doesn't. Have you never read the Scripture where Jesus says wherever two or more are gathered together in my name, I am in their midst? Have you never yourself, or ever heard a prayer begin, "Father we come before you to pray----?" Is not the Spirit of Christ in us? And what did your Presbyterian pastor say after the word "today"?

 

[Arial]

Communion is not how we enter into His Presence at any time when He is in us and with us always as our God is in Heaven.

Did Jesus say regarding the Last Supper---"Do this in remembrance of me."?

 

[Arial]

Think about that for a moment.

To make that the truth that Jesus is present everywhere would then allow believers to make an idol of Jesus and when they see miracles happening there as Catholics do proclaim when Jesus is crying in a painting or bleeding from a statue or the virgin Mary weeping, even manifestations of lights impersonating the "Virgin Mary" or Jesus or the Virgin Mary holding the baby Jesus, can be testified but there is one testimony where one witness saw all of that images at one apparition but also the devil in one of those apparition as well.

2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

So how does one test for the spirits of the antichrist? By knowing Jesus Christ is in us. There is no need for Him to be felt or seen outside of us at all other than the spirits of the antichrist seeking to seduce believers away from focusing on the Son to chasing after them for a sign.

If we blur the lines of discernment and believe the Spirit of Christ can be outside of us in the worship place or somewhere we can go to, we are allowing ourselves to fall away from the faith and be led astray.

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

In the Old Covenant, Jews would feel His Presence at the Temple, but not any more now that Christ has come to dwell in us.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

So it doesn't matter if they get visions and prophesies, healings and casting out of devils, in the Azusa Street Revival of 1906-1909, along with being drunk in the spirit, holy laughter, and slain in the spirit, it is an apostate calling to seek to receive Jesus by a sign which is what the emphasis was on in preaching the baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues ( which never comes with interpretation & thus assumed for private use when it is not of Him at all nor by that spirit for which they sought to receive Jesus by. )

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Matthew 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Hmmmm. I thought the OP was about Presbyterians. What is all this mess doing here?

 

[Josheb]

Going on Youtubes, the First Presbyterian Communion January 3rd 2021 service skipped over how they began the service and so I do not know if they did say that or not.

....and I, @ChristB4us, willfully neglected to investigate, willfully decided to post this op with checking Joshua's claims, and willfully posted about things I knew hadn't been said, and now I expect Josheb to accept my decidedly reprehensible behavior and be persuaded by the 2-minute second-hand report of a decidedly biased stranger I've never met even after he's pointed out some of Joshua's mistakes and asked me questions in goodwill and good faith for my edification and improved service to God and prowess as an internet poster.


Nothing past that makes any difference.

Not quite how my former Covenant Presbyterian Church began communion service with.

Then you KNOW there is some diversity within Presbyterianism and said nothing about it.

The Westminster Confession on the Lord’s Supper states:

“It also signifies the spiritual nourishment and growth of believers in Jesus… it is a bond and pledge of believers communion with Jesus and with each other.” Chapter 29, 1.

“Worthy receivers, physically partaking of the visible substances of this sacrament, do then also by faith actually and in fact, but not physically or bodily, spiritually receive and feed on Christ crucified and on all the benefits of his death.” Chapter 29. 7

A weekly celebration provides more opportunity to receive the benefits of Christ’s death.~ ~~~~ end of quote

Yes, and.....?

Still talking like a Catholic as if they are receiving Christ by feeding on Him...

Nonsense. Utter nonsense. Your bigotry is showing.

The Reformed Protestant view of the Lord's supper is not limited to Presbyterianism, and it most definitely does not claim the bread and wine are literally the flesh and blood of Jesus, as the doctrine of transubstantiation asserts. The Presbyterian reads WCF Article 29:1 to say,

John 6:57
Just as the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, the one who eats me, he also will live because of me.

And had you consulted the scriptural proofs and catechism that accompany the WCF then you'd have also read,

"The Lord’s Supper is a sacrament of the new testament, wherein, by giving and receiving bread and wine according to the appointment of Jesus Christ, his death is showed forth; and they that worthily communicate feed upon his body and blood, to their spiritual nourishment and growth in grace; have their union and communion with him confirmed; testify and renew their thankfulness, into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection"​

Those who partake already have union and communion with Jesus (exactly as I stated in a previous post). Communion is not the means of salvation (as was implied in your posts), not the means of entering into Jesus presence (as you explicitly stated in your post). You not only quote mined, you argued a straw man.

