The mystery of works in the gospel of faith: The works we are justified by vs. the works we are not justified by

[Eleanor]

The verse is not cut short. Your doctrinal version of it is cut short from the verse. Nowhere does God ever say we are justified by faith, and not by works. Unless the rest of the verse is cut short.

And the only place God speaks of faith alone, without works, is that it's dead to Him.



Gladly.

Romans
{2:11} For there is no respect of persons with God. {2:12} For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; {2:13} (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

James
{1:22} But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
The word of the Lord is His law, and only doers of His will are justified by Him. And so, no one doing not His word, can possibly be justified by Him.

James
{2:24} Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
No matter what the nondoers believe...

The key here of course, is works done in Christ, to the glory of the Father.

These are the only works that justify any man as an obedient son of God.





1 John
{3:7} Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
{2:29} If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

This is called instruction in the righteousness of God, with the first principle of doing His righteousness, to be declared righteous as He.

1 John
{3:9} Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot be sin, because he is born of God.
{5:18} We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

No one that is committing sin is born of God.

2 John
{1:11} Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
Only them doing God's good will are born of God.
Rev
{14:12} Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Faith alone is man's alone, not the saving faith of Jesus that is always keeping His commandments.



Exactly. Not cut short here. Works of the law without the faith of Jesus, justifies no man.

Other unjustified works of man Christ, include doing our own righteousnes, philanthopy of man's purposes, and works of our own sacrifice for vain things not of God.

1 Cor
{13:3} And though I bestow all my goods to feed [the poor,] and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing

Those who want to separate all works from their own faith, salvation, and justification, are purposely blinding themselves to God's judgment of justified works done through His Son, and unjustified works of man's own will.

They aslo openly reject their works being judged by God unto justification or condemnation.Prev

In this life on earth, people can believe wholeheartedly that they are saved and justified by their own faith alone, and none of their works, whether good or evil, will ever judged and condemned. But that doctrinal card doesn't last beyond the grave.

Genesis
{3:5} For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
The subtle lie here is not that we can be as gods in this life, choosing for ourselves what to believe and do according to our own will. The lie is that it lasts forever like the pagan immortal gods of old.

At the end of this life, the righteous God and Judge will go right ahead and judge us all by our works, no matter what we believe or try to say about it. God doesn't care about any persons' doctrinal get-out-of-judgment-free card, played by their own faith alone.

Hebrews
{9:27} And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

God's covenants are promises. The two are not mutually exclusive conditions. Yes, the promises the covenant and salvation of which David spoke in Samuel 23 are related to God's promises in 2 Samuel 7. What does the New Testament say about those 2 Samuel 7 promises? First the 2 Samuel 7 text is about God's temple, and God told David that He, His son, and one of David's sons would be the temple builder. The Old and New Testaments repeatedly tells us God does not dwell in houses built by human hands (Isa. 66:1; 1Kngs. 8:27; Acts 7:48, Acts 17:24) AND God has built His temple (John 2:21; 1 Cor. 3:16). Most importantly, however, is that promise God made to David about one of his descendants sitting on a thrown that would never end. Here's what Acts 2 states about that promise.

Acts 2:29-32
Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Being therefore a prophet and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.

When God made an oath to David and promised David, He would establish his descendant's throne forever....... God was speaking about the resurrection.

It runs throughout the covenants. ALL of them. The gospel was preached to Abraham AND JESUS.

Galatians 3:16
Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

• God promised Abraham.
• God promised Jesus.

God promised both of them.

I hope you're no seeing how salvation from sin, death, and wrath are inherent in every covenant and covenant promise, simply because they are all first and foremost about Jesus, and Jesus resurrected and ascendant. If one specific verse explicitly stating salvation is constituent to God's covenant, then 2 Samuel 23 is the place. However, from beginning to end salvation is inherent in all God's covenants and covenant promises. As I was just explaining to another sibling in another thread,

Revelation 21:1-4
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."

We will be saved. That is God's covenant promise. There will one day be no more death, no more morning, no more weeping, and no more pain. We will be dead......


...and RESURRECTED!

 

[Eleanor]

The verse is not cut short.

Previously addressed. . .

 

[Ghada]

God's covenants are promises. The two are not mutually exclusive conditions. Yes, the promises the covenant and salvation of which David spoke in Samuel 23 are related to God's promises in 2 Samuel 7. What does the New Testament say about those 2 Samuel 7 promises? First the 2 Samuel 7 text is about God's temple, and God told David that He, His son, and one of David's sons would be the temple builder. The Old and New Testaments repeatedly tells us God does not dwell in houses built by human hands (Isa. 66:1; 1Kngs. 8:27; Acts 7:48, Acts 17:24) AND God has built His temple (John 2:21; 1 Cor. 3:16). Most importantly, however, is that promise God made to David about one of his descendants sitting on a thrown that would never end. Here's what Acts 2 states about that promise.

