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Romans 4 vs James 2: Newborn babes vs converted Christians

The verb TETAGMENOI does not occur in Acts 20:13,
Yes, it does.

Act 20:13 ῾Ημεῖς δὲ προελθόντες ἐπὶ τὸ πλοῖον ἀνήχθημεν ἐπὶ τὴν ῏Ασσον ἐκεῖθεν μέλλοντες ἀναλαμβάνειν τὸν Παῦλον· οὕτως γὰρ ἦν διατεταγμένος, μέλλων αὐτὸς πεζεύειν.

διατεταγμένος is the same passive/middle form of τεταγμένος with the prefix δια attached:

G1299
διατάσσω
diatassō
dee-at-as'-so
From G1223 and G5021; to arrange thoroughly, that is, (specifically) institute, prescribe, etc.: - appoint, command, give, (set in) order, ordain.


Here the middle voice is translated/interpreted indicating that Paul "had arranged, intending himself to go by land".

There is no Acts 29:23
 
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First of all, we must make clear ,what both Clark and you fail to make clear. That is, the presuppositional perspective it is coming from. We will see in a moment why that is necessary. He is Wesleyan/ Arminianist. The above statements are true and Reformed theology is in agreement with them. However as we go farther, and not until the very end, do we see that he, while acquiescing to their truthfulness, is reinterpreting their clear meaning. It is extremely subtle. That is why when he gets to his conclusion, people often take off their critical thinking hats and just agree.

Here he throws mud into the waters by appealing to something few people can follow or bother to check, but accept as truth because someone who can present Greek as though he really knows what he is saying, must know what he is saying. (It is also a subtle appeal to his own authority.) But is it true that because τουτο, (this salvation) is neuter gender the relative "this" being in neuter gender, cannot stand for πιστις, (faith) because it is in the feminine gender? Therefore the entire sentence prior to "faith" is the antecedent. (Which, even if that is the case both grace and faith are gifts. But he is going to find a way around that.) See if it makes any more sense than the above.

As to the question I posted "But is it true----" I don't really know. I find it irrelevant in any case, just a tool that is used to arrive at that which one wants it to arrive. I am not even a novice in the Greek language and I have no idea where Clark lands on that. What I do know from searches on the ancient Greek language is that it is not as simple as is stated by Clark, or as you have used it.

Here Clark inserts his presuppositions without identifying them. He makes the statement that grace enables us to believe and gives us the power to believe and by implication, reject what we believe, by disassociating it from "faith", yet using the word "faith." Is there any logic to that statement? We cannot both believe and not believe the same thing at the same time, and scripture, most often in Christ's own voice, tells us that it is believing that gives eternal life. Neither does the scripture ever say that grace is the power to believe. It quite simply says that it is by grace that any are saved and they are saved through faith. It is a gift. I have shown you before, have always had it ignored, that pisteos (faith) in the NT primarily denotes a conviction or belief in the truth of something, often with the implication of trust and reliance. Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. (From Strong's Greek Concordance) So where did Clark's knowledge of Greek go in this regard? The faith necessary for salvation is given to us by God and at that point it becomes ours. We actually have it sealed within us.

Here Clark makes an appeal to his own opinion of what Reformed theology teaches. And a straw man one at that. The conclusion of faith being a gift given to us by God is not that God is believing for us. It is really us who are believing, but we did not get there on our own or simply because God's saving is grace. Clark begins by declaring the truthfulness of Eph 2: 8, announcing that we must never say our faith is a work. And that is very accurate and free willies follow it as though it was itself scripture. They never say it, they deny it to a person's face. And yet, by the end of his writing, Clark has made it nothing but a work. If the faith to believe originates in us, it is us who contribute to our salvation.

Clark then goes off on an unrelated but highly distracting tangent that is given no biblical support and truthfully, because it has none.

Appeal again to his own authority. Where does the word of God say that though?
First of all, we must make clear, what you fail to make clear. That is, the presuppositional perspective the above reply is coming from.
 
Yes, it does.

Act 20:13 ῾Ημεῖς δὲ προελθόντες ἐπὶ τὸ πλοῖον ἀνήχθημεν ἐπὶ τὴν ῏Ασσον ἐκεῖθεν μέλλοντες ἀναλαμβάνειν τὸν Παῦλον· οὕτως γὰρ ἦν διατεταγμένος, μέλλων αὐτὸς πεζεύειν.

διατεταγμένος is the same passive/middle form of τεταγμένος with the prefix δια attached:

G1299
διατάσσω
diatassō
dee-at-as'-so
From G1223 and G5021; to arrange thoroughly, that is, (specifically) institute, prescribe, etc.: - appoint, command, give, (set in) order, ordain.


