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The mystery of works in the gospel of faith: The works we are justified by vs. the works we are not justified by

This is the theological nonsense exposed in the first post. Being saved with faith and works is being saved by faith and works.
Sez who?

Tell it to the apostle (Eph 2:8-9).
The problem with faith aloners, is once they begin to preach their salvation must be with works, then they deny their own salvation of faith alone without works.
Don't confuse your misunderstanding as being Eph 2:8-9, where salvation is by grace through faith. . .not by works, so that no one can boast.
Since faith must have works to be true, then faith that saves can never be without works.
{2:14} What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? {2:20} But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
{2:26} For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Agreed. . . but your conclusion ("then) is contrary to Eph 2:8-9, where it is not the necessary works of true faith which save, it is only the faith itself which saves.
James
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Yes, the man's faith is justified (shown to be true) by its works.
I always find it amazing how some sinners can openly preach a gospel exactly opposite to God's in the Bible,
Agreed. . .
but I'm not interested.
Same here.
 
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Quoting only part of any Scripture, makes it false.

Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!


True. And without doing God's good works, no man is saved nor justified by Jesus Christ.

Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Especially anyone doing unrighteous works against God.
You demonstrate your own axiom: Your first sentence derails your last sentence, because it claims the verses you quote here are false.
 
As likewise the NT has nothing to do with being saved by the faith of Jesus (Eph 2:8-9) and justified by doing his works (Ro 1:17, 3:28).
If it has nothing to do with the powerful work of Christ faith working in us then by whose faith are you justified by ?
 
Can you tell me how much work is required to get saved?
It's useless to continue teaching about God's justifying works, to them that reject the Scripture to be justified by godly works.

Continued blindness to the difference between man's own works without Christ, and doing God's works through Christ, is wilful.

John
{1:5} And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.


Scripture calls it being willingly ignorant of the truth of God's words. In such cases, Jesus admonishes His disciples to just leave them to their own faith and their own way alone.
 
I ask this because salvation is a very important topic...especially for all of the lost.
God's eternal salvation is all important to the soul, and is only for them that repent of their own works for Jesus' sake and obey God alone.

1 John
{2:15} Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. {2:16} For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. {2:17} And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.


Only them doing the will of God shall abide forever, and no amount of one's own faith and doctrine alone will change that simple truth.

Religious sinners only offer a salvation of life in this world, so as to sin less than before, which is better, but never cease from sinning with is by God's deliverance alone.

Amtthew
{1:21} And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.


No unrepented sinner has the saving faith of Jesus Christ, while disobeying God in works.

The gospel of salvation by faith alone without works, is a fraudulent misnomer. What's being preached is salvation by faith alone with sinful works. Some being more than others, and some being less than others, but all still sinning in disobedient works to God.

2 Peter
Spots [they are] and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; {2:14} Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

The continuing spotted religion of sinful man, that is by his own faith alone, is not the pure religion of the faith of Jesus Christ:

James
{1:25} But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein,] he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed... {1:27} Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.

1 Thess
{5:22} Abstain from all appearance of evil. {5:23} And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. {5:24}

2 Peter
{3:13} Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. {3:14} Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

{2:12} Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. {2:13} For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure...That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;


Salvation without doing the work outwardly, is without the saving work of God inwardly. Even as faith without works is dead to God, being alone without God.

Rev
{14:12} Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 
I would think you being a person of the truth
Why do you fight against the truth I teach then?

It's as the king that demanded the prophet speak the truth, and yet hated him for it:

1 Kings
{22:16} And the king said unto him, How many times shall I adjure thee that thou tell me nothing but [that which is] true in the name of the LORD? {22:18} And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would prophesy no good concerning me, but evil?



and having this knowledge would want to try and keep his fellow people out of hell.
The truth can only be taught by doers of the truth, not forced upon others to also do the same.

A person unwilling to repent of all sins and trespasses for Jesus' sake, has no hope of being saved by Jesus' faith.

And yet God is longsuffering in mercy to repent and do the truth. But that is only until the grave, and tomorrow is not promised.