Acts 2:29-32
Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Being therefore a prophet and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.

When God made an oath to David and promised David, He would establish his descendant's throne forever....... God was speaking about the resurrection.

It runs throughout the covenants. ALL of them. The gospel was preached to Abraham AND JESUS.

Galatians 3:16
Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

• God promised Abraham.
• God promised Jesus.

God promised both of them.

I hope you're no seeing how salvation from sin, death, and wrath are inherent in every covenant and covenant promise, simply because they are all first and foremost about Jesus, and Jesus resurrected and ascendant. If one specific verse explicitly stating salvation is constituent to God's covenant, then 2 Samuel 23 is the place. However, from beginning to end salvation is inherent in all God's covenants and covenant promises. As I was just explaining to another sibling in another thread,

Revelation 21:1-4
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."

We will be saved. That is God's covenant promise. There will one day be no more death, no more morning, no more weeping, and no more pain. We will be dead......


...and RESURRECTED!

You must have mistaken me with someone else. Your post has nothing to do with being saved by the faith of Jesus and justified by doing His works.

 

[CrowCross]

Nowhere does the Bible ever say we are saved through faith, and not by works, nor of works. That is a false quote cutting short the rest of Scripture. Nowhere does the Bible excluded any and all works from being saved and justified by Christ.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[Eleanor]

You must have mistaken me with someone else. Your post has nothing to do with being saved by the faith of Jesus and justified by doing His works.

As likewise the NT has nothing to do with being saved by the faith of Jesus (Eph 2:8-9) and justified by doing his works (Ro 1:17, 3:28).

 

[Ghada]

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Better. Now the Scripture is not cut short, so as to unjustly exclude all works done by man, whether they be good by the will of God, or they be evil by the will of man.

No works any person does of their own will, so that they can boast, have anything to do with being saved and justified by Christ.

Titus
{3:4} But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, {3:5} Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Only the works done by the will of God can justify a person with God:

1 Cor
{15:10} But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace [which was bestowed] upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me

Only by the grace of God can any man do the works of God through Jesus Christ, and be justified by God in Christ Jesus. There is nothing for the faithful son to boast of, because it is no longer man doing his own will, but the Spirit of Christ working through him.

 

[Ghada]

James
{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? {2:22} Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? {2:23} And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. {2:24} Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

We see here that the Scripture of righteousness imputed to Abraham by the faith of Christ, was only fulfilled when he did the work of God by that faith, and offered up Isaac by the will of God.

Faith is only made whole with God, by doing the work of His faith.

Romans
{1:5} By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

The faith of God that saves is not alone, but is obeyed. Faith not done is not whole to save, but only half hearted and unjustified with God.

{7:8} Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people; Ephraim is a cake not turned.

And so without the obedient work of faith, one's own faith alone is counted as dead and unrighteous to God. Only them doing His righteous faith, are judged righteous as He by His faith:

1 John
{2:29} If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

{3:7} Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous
In the end only those doing the will of God abide forever. Not those just believing His will is good.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein,] he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Having the faith by hearing only, justifies no man, but only by doing the work of faith, is faith made perfect and whole to save the soul, and to justify the life with God by Jesus Christ.

 

[Ghada]

As likewise the NT has nothing to do with being saved by the faith of Jesus (Eph 2:8-9) and justified by doing his works (Ro 1:17, 3:28).

Wow. Certainly not in your book.

Rom
{3:21} But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; {3:22} Even the righteousness of God [which is] by the faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Gal
{2:16} Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Talk about choosing one's own faith over Jesus' faith, in order to walk one's own sinful way rather than walk as Jesus walked.

I expected some more of the usual twisting around of Scripture, but not open rejection of Jesus' faith and walk. It's actually quite refreshing.

I'll add this one to the hopper: Sinful man's own faith alone, is not the faith of God given by Jesus Christ. And the sinful works of man's own faith alone, are not the works of God done through the faith of Jesus Christ given to them that repent.

1 Cor
{15:10} But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace [which was bestowed] upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Gal
{2:20} I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Rev
{14:12} Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

[CrowCross]

James
{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? {2:22} Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? {2:23} And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. {2:24} Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

We see here that the Scripture of righteousness imputed to Abraham by the faith of Christ, was only fulfilled when he did the work of God by that faith, and offered up Isaac by the will of God.

Faith is only made whole with God, by doing the work of His faith.

Romans
{1:5} By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

The faith of God that saves is not alone, but is obeyed. Faith not done is not whole to save, but only half hearted and unjustified with God.

{7:8} Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people; Ephraim is a cake not turned.

And so without the obedient work of faith, one's own faith alone is counted as dead and unrighteous to God. Only them doing His righteous faith, are judged righteous as He by His faith:

1 John
{2:29} If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

{3:7} Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous
In the end only those doing the will of God abide forever. Not those just believing His will is good.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein,] he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Having the faith by hearing only, justifies no man, but only by doing the work of faith, is faith made perfect and whole to save the soul, and to justify the life with God by Jesus Christ.

