The god of Calvinism's arbitrary decision.

[Eleanor]

The "Calvinist work around" for that issue that I've been given here is:

"TULIP Unconditional" isn't really "unconditional" at all, but based on God's Foreknowledge about people - i.e. He "elected" the people that would respond correctly to HIS "Calvinist regeneration" thing.

BUT HEY!!! it's only theology, after all.

That ain't the "Calvinist" position.

 

[Eleanor]

No, the Bible teaches that predestination is based in foreknowledge (Romans 8:29, 1 Peter 2:2).

Foreknowledge is knowing them before, not knowing what they will do. 1 Peter is talking to those who already believe and are to grow in this salvation that they have.

God's foreknowledge is knowing in advance what is going to happen because he has decreed that it shall happen.

 

[Arial]

God's foreknowledge is knowing in advance what is going to happen because he has decreed that it shall happen.

That too, but when He says I foreknew someone it has that added use of know. Actually having intimate knowledge of the person. He knew those He would redeem.

 

[makesends]

That too, but when He says I foreknew someone it has that added use of know. Actually having intimate knowledge of the person. He knew those He would redeem.

Of course. Man's mind can't take all of God's nature in, at each thought to which we try to apply it, so he focuses us on one matter at a time.

 

[justbyfaith]

Let me put it a little more plainly. What you have posted might threaten your notions —and maybe the notions of some others— of Calvinism, but Calvinism's doctrines are not threatened by anything you have posted. Yes I might have missed some of your posts, but guessing by the tenor and content of what I did read, no, I don't think you have threatened Calvinism's doctrines. But I don't need to read your posts to think you have not. Calvinism gets its doctrines from Scripture, read with reason. It's hard to unseat that or to chip away at its foundations.

I have addressed the logical conclusions of some Calvinistic doctrines and some who believe in Calvinism may not have yet come to those conclusions, for whatever reason, in their understanding of Calvinistic doctrine. I consider that they have blinders on.

But when God opens their eyes to the implications of what they really and truly believe, they will see that I have actually addressed those implications.

And maybe my mission here is to stop people from taking Calvinism to its logical conclusions by showing the sheer folly of believing in such a manner; thus preserving Calvinism and keeping those who say they believe in it down a biblical path of believing.

An example of this is that it is a logical conclusion of certain Calvinistic theology, that if I were to choose Christ and yet am not of the elect, it would avail for me nothing but Christ would cast me out.

I often bring up John 6:37 so that the Calvinist may not continue in that misconception.

However it presents the Calvinist with a problem for his theology; because it means that the salvation of man is dependent, at least in part, on the choice of a man to receive Christ.

Because in reading John 6:37 the Calvinist has to admit that a person is not cast out who makes the choice to receive Christ.

Which means that God's choice of him is not all-encompassing as the reason why He is of the elect.

Because if that were the case, God would cast a man out who chose Him but was not of the elect.

 

[justbyfaith]

That too, but when He says I foreknew someone it has that added use of know. Actually having intimate knowledge of the person. He knew those He would redeem.

Romans 9:25-26, they were not His people but are now His people.

What? they were not His people from before the foundations of the world?

It indicates that they cross over from death to life at a specific point in their lifetime.

I believe that this is hashed out for us in Hosea 14:2, Romans 10:9-13, and Acts 2:38-39.

 

[makesends]

An example of this is that it is a logical conclusion of certain Calvinistic theology, that if I were to choose Christ and yet am not of the elect, it would avail for me nothing but Christ would cast me out.

That is at least a bogus question —a category error, even.

It is YOUR application of what you understand Calvinism to teach, that you are calling a logical conclusion. But you introduce a bogus hypothetical. It won't happen, so there is no contingent result. If you are not one of the elect, you will not choose Christ. So, I hope you see, it is not the Calvinist that is continuing in a misconception.

However it presents the Calvinist with a problem for his theology; because it means that the salvation of man is dependent, at least in part, on the choice of a man to receive Christ.

Because in reading John 6:37 the Calvinist has to admit that a person is not cast out who makes the choice to receive Christ.