Here the middle voice is translated/interpreted indicating that Paul "had arranged, intending himself to go by land".

There is no Acts 29:23
First of all it wasn't me saying any of that. It is a copy paste from BIble.org,Acts 29:23 is probably supposed to be Acts 20:13 since those are the two he is comparing.

I am not arguing that in Acts 20:13 that Paul had himself done the arranging and had the intent. But that prefix is not used in Acts 13:48. I am arguing that the Gentiles in Acts 13 did not appoint themselves to eternal life.
 
First of all, we must make clear, what you fail to make clear. That is, the presuppositional perspective the above reply is coming from.
Strike three. See you in a couple of days.

I do have presuppositional opinions. Show me someone who doesn't. But my response was simply a response to the writing of another and no where did I verse off the clear meaning of the actual Scriptures to interject those presuppositions into my response---concerning the scripture itself.
 
First of all it wasn't me saying any of that. It is a copy paste from BIble.org,Acts 29:23 is probably supposed to be Acts 20:13 since those are the two he is comparing.

I am not arguing that in Acts 20:13 that Paul had himself done the arranging and had the intent. But that prefix is not used in Acts 13:48. I am arguing that the Gentiles in Acts 13 did not appoint themselves to eternal life.
The prefix διά [dia] has nothing to do with whether or not the verb form for τάσσω [tassō] is passive or middle voice. I know what you are arguing. I am arguing that your interpretation is incorrect. But I am arguing even more than that. I am arguing since your translation/interpretation of the verse is not grammatical or definitional but rather based solely upon your theological view of predestination, then you cannot logically argue that Acts 13:48 supports your theological view of predestination. That is classic arguing in circles.
 
The prefix διά [dia] has nothing to do with whether or not the verb form for τάσσω [tassō] is passive or middle voice. I know what you are arguing. I am arguing that your interpretation is incorrect. But I am arguing even more than that. I am arguing since your translation/interpretation of the verse is not grammatical or definitional but rather based solely upon your theological view of predestination, then you cannot logically argue that Acts 13:48 supports your theological view of predestination. That is classic arguing in circles.
I am arguing the plain words in conjunction with the full counsel of God in his word. You are not. You are not even taking it into consideration. That is why every time you are given verses that show you to be wrong you simply give others that you interpret as contradicting them.
 
I just repeated your verbal attacks of me and any who believe as I do back on you. But of course, your verbal attacks of me are acceptable, mine in return are not.
I wasn't even addressing you but Clark and his work that you posted.
 
The prefix διά [dia] has nothing to do with whether or not the verb form for τάσσω [tassō] is passive or middle voice. I know what you are arguing. I am arguing that your interpretation is incorrect. But I am arguing even more than that. I am arguing since your translation/interpretation of the verse is not grammatical or definitional but rather based solely upon your theological view of predestination, then you cannot logically argue that Acts 13:48 supports your theological view of predestination. That is classic arguing in circles.
Since God is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul pleases (let the be) For he performs the thing appointed( [tassō] and (it was good) he who is not served by the hands or will of dying mankind he alone can make our hearts soft

Job 23:13-16 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him.
;For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:

Ask oneself who makes new born again hearts soft today ?

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
 
First, so that I might maybe understand your use of the word "cause", did God cause you to pose those questions?
Nice unnecessary fallacious move of the goalposts (we're not discussing claims I made about you or myself). That is another avoidant dodge, an attempt to avoid answering the questions for yourself, in your own words, from your own perspective, in a manner consistent with your own posts, relevant to this op..... and I have already told you I will be happy to answer any op-relevant question I might be asked once I have received answers to the questions I asked (questions that are directly related to something you posted about your position, and questions that could have and should have been answered directly, immediately, and concisely when asked).


I have spoken to you about your habit, or recurring practice of hijacking others' ops for your own agenda. Instead of discussing your claim your soteriology is not synergistically causal (as was asserted many posts ago) we're now mired in repeated attempts to avoid answering the very valid and relevant questions that stem from your posts in this thread. There is a repeated refusal to avoid answering the questions, and willful, blatant attempts to employ fallacy and subterfuge that with each ensuing post takes you further and further away from the op as I try to stick faithfully to the o out of respect for others.

Why answer the questions? What difference would answering the questions asked make?

  1. It would prove the claim your position is not synergistically causal, as was claimed.
  2. It would prove me wrong, and I'll adjust my posts accordingly in the future.
  3. It demonstrates an ability on your part to engage your own viewpoint instead of being avoidant.
  4. It's much more rational than the fallacies already posted.
  5. It moves the conversation forward.
  6. It provides information you, me, and everyone else can rely upon and refer to.
  7. It removes speculation and biased attribution.
  8. It's polite and respectful.
  9. It proves you're not trolling.