Then I suggest you get busy as you have a LOT of work to do.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

No works of man by man and for man alone, can save nor justify any man with God, lest we should boast. Only the works of God done by man for Jesus Christ alone, can save and justify any man with God, that gives Him the glory.

Pure GARBAGE. FAITH (gifted by God) in the SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the cross makes us Born Again. NO "WORKS" have anything to do with it. (Eph 2:8,9)

 

[Ghada]

Pure GARBAGE. FAITH (gifted by God) in the SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the cross makes us Born Again. NO "WORKS" have anything to do with it. (Eph 2:8,9)

2 Peter
{3:3} Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

Only the gospel of righteous salvation offends unrepentant sinners. Especially the religious that want to believe their own manner of faith is good enough for God.

1 John
{3:12} Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous.

 

[Ghada]

Now that above is false. The truth is:

That Jesus is never without His faith nor His works?

That the brethren of Jesus are never without His faith nor His works?

The friends of the world certainly are with Jesus' faith and His works.

James
{4:4} Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

 

[Eleanor]

That Jesus is never without His faith nor His works?

That the brethren of Jesus are never without His faith nor His works?

The friends of the world certainly are with Jesus' faith and His works.

James
{4:4} Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Which does not address the following (post #10):

Now that above is false. The truth is:

"This righteousness from God comes to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and
are justified freely by his grace (not works of any kind) hthrough the redemption that came by Christ Jesus (Ro 3:22-24).
"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing (without works of) the law (good works)." (Ro 3:28)

Those who have been justified by faith alone do good works, but those good works do not justify them, just as they did not save them (Eph 2:8-9). Those good works are the fruit of justification, and salvation, from God alone, by grace alone, through faith alone, so that no one can boast (Eph 2:9, Ro 4:2, 1 Co 1:29).

 

[Ghada]

--so that no one can boast that their works saved them. For salvation is by God, and God alone (Rev 7:10), he shares his glory (of salvation work) with no one (Isa 42:8, 48:11)

Exactly. That's why sinners still doing their own works are not justified with God, and saints doing God's works through Jesus Christ are justified with God.

The former have whereof to boast, and the latter glorify God by Christ Jesus.

1 Peter
{2:11} Dearly beloved, I beseech [you] as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; {2:12} Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by [your] good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

The carnal minded are blind to the difference, and only speak of the former, and refuse to even acknowledge the latter.

John
{1:5} And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

 

[Eleanor]

James
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Correct. . .a faith without works is not true faith, but it is not the works (law keeping) of that faith which justifiy, the NT is clear that it is only the faith itself, apart from those necessary works, which justifies (Ro 3:28).

 

[Mr GLee]

The verse is not cut short.

Please show where my law keeping in Christ justifies me (declared by God to be righteous), when the NT states, "A man is justified by faith without works of the law." (Ro 3:28)

 

[Ghada]

True faith has works, but it is not the works of true faith which saves,

This is the theological nonsense exposed in the first post. Being saved with faith and works is being saved by faith and works.

The problem with faith aloners, is once they begin to preach their salvation must be with works, then they deny their own salvation of faith alone without works.

Since faith must have works to be true, then faith that saves can never be without works.

{2:14} What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? {2:20} But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
{2:26} For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

it is only the faith itself

James
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

I always find it amazing how some sinners can openly preach a gospel exactly opposite to God's in the Bible, but I'm not interested.

2 Tim
{2:16} But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

I don't need a gospel preaching me into more sinning in life. I was able to do that all on my own in my past life. And if I ever want to do some more sinning against God, then I don't need some unrighteous preacher telling me it's ok, because heaven still awaits.

 

[Ghada]

Correct. . .a faith without works is not true faith, but it is not the works (law keeping) of that faith which justifiy,

The carnal minded are blind to the difference between works by law alone, and works fulfilling the law by the faith of Jesus.

John
{1:5} And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

the NT is clear that it is only the faith itself, apart from those necessary works, which justifies (Ro 3:28).

James
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Still amazing to see a gospel exactly opposite to the Bible, being preached by people reading the Bible.

 

[CrowCross]

The problem with faith aloners, is once they begin to preach their salvation must be with works, then they deny their own salvation of faith alone without works.

Can you tell me how much work is required to get saved?

I ask this because salvation is a very important topic...especially for all of the lost.
I would think you being a person of the truth and having this knowledge would want to try and keep his fellow people out of hell. So, how much works do we have to do? Does it have to out weigh our sins?

 

[Ghada]

Which does not address the following (post #10):

Which does not answer the question.

Is it false that Jesus is never without His faith nor His works?

Or, is it false that the brethren of Jesus are never without His faith nor His works?