Which means that God's choice of him is not all-encompassing as the reason why He is of the elect.

Because if that were the case, God would cast a man out who chose Him but was not of the elect.

That logic doesn't follow: You say the Calvinist has a problem in that "the salvation of man is dependent, at least in part, on the choice of a man to receive Christ." Now that is bad enough, but the logic that that supposed fact is a problem because John 6:37, which says the one coming to Christ will not be cast out, is something "the Calvinist has to admit", (as though it was an admission rather that an outright claim of the Calvinist.

Again, in your hypothetical, you have someone coming to Christ that will not do so, unless God makes them alive. You are inventing a false notion, then saying that the Calvinist has a problem with the facts. If the Calvinist has a problem with the facts, maybe you can show a fact, instead of non-fact, hypothetical.

 

[justbyfaith]

If the answer to them is <no>, then salvation is dependent on the choice of a man to receive or reject Christ; and therefore there is something that we do in order to procure salvation; and the salvation of a man is dependent on his choice to receive or reject Christ. So, if the answer to the first question was no, you should probably reconsider.

 

[justbyfaith]

No worries. It's not my job or position to judge anyone's salvation. That my friend, is God's business.

I am saying that I do have an unction from the Holy One and do know all things (1 John 2:20) as the verse defines it.

 

[justbyfaith]

That is at least a bogus question —a category error, even.

It is YOUR application of what you understand Calvinism to teach, that you are calling a logical conclusion. But you introduce a bogus hypothetical. It won't happen, so there is no contingent result. If you are not one of the elect, you will not choose Christ. So, I hope you see, it is not the Calvinist that is continuing in a misconception.

But the Calvinist teaches that salvation is not in any way dependent on the choice of the individual.

If a person receiving Christ cannot be cast out, then his choice in the matter bears weight in the matter of whether he is saved.

God cannot reject him over him not being of the elect.

Therefore, if I choose Christ, am I not of the elect?

How then is my salvation not dependent, at least to some degree, on the choice that I have made?

 

[justbyfaith]

That logic doesn't follow: You say the Calvinist has a problem in that "the salvation of man is dependent, at least in part, on the choice of a man to receive Christ." Now that is bad enough, but the logic that that supposed fact is a problem because John 6:37, which says the one coming to Christ will not be cast out, is something "the Calvinist has to admit", (as though it was an admission rather that an outright claim of the Calvinist.

Again, in your hypothetical, you have someone coming to Christ that will not do so, unless God makes them alive. You are inventing a false notion, then saying that the Calvinist has a problem with the facts. If the Calvinist has a problem with the facts, maybe you can show a fact, instead of non-fact, hypothetical.

So, you are saying that one cannot come to Christ unless he is of the elect.

It remains that the person hearing the doctrines of Calvinism can easily make the conclusion that they may not be of the elect and that therefore it may be impossible for them to be saved.

The case has been made that if you want to know that you are of the elect, then receive Christ; and you will find that you are of the elect.

However, the very same thing has been rejected by some Calvinists.

It is to them that I present this issue.

My question being, do you believe that, if someone is not of the elect, that God will close the door on them in their attempt to believe in, receive, and follow Christ?

My contention is that the door of salvation is open to everyone.

That Christ died for everyone (1 John 2:2) and that therefore no one who receives Him will be cast away for any reason.

I do believe that Calvinism, at least in some circles, presents the idea that if someone is not of the elect, they cannot be saved.

I just want to make sure that everyone knows that if anyone comes to Christ in repentance, they shall be saved.

Because I think that certain doctrines in Calvinism confuse the issue to a very great extent.

 

[justbyfaith]

You say the Calvinist has a problem in that "the salvation of man is dependent, at least in part, on the choice of a man to receive Christ." Now that is bad enough,

Why is that bad? Does it not place the responsibility on man to receive Christ instead of passing it off on God?

 

[justbyfaith]

1Jo 2:1, My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jo 2:2, And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Here, if "the whole world" is speaking merely of the elect, then whose sins are "our sins"?

