The god of Calvinism's arbitrary decision.

[makesends]

I have addressed the logical conclusions of some Calvinistic doctrines and some who believe in Calvinism may not have yet come to those conclusions, for whatever reason, in their understanding of Calvinistic doctrine. I consider that they have blinders on.

But when God opens their eyes to the implications of what they really and truly believe, they will see that I have actually addressed those implications.

And maybe my mission here is to stop people from taking Calvinism to its logical conclusions by showing the sheer folly of believing in such a manner; thus preserving Calvinism and keeping those who say they believe in it down a biblical path of believing.

An example of this is that it is a logical conclusion of certain Calvinistic theology, that if I were to choose Christ and yet am not of the elect, it would avail for me nothing but Christ would cast me out.

I often bring up John 6:37 so that the Calvinist may not continue in that misconception.

However it presents the Calvinist with a problem for his theology; because it means that the salvation of man is dependent, at least in part, on the choice of a man to receive Christ.

Because in reading John 6:37 the Calvinist has to admit that a person is not cast out who makes the choice to receive Christ.

Which means that God's choice of him is not all-encompassing as the reason why He is of the elect.

Because if that were the case, God would cast a man out who chose Him but was not of the elect.

You say, "Because in reading John 6:37 the Calvinist has to admit that a person is not cast out who makes the choice to receive Christ." HOW, I ask again, does that present a problem for the Calvinist?

Your hypothetical, again I say, is a bogus situation. It will not occur, so how is it a problem? I'm not even saying that the non-elect will never think he is coming to Christ. Only that he is not coming to Christ, and that he will not.

 

[justbyfaith]

You say, "Because in reading John 6:37 the Calvinist has to admit that a person is not cast out who makes the choice to receive Christ." HOW, I ask again, does that present a problem for the Calvinist?

Your hypothetical, again I say, is a bogus situation. It will not occur, so how is it a problem? I'm not even saying that the non-elect will never think he is coming to Christ. Only that he is not coming to Christ, and that he will not.

You cast doubt on the real salvation of certain people in saying this; and if they were to believe you, you would be effectively be dismantling their helmet of salvation and doing the work of satan in that.

I will say again that a person coming to Christ will not be cast out by Christ;

And that therefore, if a person came to Christ but was of the non-elect, Christ will not cast him out.

Which indicates that he would, in receiving Christ, cross over from the kingdom of the non-elect to the kingdom of the elect.

Which means that his choice in the matter has a bearing on whether he is saved or not.

Because God will not cast him out for being of the non-elect, if he makes a choice to receive Christ.

Therefore, God's choice to make him of the non-elect is not greater than his choice to receive Christ;

For His choice to receive Christ would override God's previous decision to make him of the non-elect.

Of course those who are of the non-elect will never receive Christ.

But, why not?

Is it not because God didn't choose them?

So, God is entirely responsible for the damnation of the sinner.

But my point is that if anyone receives Christ, they are of the elect.

And therefore, technically, it follows that their receiving of Christ is what makes them of the elect.

Even as we might find taught in Romans 8:29, 1 Peter 1:2.

 

[justbyfaith]

If anyone receives Christ, then they are of the elect.

Let us focus on this statement as it is the most edifying.

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
EVEN THOSE WHO THINK THEMSELVES TO BE ACCEPTING HIM, if he did not give them the gift of the Spirit of God, THEY COULD NOT GENERATE SALVIFIC FAITH.

makesends said:
And I'm not saying that they cannot think they are coming to Christ, and I'm not saying that they are not thinking themselves to even be submitting ...er yielding, their life and will to Christ. I'm saying that the only way that submission is real, has nothing to do with what they think they are doing, or what they are feeling. It has to do with the will of God, and the work of the Spirit of God in them, producing salvific faith.

Faith comes before grace in salvation according to Romans 5:2 and Ephesians 2:8-9.

Are you not 'moving the goalposts' to come up with that post? How not? —explain why you say this —what does your point in saying so, have to do with whether the unregenerated dead in their sins can somehow actually come to Christ, submitting, doing what only the alive can do?

Er, no. Romans 5:2 "...through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God." and Ephesians 2:8-9 "8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast."

Show how the faith precedes grace in either one or both of those. It doesn't say so.

 

[justbyfaith]

makesends said:
EVEN THOSE WHO THINK THEMSELVES TO BE ACCEPTING HIM, if he did not give them the gift of the Spirit of God, THEY COULD NOT GENERATE SALVIFIC FAITH.

makesends said:
And I'm not saying that they cannot think they are coming to Christ, and I'm not saying that they are not thinking themselves to even be submitting ...er yielding, their life and will to Christ. I'm saying that the only way that submission is real, has nothing to do with what they think they are doing, or what they are feeling. It has to do with the will of God, and the work of the Spirit of God in them, producing salvific faith.


Are you not 'moving the goalposts' to come up with that post? How not? —explain why you say this —what does your point in saying so, have to do with whether the unregenerated dead in their sins can somehow actually come to Christ, submitting, doing what only the alive can do?

Er, no. Romans 5:2 "...through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God." and Ephesians 2:8-9 "8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast."

Show how the faith precedes grace in either one or both of those. It doesn't say so.

View attachment 631

It surely does say so; but you are too blind to see it.