This is now your third strike. There are three options. 1) Admit the errors made by Joshua and the fault of building on a flawed video, 2) ask the mods to delete the thread because its a very bad op, or 3) now that the evidence of malfeasance has been posted and ignored accept your being known as someone who is bent and perverted, and with whom no one in Christ should have anything more to do. And whichever of the three you choose it is still incumbent upon you ro make amends in future ops.


Titus 3:9-11 KJV
But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

I gave you, @ChristB4us, personally, the benefit of the doubt. I pointed out the errors in the video and encouraged you to do your own investigation, gave you the opportunity to correct Josh's errors and post based on correct information, and I did so once, twice, and a third time. The baseless criticism continued, and it continued with quote mines, red herrings, straw men, false equivalences (RCCs and Presbys are not the same), and willful false witness. If you truly, actually accept, believe, and practice God's word then realize Titus 3:9-11 diagnoses this thread and its author. Do NOT be that guy.

Method is just as important as content.

You and I are likely to continue to disagree doctrinally, but that does not mean you cannot become a better apologist for your own views. I trust if you do the work not only will you become a better apologist, but you will also see some of your views need to change. If the roles had been reversed and I'd foolishly posted this video, I'd be facepalming and asking the mods to close the thread. I might ask them to delete it but there is merit in having mistakes remain so others can learn from them.




Let me ask you another pair of questions.

Do you, in the gathering you attend (whatever that may be) practice some form of the Lor'ds supper? And, if so, would you please give me a brief description of how the gathering you attend does that?

Thx

 

[Josheb]

Hmmmm. I thought the OP was about Presbyterians. What is all this mess doing here?

Haters gonna hate. That's what they do.

 

[ChristB4us]

Which is why God prohibits idols. I have thought about it and you are not answering my question. What you're doing is dodging the question with a red herring. Presbyterians do not say Jesus is present IN the bread and wine the way Catholics do. Joshua at Ready to Harvest made a mistake and you mistakenly trusted the information in his video is correct when it is not. God is everywhere. Even in hell. So too is His Son. That does not mean God is IN hell, or that Jesus is constantly, always and forever in hell. You were asked a very straightforward, simple, and easy to answer question that had the answer been provided we could then discuss. Instead there's a pile of misused scripture applied to a red herring.

It is Godless!

And I am quite happy to have you post this way because it doesn't simply show a paucity of thought, it demonstrates ungodly fleshly practice. You have got to do better if you're going to have a conversation with me. If you're not actually interested in discussing what I posted then just ignore my posts. Given a choice between silence and ungodly nonsense, silence is the better choice. You should have just answered the question asked.

Yes, it is being suggested there is a place in creation where God and/or Jesus is not.
No, it is not being suggested there is a place where God and/or Jesus is not.

Even when foolish people do foolish things (like make man-made idols and worship them or post misguided ops) the omnipresent God is there. He'll roll the video to prove when everyone stands before the Great White Throne .

NONE of which has anything to do with Presbyterianism!

What's the title of this op? You could rant about Catholicism all day long every day remaining in this week and still not post a single word about Presbyterianism. If you do that, I'll just point out it's nonsense, ungodly flesh, completely fallacious, and ignorant. So do not give me reason or opportunity to say those things!

Before you start posting second-hand and third-hand criticism of Presbyterianism check your facts. Joshua is wrong in a few places (correct in others). I happen to attend a PCA congregation currently, but I do not call myself Presbyterian. Before this one I attended a EPC congregation and, again, still did not call myself a Presbyterian. I would defend Episcopalianism, Methodism, non-denominationalism, Calvary Chapelism, Church of Christism, or any other ~ism (even Catholicism) against false accusation because despite their flaws no one should be criticized and judged for things to which they do not subscribe and on this occasion, here in this op, you are the false accuser. I have given you the benefit of the doubt and attributed the errors in your posts being due to your use of Joshua's video and the mistakes he made. You're only mistake was not checking his claims. He's the "false teacher," teaching falsely, and you've unwittingly become his falsely-informed student because of your own failure to check his facts and the fact you think your pure and everyone who doesn't believe as you do is impure.

You should have just answered the question asked!


Nothing more was asked of you in Post #3. And when you respond to Post #2 the expectation is that BEFORE POSTING you'll do some fact checking and then respond to the specific content in Post 2. When you respond to Post 4 you'll do likewise and speak only to the fact no Presbyterian communion is how those already in God's presence through the blood of Christ enter His presence through a thimble of wine (or grape juice ) and a wafer or sliver of bread. If you have a quote from an authoritative source within Presbyterianism then post it and make sure it is not a sectarian statement (because there are huge differences between the PCAUSA, the PCA, the EPC, and other Presbyterian sects.