For the apostle writes that Jesus is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world.

In saying, not for ours only, he is saying that He died as a propitiation for more than just our sins (as of the elect), but that He died for the sins of the whole world (as being a greater number than of the elect).

In other words, "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2, cannot be speaking of the elect; because we identify the elect in what was spoken previously, in "our (the elect's) sins"...so that "the whole world", spoken of afterward, is "not for ours (the elect's) only"; but again, is speaking of a greater number than of the elect.

"the whole world", therefore, is speaking of the whole world...i.e. all who live on planet earth.

 

[ReverendRV]

No. I believe that the god of the Calvinist is the cosmic monster of another gospel entirely (Galatians 1:6-9).

Why? Calvinists are Sola Scripturists, like you; right?

 

[justbyfaith]

Why? Calvinists are Sola Scripturists, like you; right?

They teach another gospel, which is not another, but their concepts are a twisting of the concepts of holy scripture (Galatians 1:6-9).

 

[ReverendRV]

They teach another gospel, which is not another, but their concepts are a twisting of the concepts of holy scripture (Galatians 1:6-9).

What is the other Gospel they teach?

I'll Post a Gospel Tract I've written, and please tell me if it's a different Gospel...

 

[ReverendRV]

What is the other Gospel they teach?

I'll Post a Gospel Tract I've written, and please tell me if it's a different Gospel...

The Birds ~ by ReverendRV * October 21

Matthew 13:4 GW; Some seeds were planted along the road, and birds came and devoured them.

Jesus used four examples of ground to teach about our Hearts and described them like different kinds of Soils which received a Farmers seed. One was freshly tilled soil, another was weedy soil, yet another was rocky soil, but one was the hardest soil of them all; the trodden path where nothing grew. Jesus would go on to explain that the seed symbolizes his Gospel and its effect on the different types of ‘Souls’. ~ You may have the hardest heart there is and the birds just carry the seed away, but I have news for you; Jesus went on to say that if the birds didn’t fly away with the Gospel seed, you WOULD believe and be Saved. The reason for this conversion is because of how dynamic the Gospel is! The Gospel is the power of God unto Salvation. It is the same power that God raised people from the dead with. You don’t stand a chance and have no control over it; the Gospel can penetrate your Heart no matter what. If you don’t like feeling out of control like this, wait until you hear the rest of the story; the worse is yet to come…

Jesus said that the birds are Satan stealing the Gospel seed from those who don’t understand, lest they believe and be Saved. There is a Spiritual War going on and we’re in the middle of a battle. If you don’t like being out of control regarding the Power of the Gospel, you really shouldn’t like having no control over Satan taking away your best chance in life! What you need is Understanding; let me help you. ~ Have you ever Lied? What name do you call a person if they tell Lies? Have you ever stolen something? What name do you call someone that steals? Are you beginning to understand? Jesus said that Hatred is Murder in the Heart, certainly a hard Heart has hated; right? Have you ever hated anyone? These are only three of the Ten Commandments, shall we go on? If God judged you by this standard would you be innocent or guilty? If you understand, you’d be guilty. Does this bother you?? God sends guilty Sinners to an eternal Hell; but you don’t have to go. You can hang up a scarecrow to keep the birds away…

Jesus was hung on a Cross like a scarecrow. The reason for this was so that he could receive the Wrath of God for Sins he never committed. Jesus lived his whole life and never Sinned by breaking any of God’s Laws. This made him like a spotless lamb whose fleece is white as snow. Jesus gladly gave up his life and shed his blood so that we wouldn’t have to go through this as punishment for our Sins. He died and was buried in a borrowed tomb, but rose from the dead after three calendar days. He conquered death and the grave, and after forty days he ascended to Heaven where he awaits the day he’ll bring us to himself. We’re Saved by Grace through Faith in Jesus as our Risen Lord and Savior, without our tilling the ground. Repent and go to a Church that teaches the Gospel and the Bible. ~ Alfred Hitchcock made a horror film called ‘The Birds’. Nature began to turn on Mankind and the fowls of the air started to attack. No eye or ear was safe from them and many would lose their lives. Stay close to Jesus and you will be safe...