And those that teach other gospels against doing the truth of God at all times, and even preach their own faith of unbelief, that it is impossible to do so, then there is even less hope for them than others that repent not.

2 Peter
{3:16} As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Job
{8:13} So [are] the paths of all that forget God; and the hypocrite’s hope shall perish: {8:14} Whose hope shall be cut off, and whose trust [shall be] a spider’s web. {8:15} He shall lean upon his house, but it shall not stand: he shall hold it fast, but it shall not endure.

Unrepented sinful man's faith alone cannot save any man, and trusting in one's own faith alone to save him, has no hope beyond the grave.

People are free to believe they are saved in this life by their own faith alone, and even separate their saving fatih from their sinful works. They can even have a life bettered by sinning less and doing more good for themselves and society, but it ends in the grave.

The Son of God did not suffer the cross unto death, just so sinful man would learn to do better than before, and yet still crucify the Son unto themselves in life, even if less often than before.
So, how much works do we have to do? Does it have to out weigh our sins?
This is what faith aloners preach. Their own religion of doing more good and less evil than before.

When they then begin to judge their 'saving' faith by how much sin still outweighs good, then they preach a gospel of salvation judgede by good works outweighing the sinful.

That's also when they throw out their own gospel of being saved and justified only by faith, and not by works.

As the first post clearly shows, and has not been addressed (much less refuted): once any faith aloner begins judging their faith as true and saving or not, based upon their 'good works production' or not, then their salvation is judged by their good works outweighing their continued sinful deeds.

And so, even such faith aloners end up agreeing with the truth of all Scriptur, that God certainly will judge us all by our works in the end, whether unto justification or condemnation.

However, I've never seen a faith aloner judging production of works as proof of saving faith or not, ever apply it to themselves. Because it's an entirely arbitrary and subjective judgment of works. It's always someone else's good works production that is lacking, being less than their own. (I wouldn't doubt that with some faith alone leaders, that would include their church-attendance record. And especially their offering plate production.)

It's all just the religious game of unrepented sinners, who at least seek some measure of church discipline. Which in itself is good for society, but always falls short for God's righteous judgment or our works, unto justification and resurrection and everlasting life with God and the Lamb.

No unrepented sinner on earth, that refuses to cease their own sins and trespasses, and also actively preaches against even the possibility of walking with Jesus in the light at all times in this life, would ever even want to be bound to walking in His light forever and ever, at all times...

Psalms
{2:1} Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? {2:2} The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, [saying,] {2:3} Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

{2:4} He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
 
You demonstrate your own axiom: Your first sentence derails your last sentence, because it claims the verses you quote here are false.
I don't mind people jumping in.

I love correction, because it only betters the teaching. But correction without proof is just more wind blowing.
 
If it has nothing to do with the powerful work of Christ faith working in us then by whose faith are you justified by ?
The only powerful work working in them that are disobeying God, is of another christ by their own faith alone.

Eph
{2:1} And you [hath he quickened,] who were dead in trespasses and sins; {2:2} Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

All men were sinners and trespassers on earth, but not all men are still sinning and trespassing with the world. And not all sinners and trespassers of the world also justify themselves with salvation by their own faith alone.

Matthew
{1:21} And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.


The faith of Jesus Christ saves His people from their sinning and trespassing. Only the faith of another christ saves his own people in their sinning and trespassing.

Matthew
{24:24} For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

2 Thess
{2:8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: {2:9} [Even him,] whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, {2:10} And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

The words of Job are ended.
 
It's useless to continue teaching about God's justifying works, to them that reject the Scripture to be justified by godly works.

Continued blindness to the difference between man's own works without Christ, and doing God's works through Christ, is wilful.

John
{1:5} And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.


Scripture calls it being willingly ignorant of the truth of God's words. In such cases, Jesus admonishes His disciples to just leave them to their own faith and their own way alone.
I asked....Can you tell me how much work is required to get saved?...and you didn't answer the question.

Over the years I have asked this question and those who base their salvation on the Jesus + my works = salvation have never given me a straight answer.
I can now add you to the list.
 
