Is Christ's Presence IN the Sacraments at Communion?

[Josheb]

No if it’s not Christ and his real body and blood there is no way to offend

Scripture and reason prove otherwise.

Maybe it’s a symbolic offense, symbolic sickness symbolic death?

Thks

Why ask questions to which you do not want the answer, will never concede to the answer, and lack any and all sincere interest in the answer (which have all already been provided).


The fact is the bread his body was holding in its hand was bread, not his body holding his body. It is very much like Cephas not actually being a literal rock.

 

[donadams]

I just got done explaining the answer to that question. The better question is, "Where does scripture say, 'portray the crucifix'"?

No, the Church must portray Christ resurrected and ascendant, and it needn't do so with graven images.

More gross mishandling of scripture, not a single one of which actually states anything about graven images.

Jesus is God.

Again, I already answered that question.



You are, once again, clearly trolling and self-evidently misusing scripture.

Do you bother to read the scriptures I give to document my positions?

Cos they are not graven images
The icon-o-clast heresy was condemned in the 2nd council of nicea

The true church celebrates the resurrection and ascension

 

[Simons]

1 cor 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

How can a man be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord?

And some sick and others dead?

You keep coming back to this passage as if the judgment that is discussed could only result from a failure to discern that the bread (of the meal) has become the body of Christ (through a change of substance). That assumption fails because it doesn’t account for how Paul described the problem (in the passage itself) and it doesn’t account for how Paul described the solution.

Paul described the problem in a number of ways:

1. there are divisions among you v. 18;

2. some of you go ahead with your own private suppers. As a result, one person remains hungry and another gets drunk v. 21;

3. you despise the church of God by humiliating those who have nothing v. 22;

4. eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner v. 27; and

5. eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ v. 29.

Only the last two of those 5 descriptions could possibly be used to describe the problem at Corinth that you want to find. The first 3 descriptions do not describe a failure to discern that the bread has become the body of Christ through a change of substance and the last 2 do not require that the problem was a failure to discern that the bread has become the body of Christ through a change of substance.

Paul described the means of avoiding judgment in two ways:

1. if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment v. 31; and

2. So then, my brothers and sisters, when you gather to eat, you should all eat together. Anyone who is hungry should eat something at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment. vs. 33-34

Please note that if the problem was a failure to discern that the bread has become the body of Christ through a change of substance then the solution(s) that Paul provided would not actually address the problem…..even though he specifically said that the provided solution would avoid judgment.

When Paul spoke of the body in this passage it is the Church that Paul had in mind. Note that it is whoever eats and drinks without discerning the body….and it isn’t whoever eats without discerning the body and whoever drinks without discerning the blood. Paul wants the participant to discern the body and didn’t require the participant to discern the blood. The “body” that Paul is concerned with here is the same body that he is concerned with at both the start and end of this passage. It is the metaphorical body, namely the Church. It is the Church that was being despised (v. 22) and not being discerned…..and the remedy that Paul provides is for the hungry to eat at home so that they can wait and all eat together….so that none are humiliated and the Church is not despised. That remedy solved the problem because “the body” was the Church. It would not have solved the problem if “the body” was the one that hung on the cross.

 

[donadams]

You keep coming back to this passage as if the judgment that is discussed could only result from a failure to discern that the bread (of the meal) has become the body of Christ (through a change of substance). That assumption fails because it doesn’t account for how Paul described the problem (in the passage itself) and it doesn’t account for how Paul described the solution.

Paul described the problem in a number of ways:

1. there are divisions among you v. 18;

2. some of you go ahead with your own private suppers. As a result, one person remains hungry and another gets drunk v. 21;

3. you despise the church of God by humiliating those who have nothing v. 22;

4. eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner v. 27; and

5. eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ v. 29.

Only the last two of those 5 descriptions could possibly be used to describe the problem at Corinth that you want to find. The first 3 descriptions do not describe a failure to discern that the bread has become the body of Christ through a change of substance and the last 2 do not require that the problem was a failure to discern that the bread has become the body of Christ through a change of substance.