 

[justbyfaith]

makesends said:
EVEN THOSE WHO THINK THEMSELVES TO BE ACCEPTING HIM, if he did not give them the gift of the Spirit of God, THEY COULD NOT GENERATE SALVIFIC FAITH.

makesends said:
And I'm not saying that they cannot think they are coming to Christ, and I'm not saying that they are not thinking themselves to even be submitting ...er yielding, their life and will to Christ. I'm saying that the only way that submission is real, has nothing to do with what they think they are doing, or what they are feeling. It has to do with the will of God, and the work of the Spirit of God in them, producing salvific faith.


Are you not 'moving the goalposts' to come up with that post? How not? —explain why you say this —what does your point in saying so, have to do with whether the unregenerated dead in their sins can somehow actually come to Christ, submitting, doing what only the alive can do?

Er, no. Romans 5:2 "...through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God." and Ephesians 2:8-9 "8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast."

Show how the faith precedes grace in either one or both of those. It doesn't say so.

View attachment 631

I quoted you as saying what you did because someone previously said that no one had said what you said and then challenged me to produce a quote of the person saying it...so I produced the quote.

 

[justbyfaith]

makesends said:
EVEN THOSE WHO THINK THEMSELVES TO BE ACCEPTING HIM, if he did not give them the gift of the Spirit of God, THEY COULD NOT GENERATE SALVIFIC FAITH.

makesends said:
And I'm not saying that they cannot think they are coming to Christ, and I'm not saying that they are not thinking themselves to even be submitting ...er yielding, their life and will to Christ. I'm saying that the only way that submission is real, has nothing to do with what they think they are doing, or what they are feeling. It has to do with the will of God, and the work of the Spirit of God in them, producing salvific faith.


Are you not 'moving the goalposts' to come up with that post? How not? —explain why you say this —what does your point in saying so, have to do with whether the unregenerated dead in their sins can somehow actually come to Christ, submitting, doing what only the alive can do?

Er, no. Romans 5:2 "...through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God." and Ephesians 2:8-9 "8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast."

Show how the faith precedes grace in either one or both of those. It doesn't say so.

A person who is unregenerated is dead in trespasses and sins but not in the grave.

The Holy Spirit says to him,

Eph 5:14, Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

 

[ReverendRV]

If anyone receives Christ, then they are of the elect.

Let us focus on this statement as it is the most edifying.

That is a true Statement, but our receiving Christ is not the Cause of our receiving God's Unmerited Favor...

 

[makesends]

justbyfaith said:
If anyone receives Christ, then they are of the elect.

Let us focus on this statement as it is the most edifying.

That is a true Statement, but our receiving Christ is not the Cause of our receiving God's Unmerited Favor...

Exactly. To receive is a passive thing, not grabbing, but reception of action from elsewhere. It is done to a person. In fact, it need not even be by decision of the receiver.

 

[makesends]

I quoted you as saying what you did because someone previously said that no one had said what you said and then challenged me to produce a quote of the person saying it...so I produced the quote.

So where are you quoting it from? Where did I say it? For that matter, what is the quote?

 

[makesends]

It surely does say so; but you are too blind to see it.

Are you unable, or unwilling, to show it? Or are you denigrating my spirituality or something?

I don't suppose you need me to tell you what that looks like.

 

[makesends]

A person who is unregenerated is dead in trespasses and sins but not in the grave.

The Holy Spirit says to him,

Eph 5:14, Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

And how does he do it?

 

[justbyfaith]

That is a true Statement, but our receiving Christ is not the Cause of our receiving God's Unmerited Favor...

It remains that if anyone receives Christ, they will be born again.

I take issue with the idea that we are born again before receiving Christ.

Receiving Christ is the catalyst for being born again.

We ask Christ in...He comes in.

He does not come in before we ask Him.

 

[justbyfaith]

So where are you quoting it from? Where did I say it? For that matter, what is the quote?

I'm going to be lazy and not answer your question. You can do the work and find what the quotes were of you.

 

[justbyfaith]

Are you unable, or unwilling, to show it? Or are you denigrating my spirituality or something?

I don't suppose you need me to tell you what that looks like.

We are saved by grace through faith...that clearly means that faith is the avenue by which we are saved by grace. So faith comes first.

We have access by faith into grace. Again, we enter into grace because of faith. So, faith comes before we are recipients of grace.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and credit to you that you understand what I am saying.

If you don't, I believe it is because you have blinders on.

 

[justbyfaith]

And how does he do it?

How does who do what?

 

[makesends]

justbyfaith said:
A person who is unregenerated is dead in trespasses and sins but not in the grave.

The Holy Spirit says to him,

Eph 5:14, Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

makesends said:
And how does he do it?

How does who do what?

How does the sleeper rise from the dead?

 

[makesends]

I'm going to be lazy and not answer your question. You can do the work and find what the quotes were of you.

Ha! In other words, you don't remember what you were referring to. Ok. I don't either.

 

[justbyfaith]

justbyfaith said:
A person who is unregenerated is dead in trespasses and sins but not in the grave.

The Holy Spirit says to him,

Eph 5:14, Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

makesends said:
And how does he do it?


How does the sleeper rise from the dead?

When the Holy Spirit draws him to Christ, it is like an alarm going off.

He then has the option to hit the snooze button and go back into the sleep of death or else to wake up entirely and go about his day.

 

[justbyfaith]

Ha! In other words, you don't remember what you were referring to. Ok. I don't either.

I remember...but it is not really important. It was really more for the person who said that they were going to edit my post if I didn't give the quote.