Matthew 13:18 KJV; But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

 

[justbyfaith]

The Birds ~ by ReverendRV * October 21

Matthew 13:4 GW; Some seeds were planted along the road, and birds came and devoured them.

Jesus used four examples of ground to teach about our Hearts and described them like different kinds of Soils which received a Farmers seed. One was freshly tilled soil, another was weedy soil, yet another was rocky soil, but one was the hardest soil of them all; the trodden path where nothing grew. Jesus would go on to explain that the seed symbolizes his Gospel and its effect on the different types of ‘Souls’. ~ You may have the hardest heart there is and the birds just carry the seed away, but I have news for you; Jesus went on to say that if the birds didn’t fly away with the Gospel seed, you WOULD believe and be Saved. The reason for this conversion is because of how dynamic the Gospel is! The Gospel is the power of God unto Salvation. It is the same power that God raised people from the dead with. You don’t stand a chance and have no control over it; the Gospel can penetrate your Heart no matter what. If you don’t like feeling out of control like this, wait until you hear the rest of the story; the worse is yet to come…

Jesus said that the birds are Satan stealing the Gospel seed from those who don’t understand, lest they believe and be Saved. There is a Spiritual War going on and we’re in the middle of a battle. If you don’t like being out of control regarding the Power of the Gospel, you really shouldn’t like having no control over Satan taking away your best chance in life! What you need is Understanding; let me help you. ~ Have you ever Lied? What name do you call a person if they tell Lies? Have you ever stolen something? What name do you call someone that steals? Are you beginning to understand? Jesus said that Hatred is Murder in the Heart, certainly a hard Heart has hated; right? Have you ever hated anyone? These are only three of the Ten Commandments, shall we go on? If God judged you by this standard would you be innocent or guilty? If you understand, you’d be guilty. Does this bother you?? God sends guilty Sinners to an eternal Hell; but you don’t have to go. You can hang up a scarecrow to keep the birds away…

Jesus was hung on a Cross like a scarecrow. The reason for this was so that he could receive the Wrath of God for Sins he never committed. Jesus lived his whole life and never Sinned by breaking any of God’s Laws. This made him like a spotless lamb whose fleece is white as snow. Jesus gladly gave up his life and shed his blood so that we wouldn’t have to go through this as punishment for our Sins. He died and was buried in a borrowed tomb, but rose from the dead after three calendar days. He conquered death and the grave, and after forty days he ascended to Heaven where he awaits the day he’ll bring us to himself. We’re Saved by Grace through Faith in Jesus as our Risen Lord and Savior, without our tilling the ground. Repent and go to a Church that teaches the Gospel and the Bible. ~ Alfred Hitchcock made a horror film called ‘The Birds’. Nature began to turn on Mankind and the fowls of the air started to attack. No eye or ear was safe from them and many would lose their lives. Stay close to Jesus and you will be safe...

Matthew 13:18 KJV; But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Gal 1:6, I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7, Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

I don't see anything wrong with your tract; but that doesn't mean that there isn't something inherent in your theology, that, if added, wouldn't make your tract another gospel, which is not another, but rather a perversion of the gospel of Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

What I would say about it is that any of the first three types of soil can be cultivated and made into soil type #4, with a little bit of work.

 

[Arial]

Romans 9:25-26, they were not His people but are now His people.

Do you just ignore what others say as though they have no value? You have had that explained to you through exegesis according to scripture and yet you choose to disregard it.

What? they were not His people from before the foundations of the world?

If you refer to the Gentiles, they were not His people when His covenant with Israel, a covenant of law, was in effect. It was those covenant people that God spoke these words to through His prophet. Paul brings it into its application of the prophecy fulfilled in Christ for the Gentiles as well as the Jews.

It indicates that they cross over from death to life at a specific point in their lifetime.

All of the Gentiles? Or those God brings to life? Is life and death in the hands of man or God? If life and death are in His hands, that means any life, be it physical or spiritual.