Are you suggesting there is a place in creation where the omnipresent Creator is not present?

I should have known you would turn this around as an attack on me, as usual.

Off topic much? Because your question is a red herring. What does that has to do with the topic? See how misleading the question is?

I took the bait in trying to assess where you are coming from for how you are applying that question to mean and as usual it is a double meaning for you to apply it the other way as an attack on me.

Either you are not paying attention to their words or you think you are being smart aleck, The Lord will rebuke you for it, either way. Wake up!

 

[ChristB4us]

Hmmmm. I thought the OP was about Presbyterians. What is all this mess doing here?

He had asked a question which was off topic and I took the bait in going off topic. He won. Happy?

 

[ChristB4us]

....and I, @ChristB4us, willfully neglected to investigate,

I know what they did when I was formerly a member in that church practically EVERY COMMUNION and so I went looking for validation that this is so with evidence, and I have no idea if it is currently being said at the beginning of communion service.

You wanted me to prove it what I have seen from past experience and I cannot.

Next time I post... it will not be a reply to you.

 

[ChristB4us]

Looking for any evidence that they still do as they did when I was at Covenant United Presbyterian Church in Sharon PA.

Covenant Presbyterian Church Sharon

None of the videos that I can see show the beginning of the communion service where they would say that. So it is just my word.

Anybody that is Presbyterian that actually is paying attention, if you recall it, then add your witness.

 

[ChristB4us]

Trying to see if what they had practiced in my former church was being done in other Presbyterian churches, but so far no.

.Here is one Presbyterian church playing a hymn that is just asking for a Pentecostal/Charismatic phenomenon to occur at 22:25 in the video.

At 53.50 they did not begin communion service as they had done in my former church.

At about 56:14 the female pastor is asking the Lord to anoint us that day and so once again, this is how stuff like the "holy laughter" can happen in Protestant churches when they open the door for that phenomenon to occur.

As you watch, she is praying to anoint the gift of this table "with your spirit of life"... at 56:16

So I see that as putting His Presence in the bread and the wine. Idolatry.

Does every Presbyterian church does it that way? Probably not, as it seems I was mistaken for using my former church as setting the normal practice for all Presbyterian that begins communion service with "We come into His Presence today...".

Anyway.... if any Presbyterian member wishes to heed how they are leading the congregation in prayer and hymns, as well as communion service, as being contrary to their present faith in Jesus Christ, feel free to reply that you are waking up now.

 

[Josheb]

I should have known you would turn this around as an attack on me, as usual.

Three replies: 1) it is warranted and you need to look at this because you do what you do a lot. 2) It has always been within your power NOT to post this way and you continue to refuse to change despite these matters having been brought to your attention. 3) The fact is you started it. You criticize others wrongly and unjustly and you do so willfully without remorse or regret, and I am not the only one who points out to you the problem.

In other words, as I noted previously, this is NOT just a problem with content. It is also a problem with method. It's also a problem of character. The difference between us (you as an individual and we who together recognize the problems of content and method) is that you post criticism without valid evidence, and we give you the benefit of the doubt. This is demonstrated by the fact I made not of Joshua's mistakes - not you personally. I provided an opportunity for you to examine Joshua's mistakes, I provided you with the opportunity to join me in agreement because Joshua's video is DEMONSTRABLY incorrect. I did not make it personal at first. I asked you a question that could have and should have been answered immediately and directly and in place of an immediate and direct answer I got sophistry (which I would gladly have engaged had the original question been answered). I pointed out Presbyterians do not claim communion is how we enter God's presence and you've done nothing to prove otherwise. This op is yours. The onus is on you, not others.

So....

ONLY after gathering the necessary information - information that is objectively demonstrably verifiable, did I make this about you. I tried repeatedly to keep this about the subject of Presbyterians (supposedly) still trying to reform Catholicism. You, on the other hand, have been trying to attack others and when you perceive yourself being personally attacked you get your panties all bunched up and complain. Look in the mirror. Stop hating others. If you have complaints and want to discuss them then provide objectively verifiable proof, not anecdotal opinion.

Off topic much? Because your question is a red herring. What does that has to do with the topic? See how misleading the question is? I took the bait in trying to assess where you are coming from for how you are applying that question to mean and as usual it is a double meaning for you to apply it the other way as an attack on me. Either you are not paying attention to their words or you think you are being smart aleck, The Lord will rebuke you for it, either way. Wake up!