Paul described the means of avoiding judgment in two ways:

1. if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment v. 31; and

2. So then, my brothers and sisters, when you gather to eat, you should all eat together. Anyone who is hungry should eat something at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment. vs. 33-34

Please note that if the problem was a failure to discern that the bread has become the body of Christ through a change of substance then the solution(s) that Paul provided would not actually address the problem…..even though he specifically said that the provided solution would avoid judgment.

When Paul spoke of the body in this passage it is the Church that Paul had in mind. Note that it is whoever eats and drinks without discerning the body….and it isn’t whoever eats without discerning the body and whoever drinks without discerning the blood. Paul wants the participant to discern the body and didn’t require the participant to discern the blood. The “body” that Paul is concerned with here is the same body that he is concerned with at both the start and end of this passage. It is the metaphorical body, namely the Church. It is the Church that was being despised (v. 22) and not being discerned…..and the remedy that Paul provides is for the hungry to eat at home so that they can wait and all eat together….so that none are humiliated and the Church is not despised. That remedy solved the problem because “the body” was the Church. It would not have solved the problem if “the body” was the one that hung on the cross.

Thanks

How could we be sick and dead from a merely symbolic meal?

Symbolic sickness or symbolic death I suppose?

 

[Simons]

Thanks

How could we be sick and dead from a merely symbolic meal?

If you read the passage you should be able to easily figure out that the sickness and death was not from "a merely symbolic meal"...but from God judging members of the Corinthian church for their sin (described as: divisions, despising the church, unworthiness etc.). Perhaps you think that God is only entitled to judge church members when transubstantiation is involved?

 

[donadams]

If you read the passage you should be able to easily figure out that the sickness and death was not from "a merely symbolic meal"...but from God judging members of the Corinthian church for their sin (described as: divisions, despising the church, unworthiness etc.). Perhaps you think that God is only entitled to judge church members when transubstantiation is involved?

It is the blood of Christ!

1 cor 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

The cos of sickness and death is not devisions but “eating in worthily” not in a state of grace

1 cor 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Hebrews 13:10
We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.

The sacrifice of Christ is offered and the holy communion is the sacrament of the altar!

Christ is high priest wearing the seamless garment of the high priest and says the words of the high priest at the consummation of the Passover sacrifice “it is finished”
Christ changed OT Passover into the new covenant Passover in His own body and blood

1 Corinthians 5:7
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ ourpassover is sacrificed for us:

Church offers the sacrifice of Christ

Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.

Priest and victim

Blood on the door post and lintel
(Cross)

Jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

In the Passover they had to eat the lamb

Thks

 

[Josheb]

Do you bother to read the scriptures I give to document my positions?

Yes. That is how I am able to tell you how often you twist and pervert God's word to make it say things it never states.

Cos they are not graven images.

Carvings, sculptures, paintings, and other man-made images are graven images. Most of them (in RCCism and in Protism) are falsehoods, too. Every picture or scripture of Jesus with long hair is wrong. Every sculpture or picture of a handsome Jesus is also, likewise, wrong.

The true church celebrates the resurrection and ascension

Yes, the resurrection and ascension is celebrated, but the true Church does not do so with graven images. It's ironic because what you're arguing (in case you have not yet figured it out) is that the RCC practice graven-image worship in the sacrament of the transubstantiated Eucharist!!!

They do not celebrate the Lord's Supper as the NT era Church did. Instead, the practice the distribution of wafers and sips and call it Jesus, a man-made wafer is Jesus. It's quite reprehensible.

 

[Simons]

It is the blood of Christ!

1 cor 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

Here is more of 1 Corinthians 10 (and not just the verse you employ for proof texting):

Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons.​

It seems that you think participation in the blood is only possible if the blood is substantially present. Likewise, it seems that you think participation in the body is only possible if the body is substantially present. If that was proper reasoning, then participation with the demons would require the demons to be made substantially present in the Pagan sacrifices. Likewise, the altar would need to be made substantially present in the sacrifices offered by the Jews. I trust you can see how your understanding of the one verse can't be correct once the surrounding verses are also taken into account.