God's eternal salvation is all important to the soul, and is only for them that repent of their own works for Jesus' sake and obey God alone.
Now I'm some what lost...are you now saying mans works are not what aids in obtaining salvation?
 
Why do you fight against the truth I teach then?

It's as the king that demanded the prophet speak the truth, and yet hated him for it:
i'm not fighting you...I'm simply asking for clarification...and you seem to think by confusing the issue you speak truth...and if someone doesn't understand your confusion they don't understand the truth. What's up with that?
 
If it has nothing to do with the powerful work of Christ faith working in us then by whose faith are you justified by ?
The Holy Spirit of Christ (2 Co 3:17) gives me to believe in and trust on Jesus and his atoning work for the remission of my sin.
It is my faith, worked in me by the Holy Spirit (Php 1:23), as a gift (Php 1:29).

Through my faith in, trust on Jesus (Jn 3:17-18) and his atoning work (Ro 3:25), my sin is remitted and I am declared righteous (justified) in God's sight.

Faith is by the grace of God working in me, it is my being sure of what I hope for, my being certain of what I do not see (Heb 11:7).

Faith is my faith in Christ and in his blood (Ro 3:25) for the remission of my sin, Php 3:9, Ro 1:17, 3:22, 4:5, 13, 9:30, 10:6, Gal 2:16, Eph 2:8-9, Php 3:9,

which faith in Christ and his atoning work is God's gift in me (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3), just as Noah was saved by his (Noah's) faith (Ge 5:28-9:29) in God's word.

It is my faith in and my trust on Christ and his work, which faith of and trust by me are the gift of the Holy Spirit.
 
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If it has nothing to do with the powerful work of Christ faith working in us then by whose faith are you justified by ?
Would not the faith of Christ be the faith given to us by the Holy Spirit, who is Christ (2 Co 3:18)?
 
Ghada said:
Quoting only part of any Scripture, makes it false.

Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!


True. And without doing God's good works, no man is saved nor justified by Jesus Christ.

Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Especially anyone doing unrighteous works against God.


makesends said:
You demonstrate your own axiom: Your first sentence derails your last sentence, because it claims the verses you quote here are false.

I don't mind people jumping in.

I love correction, because it only betters the teaching. But correction without proof is just more wind blowing.
Sure/ No problem; since you seem to be unable to see the irony of what you said.

You made a statement, and attempted to back it up with scripture, and drew a conclusion. —With me so far?

But your statement, ("Quoting only part of any Scripture, makes it false."), nullifies —even falsifies— the part-scriptures you quoted, thus nullifying the conclusion you made. —Or are you presumptive enough to think that what you intended to direct at your opponent doesn't apply to you too?
 
Would not the faith of Christ be the faith given to us by the Holy Spirit, who is Christ (2 Co 3:18)?
Yes, the exclusive "creative Let there be faith" as a work of His faith or called a labor of His unseen love .

God faithful declaring his will as prophecy "Let there be" and the power to make it know "it was God alone good"

Our faith in trespasses and sin called dead, can duplicate his work of art we are his masterpiece .We have no power of our own Our father calling us dead giving some, a little of his faith or power .Yoked with him our burden can be lighter
 
Yes, the exclusive "creative Let there be faith" as a work of His faith or called a labor of His unseen love .

God faithful declaring his will as prophecy "Let there be" and the power to make it know "it was God alone good"

Our faith in trespasses and sin called dead, can duplicate his work of art we are his masterpiece .We have no power of our own Our father calling us dead giving some, a little of his faith or power .Yoked with him our burden can be lighter
???????
 
Over the years I have asked this question and those who base their salvation on the Jesus + my works = salvation
Since you're not bothering to read what I write in the first post, then I don't waste time explaining things to people who don't care what is written in the first place.
 
i'm not fighting you...
Neither I with you.

I'm simply asking for clarification...
No, you're asking questions, that show you don't read what I write in the first place.

Go back to the first post, read it to understand it. Then if you want specific clarification, I'll be glad to help.


 
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