That is why.

I ask these questions one more time.....

That is why.

  1. Does God cause the hearing?
  2. Is the listening caused by God?
  3. Is the understanding of what the unregenerate sinner has heard caused by God?
  4. Does God cause the believing?
  5. Does God cause the repenting?
  6. Does God cause the receiving?
  7. Does the baptism occur prior to regeneration? (already answered and the answered acknowledged)

I await your yes or no answers without further delay or obfuscation.
 
Nice unnecessary fallacious move of the goalposts (we're not discussing claims I made about you or myself). That is another avoidant dodge, an attempt to avoid answering the questions for yourself, in your own words, from your own perspective, in a manner consistent with your own posts, relevant to this op..... and I have already told you I will be happy to answer any op-relevant question I might be asked once I have received answers to the questions I asked (questions that are directly related to something you posted about your position, and questions that could have and should have been answered directly, immediately, and concisely when asked).


I have spoken to you about your habit, or recurring practice of hijacking others' ops for your own agenda. Instead of discussing your claim your soteriology is not synergistically causal (as was asserted many posts ago) we're now mired in repeated attempts to avoid answering the very valid and relevant questions that stem from your posts in this thread. There is a repeated refusal to avoid answering the questions, and willful, blatant attempts to employ fallacy and subterfuge that with each ensuing post takes you further and further away from the op as I try to stick faithfully to the o out of respect for others.

Why answer the questions? What difference would answering the questions asked make?

  1. It would prove the claim your position is not synergistically causal, as was claimed.
  2. It would prove me wrong, and I'll adjust my posts accordingly in the future.
  3. It demonstrates an ability on your part to engage your own viewpoint instead of being avoidant.
  4. It's much more rational than the fallacies already posted.
  5. It moves the conversation forward.
  6. It provides information you, me, and everyone else can rely upon and refer to.
  7. It removes speculation and biased attribution.
  8. It's polite and respectful.
  9. It proves you're not trolling.

That is why.

I ask these questions one more time.....

That is why.

  1. Does God cause the hearing?
  2. Is the listening caused by God?
  3. Is the understanding of what the unregenerate sinner has heard caused by God?
  4. Does God cause the believing?
  5. Does God cause the repenting?
  6. Does God cause the receiving?
  7. Does the baptism occur prior to regeneration? (already answered and the answered acknowledged)

I await your yes or no answers without further delay or obfuscation.
Again, give me your definition of "God caused" and I will attempt to answer. My perception here is that the question is not really about what God has caused, but whether or not God has created mankind with free will. In the absence of free will, your questions 1-6 are not really valid questions, they are rhetorical statements.
 
Again, give me your definition of "God caused" and I will attempt to answer. My perception here is that the question is not really about what God has caused, but whether or not God has created mankind with free will. In the absence of free will, your questions 1-6 are not really valid questions, they are rhetorical statements.

That's easy :"Let there be" as a work and the cause "it was good" .The law of Christ's creating faith

The freeing will of Christ is absent?
 
That's easy :"Let there be" as a work and the cause "it was good" .The law of Christ's creating faith

The freeing will of Christ is absent?
What is the law of Christ's creating faith. What does "creating faith" even mean?
 
What is the law of Christ's creating faith. What does "creating faith" even mean?
Not creating faith . . .exercising that power ."Let there be" and the work of faith was God alone good . The very law of faith

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Mixed with the letter of the law "Death" Two laws make one new perfect laws. Apart from each other no power.

The just death mixed with the justifier the work of Christ in us

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Human faith dead in tresspapases and sin has nothing to offer as a work or labor of love. "The let there be" and nothing changes nothing.

Cant have faith as power in him unless first give us his power faith to complete .

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, (death) but by the faith of (coming from) Jesus Christ, even we have believed in (towards )Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of (coming from )Christ, and not by the works of the law: (death) for by the works of the law (death) shall no flesh be justified.

Many say God has no faith (power) as a labor of his let there be labor love. . They say he does not need it as if it was only a human thingamajig. And not the power to create .
 
Again, give me your definition of "God caused" and I will attempt to answer. My perception here is that the question is not really about what God has caused, but whether or not God has created mankind with free will. In the absence of free will, your questions 1-6 are not really valid questions, they are rhetorical statements.
Thank you for your time but I have already addressed every concern in Post #270 so you're delaying again and I'm not putting up with it further. The facts in evidence are that you've made claims you will not support or explain and the delays demonstrate an inability to do so. Whether or not your views of salvation are representative of synergists in general may be debatable but, as it stands, you've proven synergism unwilling and incapable of answering very real and valid questions about synergism. And it looks like this is just another thread you've entered for the sole purpose of trolling.