Also, please note:

1. that again Paul speaks of the "one body" which is the church and not the body that hung on the cross
2. that the members share a thing that is still a loaf and they are not said to share the body that hung on the cross

The cos of sickness and death is not devisions but “eating in worthily” not in a state of grace

1 cor 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

In 1 Cor 31-34 Paul provided the solution for avoidance of judgment....you have failed to explain how Paul's solution would remedy the problem that you perceive

In the Passover they had to eat the lamb

Well, after they selected the lamb (or kid) they killed it, spread some of its blood on the doorpost, roasted it and ate it quickly. Do Catholics roast the flesh of the Lamb of God after it has been made present via transubstantiation? Did the Jewish Passover involve drinking the blood of the lamb/kid? There just isn’t enough of an exact one-to-one correlation between the Christian communion rite and the Jewish Passover rite for anyone to insist that what is found in the Jewish Passover will have an exact copy of that same element in the Christian communion.

 

[donadams]

Yes. That is how I am able to tell you how often you twist and pervert God's word to make it say things it never states.

Carvings, sculptures, paintings, and other man-made images are graven images. Most of them (in RCCism and in Protism) are falsehoods, too. Every picture or scripture of Jesus with long hair is wrong. Every sculpture or picture of a handsome Jesus is also, likewise, wrong.

Yes, the resurrection and ascension is celebrated, but the true Church does not do so with graven images. It's ironic because what you're arguing (in case you have not yet figured it out) is that the RCC practice graven-image worship in the sacrament of the transubstantiated Eucharist!!!

They do not celebrate the Lord's Supper as the NT era Church did. Instead, the practice the distribution of wafers and sips and call it Jesus, a man-made wafer is Jesus. It's quite reprehensible.

Is the ark of the covenant a graven image?
Is the cherubim on it graven images?
Are the Ten Commandments graven images? It says graven by the finger of God!
Is an image made from a mold a graven image?

Images are approved by the apostolic council with authority from Christ! So that which is forbidden is the worship of images not the images themselves

The church does what Christ does!

 

[donadams]

It is the blood of Christ!

1 cor 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

The cos of sickness and death is not devisions but “eating in worthily” not in a state of grace

1 cor 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Hebrews 13:10
We have an altar, whereof they have noright to eat which serve the tabernacle.

The sacrifice of Christ is offered and the holy communion is the sacrament of the altar!

Christ is high priest wearing the seamless garment of the high priest and says the words of the high priest at the consummation of the Passover sacrifice “it is finished”
Christ changed OT Passover into the new covenant Passover in His own body and blood

1 Corinthians 5:7
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ ourpassover is sacrificed for us:

Church offers the sacrifice of Christ

Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.

Priest and victim

Blood on the door post and lintel
(Cross)

Jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

In the Passover they had to eat the lamb

Thks

 

[donadams]

• • ebrew/Greek
  • Your Content

John 6

King James Version

​

6 After these things Jesus went over the sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias.
2 And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased.
3 And Jesus went up into a mountain, and there he sat with his disciples.
4 And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.
5 When Jesus then lifted up his eyes, and saw a great company come unto him, he saith unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat?
6 And this he said to prove him: for he himself knew what he would do.
7 Philip answered him, Two hundred pennyworth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may take a little.
8 One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, saith unto him,
9 There is a lad here, which hath five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many?
10 And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.
11 And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would.
12 When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost.
13 Therefore they gathered them together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten.
14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.
15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
16 And when even was now come, his disciples went down unto the sea,
17 And entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus was not come to them.
18 And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew.
19 So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid.
20 But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid.
21 Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went.
22 The day following, when the people which stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was none other boat there, save that one whereinto his disciples were entered, and that Jesus went not with his disciples into the boat, but that his disciples were gone away alone;
23 (Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks
24 When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus.
25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

 

[Josheb]

Is the ark of the covenant a graven image?

No

Is the cherubim on it graven images?

No

Are the Ten Commandments graven images? It says graven by the finger of God!

No

Is an image made from a mold a graven image?

If it depicts an image of God, then yes, it is a graven image. None of the things just listed purport to be God. You've argued another red herring.

Images are approved by the apostolic council with authority from Christ! So that which is forbidden is the worship of images not the images themselves

The apostolic council cannot contradict or disobey God and claim to speak on His behalf. God says no graven images. The RCC says, Yes, we can have graven images (and keep Christ on the cross while claiming to celebrate the resurrection and ascension).