The solution is simple: just provide proof from authoritative Presbyterian sources. The entire thread will instantly change the minute you do so, and the facts in evidence are that you have already been asked to do so and refused. That's on you, and on you alone. As to God rebuking folks...

Proverbs 6:16-19
There are six things which the LORD hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, a false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers.


Yet you do those things routinely. You bear false witness and while I cannot prove it because I cannot read your mind, the ease with which facts and truth can be obtained in the age of computers indicates you do this knowingly and willfully and if that's true then that makes all such posts lies. You may not have recognized Joshua's mistakes upon first listening but the moment you engaged my dissent the onus was on you to prove Joshua correct and you haven't. You elevate yourself above other with snide insinuations God will judge us but not you, every one of these ops is a "wicked plan," and you continue to practice the evil of false accusation with zeal, thereby created strife among the brethren and doing absolutely nothing to change that fact. You could have by now checked the authoritative documents of Presbyterianism and responded accordingly but you haven't. You have chosen to continue the strife when it was easily and readily possible for you to so agreement and consensus.

Look in the mirror.

I told you: IF you provide proof of Presbyterian error(s) then I will agree with you. I meant what I said. No sect is perfect and that includes the Presbys. If YOU are going to criticize and judge someone then do so justly. If and when you do so justly, I will join you. The problem is you do not do so justly and you do not like others pointing it out.

 

[Josheb]

I know what they did...

Prove it.

 

[ChristB4us]

Look how John Calvin and followers for an example like Anderson had applied communion for;

Lord's Supper Practice in the Reformed and Presbyterian Tradition

Anderson explains that deep piety sometimes prevents worshipers from embracing weekly communion. Before he convinced his congregation to celebrate the Eucharist each week, he helped them evaluate their devotion to long sermons, treasured music, and elaborate Lord’s Supper traditions.

He says this devotion was “keeping them from a weekly experience of the Risen Christ present among them, speaking to them in the reading of scripture and preaching of the sermon, and feeding them with the gift of himself through the elements of bread and wine in order that they could be strengthened in their faith and life.”
That is not what communion does because if it did, Jesus would have led with that, but no. Only to be done in remembrance of Him.

Scrolling down at that web page where another follower if Calvin, Larry Sibley paraphrases John Calvin; but take note of "Epiclesis or prayer of consecration" ...I will embolden it in red for you

"Over the centuries, churches have focused more or less on certain parts or have varied the order. But the Great Thanksgiving often includes:

• Sursum corda. Christians have used the “Lift up your hearts” call to prayer since the third century.
• Sanctus. Worshipers speak or sing verses that start with “Holy, holy, holy.”
• Benedictus or institution. The presider often uses the words Paul received from the Lord to explain the significance of bread and wine (1 Corinthians 11:23-26). Old says that when he was a Presbyterian pastor, he patterned this prayer on one by John Knox.
• Memorial Acclamation. Everyone responds by singing or saying the mystery of faith: “Christ has died. Christ is risen. Christ will come again.”
• Epiclesis or prayer of consecration. The presider or presider and worshipers ask the Holy Spirit to transfigure the communion meal so that Jesus is fully present. Here many liturgies have worshipers do the “Great Amen,” Lord’s Prayer, and passing of the peace.
• Breaking and giving. The minister performs the visible word by breaking bread and pouring wine (or lifting trays of already broken and poured elements). The people receive the Lord’s Supper.
• Postcommunion thanksgiving. Worshipers thank God for the sacrament and ask to be sent out with God’s power and presence so others see God in their lives. This section often includes prayer, liturgical responses, and spoken or sung psalms, such as 103, 113, 116, or 138. “We need to teach our congregations the Eucharistic piety. It isn’t just what the minister does. The whole congregation needs to give thanks by offering their lives to God,” Old said.

Make the symbolism bigger​

Water, table, bread, cup, gestures, words. They’re so ordinary, as daily as God’s presence with us, whether or not we notice.

Then again, as Larry Sibley paraphrases John Calvin, we can’t take God full strength. That’s why God comes to us through ordinary things.

“So maybe we ought to make this symbol much stronger than we usually do. A large loaf of real bread, a flagon of wine, and be generous with it, rather than…and flowing water rather than a damp hand on the baby's head, because that's how God is present,” Larry Sibley said at a Calvin Symposium on Worship. He is an author and seminary lecturer in practical theology. ~~~ end of quote

So it is not hard to prove what I have experienced that my former church had began communion service with "We come into His presence today.." when you see what they use communion for... and it is being done for far more than just in remembrance of Him.,