Waste of everyone's time.
 
Thank you for your time but I have already addressed every concern in Post #270 so you're delaying again and I'm not putting up with it further. The facts in evidence are that you've made claims you will not support or explain and the delays demonstrate an inability to do so. Whether or not your views of salvation are representative of synergists in general may be debatable but, as it stands, you've proven synergism unwilling and incapable of answering very real and valid questions about synergism. And it looks like this is just another thread you've entered for the sole purpose of trolling.

Waste of everyone's time.
I have proved nothing about your view of synergism which I reject since it is nothing more that a false narative in an effort to lend support to your false view of monergism.

I assume that when you say "waste of everyone's time" you are making a comment about me and what I have posted. I would like to note that I have been banned a couple of times for a couple of days for comments I consider less onerous. But perhaps under the circumstances I guess I just have to accept that.
 
I have proved nothing about your view of synergism...
That's correct, but it is also a red herring because it was your view of synergism you were supposed to be proving and that did not happen, either. You've wasted my time and yours procrastinating when the answers could have been provided. Claims made but not supported. Multiple requests for relevant response ignored, actively, willfully obstructed with multiple fallacious responses, and you have still proved nothing about your view of synergism.

However, I feel compelled to make it clear that I do not believe in "synergistic causation". I do not believe we play any part in our salvation other than hearing, believing, repenting, and being baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. In doing that I have not in any way been a cause for salvation.
That is what is stated in Post #213. That, and that alone, is the only thing I have asked you about, so far. It is proven impossible to get answers to very valid and relevant questions directly pertaining to that statement. As I posted immediately after reading that statement.....

Now, this could be cleared up a great deal if you would answer each of the following questions with an immediate, direct, unqualified yes or no.

  1. Does God cause the hearing?
  2. Is the listening caused by God?
  3. Is the understanding of what the unregenerate sinner has heard caused by God?
  4. Does God cause the believing?
  5. Does God cause the repenting?
  6. Does God cause the receiving?
  7. Does the baptism occur prior to regeneration?

Three pages, almost 60 posts, six days, and at least a dozen fallacious responses later only one of those questions has been answered when all of them could have been answered directly, immediately, with the liberty to define "cause" as you choose, and it never happened. Think for a moment what the conversation would look like if I were to ask another question and had to wait 60 posts for no answer, and then another question, and another and another and each time it takes multiple attempts to get any actual answers to any of it.
I would like to note that I have been banned a couple of times for a couple of days for comments I consider less onerous. But perhaps under the circumstances I guess I just have to accept that.
Noted but that, again, is completely irrelevant and serves only as a fallacious obfuscation when the questions asked could have been answered! Every single time you sat down at your computer, signed into the forum, checked the thread and the non-conversation we're having, and chose to post irrelevancy that was also an opportunity to answer the questions asked, clarify your position, prove your claim correct, and further an op-relevant discussion.

Choices were made NOT to answer the questions asked.

Choices were made to obstruct that conversation.

When it comes down to you proving your claims (not my position on anything), that invariably proves impossible and anyone who asks for answers must endure pages of subterfuge only to come to the same conclusion: you cannot and will not prove your case when it comes to foundational aspects of your synergism no matter how patient and forbearing others may be.
 
When it comes down to you proving your claims (not my position on anything), that invariably proves impossible and anyone who asks for answers must endure pages of subterfuge only to come to the same conclusion: you cannot and will not prove your case when it comes to foundational aspects of your synergism no matter how patient and forbearing others may be.
I know what you call monergism. And I know what you call synergism. Now prove to me that you believe in monergistic regeneration. Obviously, you can't do that. I have told you that I do not believe in your monergism. And I have also told you I do not believe in what you call synergism. You can't prove to me what you believe, and I can't prove to you what I believe.
 
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I have proved nothing about your view of synergism which I reject since it is nothing more that a false narative in an effort to lend support to your false view of monergism.

I assume that when you say "waste of everyone's time" you are making a comment about me and what I have posted. I would like to note that I have been banned a couple of times for a couple of days for comments I consider less onerous. But perhaps under the circumstances I guess I just have to accept that.

Monergism. One Holy Spirit of the Father, Christ the husband of the bride. He faithfully works as a labor of his love in many sons of God.

That one God ?

The one God that said "let there be" and "it was a good testimony" ?
 
Monergism. One Holy Spirit of the Father, Christ the husband of the bride. He faithfully works as a labor of his love in many sons of God.

That one God ?

The one God that said "let there be" and "it was a good testimony" ?
That is not what the Calvinists mean when they talk about monergism.
 
That is not what the Calvinists mean when they talk about monergism.
What does he mean to Calvinists?
 
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