The church does what Christ does!

The RCC does NOT do so in this case, and all your posturing does not change that fact. We're not supposed to make man-made images and then worship them. Take the crucifixes out of the RCC buildings and stop calling a wafer of mashed bread God and stop claiming it is representative of the Lord's Supper.

 

[donadams]

Double standard as usual

 

[donadams]

Somebody forgot to tell Solomon

2 Chronicles 2:7
Send me now therefore a man cunning to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass, and in iron, and in purple, and crimson, and blue, andthat can skill to grave with the cunning men that are with me in Judah and in Jerusalem, whom David my father did provide.

1 Cor 2:2
For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Jn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: (on the cross)

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
(Portrayed / crucifix)

Matt 27:3-10 statuary?

Zachariah 11:13 And the Lord said to me: Cast it to the statuary, a handsome price, that I was prized at by them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and I cast them into the house of the Lord to the statuary.

 

[donadams]

No

No

No

If it depicts an image of God, then yes, it is a graven image. None of the things just listed purport to be God. You've argued another red herring.

The apostolic council cannot contradict or disobey God and claim to speak on His behalf. God says no graven images. The RCC says, Yes, we can have graven images (and keep Christ on the cross while claiming to celebrate the resurrection and ascension).

The RCC does NOT do so in this case, and all your posturing does not change that fact. We're not supposed to make man-made images and then worship them. Take the crucifixes out of the RCC buildings and stop calling a wafer of mashed bread God and stop claiming it is representative of the Lord's Supper.

Ark of the covenant a type of mary
Faithful Abraham a type of faithful Mary Lk 1:45
She had to fully offer her son no angel to intervene!

 

[Josheb]

Ark of the covenant a type of mary
Faithful Abraham a type of faithful Mary Lk 1:45
She had to fully offer her son no angel to intervene!

Time, space, and effort-wasting red herring that does nothing more than demonstrate another misguided understanding of the problem to be solved.

 

[donadams]

Time, space, and effort-wasting red herring that does nothing more than demonstrate another misguided understanding of the problem to be solved.

Are Christians required to practice the virtues of Jesus Christ or order presumption and arrogance?

 

[Josheb]

Are Christians required to practice the virtues of Jesus Christ or order presumption and arrogance?

Look in the mirror and ask that question because it's the guy who wrongly imagines it is okay to hijack every thread s/he enters, chronically misuses God's word, chronically misrepresents others' posts, chronically abuses reason, frequently contradicts his own posts, denies the most obvious realities, and eschews others for simply pointing it all out that has the problem of presumption and arrogance.

The fact of scripture is Jesus was holding bread in the hand of his body, and he was not holding a literal piece of his body in the hand of his body when he pronounced the bread his body. The facts of Roman Catholicism are that the sacrament of the Eucharist is NOT what the early Church practiced in the Lord's Supper, wafers of bread are called God, sculpted or carved images of God still hanging on the cross (not resurrected and ascendant) are an inherent artifice in every Roman Catholic building, and transubstantiation is an addition to scripture based on a biased eisegetic reading of scripture.

Yes, Christ's presence is in the sacrament of communion. No, the bread is not literally Jesus.

 

[donadams]

Is the cup literally his blood?

What do we do when two sincere Christians have a reasonable difference of opinion?
Scripture alone don’t solve it!

Who does? Who decides?

Did Christ provide a solution?

Thks

 

[Simons]

Is the cup literally his blood?

No...neither is the wine in the cup

What do we do when two sincere Christians have a reasonable difference of opinion?

extend grace

Scripture alone don’t solve it!

agreed...the exact same situation as existed before the incarnation

Who does? Who decides?

God...eventually

Did Christ provide a solution?

If you mean: Did Christ provide an infallible interpreter of scripture? .....then: 1. we have no record of him claiming to establish such a thing; 2. He didn't think it necessary for the Israelites; and 3. If he did establish such a thing without claiming to do so and without precedent, then he forgot to clearly identify it and as such, those that claim to have it, disagree on what it is.....making it a rather poor solution.

Thks

no worries