The god of Calvinism's arbitrary decision.

[makesends]

1Jo 2:2, And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Here, if "the whole world" is speaking merely of the elect, then whose sins are "our sins"?

Notice the subject of the sentence: "HE is the propitiation". Properly following then, the meaning of, "also for the sins of the whole world" refers to the fact that HE is the propitiation; thus it is saying that there is no other propitiation for anyone.

You are changing the subject to "the sins of the whole world", which it is not. But even if it was, in the larger context and in John's frame of mind, "the whole world" does not always mean "everyone who was ever born (or conceived)", but rather, "not just the Jews but the Gentiles."

In other words, to think that it must necessarily mean that absolutely every sin of everybody born has been atoned, is bad hermeneutics.

 

[makesends]

So, you are saying that one cannot come to Christ unless he is of the elect.

Correct. They cannot. You finally got something right.

And I'm not saying that they cannot think they are coming to Christ, and I'm not saying that they are not thinking themselves to even be submitting ...er yielding, their life and will to Christ. I'm saying that the only way that submission is real, has nothing to do with what they think they are doing, or what they are feeling. It has to do with the will of God, and the work of the Spirit of God in them, producing salvific faith.

It remains that the person hearing the doctrines of Calvinism can easily make the conclusion that they may not be of the elect and that therefore it may be impossible for them to be saved.

The case has been made that if you want to know that you are of the elect, then receive Christ; and you will find that you are of the elect.

However, the very same thing has been rejected by some Calvinists.

It is to them that I present this issue.

Strawman. Again, you are presenting what you think them to imply by what they believe. That is not what they believe, or to put it another way, that is not Calvinism.

My question being, do you believe that, if someone is not of the elect, that God will close the door on them in their attempt to believe in, receive, and follow Christ?

My contention is that the door of salvation is open to everyone.

It certainly is open, in the sense that IF THEY WERE TO CHOOSE GOD, then God would save them. But they will not. Not even one will choose God; they will all reject God. EVEN THOSE WHO THINK THEMSELVES TO BE ACCEPTING HIM, if he did not give them the gift of the Spirit of God, THEY COULD NOT GENERATE SALVIFIC FAITH.

That Christ died for everyone (1 John 2:2) and that therefore no one who receives Him will be cast away for any reason.

Nobody who receives Him will be cast away for any reason. That is agreed. And make a wild guess whether that is an alive or a dead thing.

I do believe that Calvinism, at least in some circles, presents the idea that if someone is not of the elect, they cannot be saved.

They cannot, because they will not. They will not because they have not been made alive. They that have the mind of the flesh cannot please God (Romans 8:8). They are at enmity with God.

I just want to make sure that everyone knows that if anyone comes to Christ in repentance, they shall be saved.

Because I think that certain doctrines in Calvinism confuse the issue to a very great extent.

The issue is confused by the mind of self-determinism. The notion that it is the act or deed or work or decision or whatever else one may come up with, and not the work of God, ENTIRELY OF GRACE, is what confuses. Calvinism doesn't claim we don't decide, repent, obey, seek God, pursue Christ, discipline ourselves, and so on. It only claims that the dead are made alive by God alone, and I will claim, as will many Arminianistic (as to soteriology) believers also claim, that even the subsequent virtues are in fact also the work of Spirit of God within.

The question that the one wanting to belong to Christ is presented with is not, "Am I of the Elect?" —it is, rather, the same as for every day and every temptation and every conviction and every challenge and every joy: "Do I give him myself unreservedly?" "Do I love God?", "Is my life His?", and such. The question is not, "What am I deciding today?", but, rather, "Who is running this show from now on?"

 

[makesends]

But the Calvinist teaches that salvation is not in any way dependent on the choice of the individual.

If a person receiving Christ cannot be cast out, then his choice in the matter bears weight in the matter of whether he is saved.

God cannot reject him over him not being of the elect.

God can do whatever he pleases. Don't try to submit God to your rules.

Ok, to be fair, I don't really think you are trying to do that; my point is that GOD is the one upon whom all depends, and not man nor man's decision.

You are correct that the Calvinist teaches that one's salvation is not dependent on the choice of the individual. The Bible says the same. It by GRACE alone, through faith alone (Eph. 2:8). GRACE means, per the emphasis of Eph 2:9, NOT OF MAN. And by the same passage, the faith is also the gift of God and not a work of man.

THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE DON'T CHOOSE CHRIST —very much to the contrary— Calvinism insists that we WILL choose Christ, if he has raised us to life!

Therefore, if I choose Christ, am I not of the elect?

How then is my salvation not dependent, at least to some degree, on the choice that I have made?

Cause-and-effect. Which is the logical first? I don't mean, which comes first. I mean, which causes the other? Consider the phrase, "We do so because it is so." Consider, "...it is God who works in you both to will and to do, of HIS good pleasure." (my caps).

Another logical reason: Regeneration, which necessarily precedes and causes the "alive" ability to love and desire God, also causes the faith by which one believes. Thus, it is not by the work of choosing, but by the work of God, that one believes. The Salvation is contingent on that belief, not on the submission, nor even on the repentance, that necessarily follows that rebirth, even though they both happen, and continue throughout the life of the regenerated.

 

[ReverendRV]

Gal 1:6, I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7, Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

I don't see anything wrong with your tract; but that doesn't mean that there isn't something inherent in your theology, that, if added, wouldn't make your tract another gospel, which is not another, but rather a perversion of the gospel of Christ.

Would you say that the Good News is moot without the Bad News? The Bad News is not the Gospel, but is true none the less; right?

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

This Verse is true, though it includes the Bad News, right?

 

[Arial]

So, you are saying that one cannot come to Christ unless he is of the elect.

The non elect do not even want to come to Christ. It is not as though they want to and are refused.

It remains that the person hearing the doctrines of Calvinism can easily make the conclusion that they may not be of the elect and that therefore it may be impossible for them to be saved.

Why would an unsaved person be reading the doctrines of Calvinism? It is the redeemed and those who claim they are who have a problem with it. I am not saying this about you or anyone, but you do realize that it is possible for a person to think they are saved because they made the right choice and said the right prayer, and that alone is what they base their salvation on, rather than in what they believe in their heart? So when you lay the above accusation on Calvinism, free will is not exempt from a similar accusation.

Here is another thing to consider, this idea of free will being rampant in the church, and its result of altar calls that often contain no content of who Jesus is or what He did, therefore no one can be choosing Him because they don't even know who He is; this is recent, since the days of Charles Finney in the mid to late 1800's. Altar calls and choice did not used to exist in the church. People actually heard the word preached, and predominantly by Calvinist in the days of the Puritans, and out of the Reformation, and they either believed what they heard concerning Jesus or they did not. And countless men and women were saved as they grew up hearing the word and believed it. The method of preaching and what was preached kept none of the elect out of the kingdom.

With a Calvinist they are not concerned with having to sacrifice the truth in order to get more saved. They do not think it is their words that save anyone, but God who does this. It is the truth that matters, and the focus is not on the process of salvation, but on the person and work of Jesus and who God is as self revealed. And no one is saved but by hearing the gospel and believing the gospel, so it is the gospel that must be preached. It is the God who reveals Himself to us in His word who must be presented. If it is not this God and not this Gospel, no one will be hearing of this God and this Gospel and have nothing to believe that will save.

It is not our choice that we should be looking at to determine whether we are saved or not. It is what we believe that must be examined.

 

[Arial]

The case has been made that if you want to know that you are of the elect, then receive Christ; and you will find that you are of the elect.

That is not the case that was made. It is not about receiving Him. That is your doctrine not the doctrine of Calvinism. It is about believing Him. Believing that He is who He says He is, and while He was incarnate and doing the work of salvation for all who would believe, did exactly what He says He did. So the case made was if you do believe these things in your heart and your mind, it is because you are of the elect. If your weren't of the elect, you wouldn't believe it.

However, the very same thing has been rejected by some Calvinists.

What same thing? You have not presented a "same thing." And who are these some Calvinists? Bring them forward as witnesses to what you declare of them, that they may agree or defend themselves. Otherwise there is no meaning in what you say.

My question being, do you believe that, if someone is not of the elect, that God will close the door on them in their attempt to believe in, receive, and follow Christ?

Those not of the elect will never attempt to believe (a nonsensical statement as we never attempt to believe anything. We have no desire to attempt to believe what we do not believe)in Christ or receive Him or follow Him. The sheep (those the Father gives Him) hear His voice and follow Him.He is a stranger to those who are not His sheep, and they will not follow Him.

My contention is that the door of salvation is open to everyone.

Many are called----(have the gospel content available. It is not hidden)---but few are chosen. The door is open, the elect go through it, the non elect don't want to go through it.

That Christ died for everyone (1 John 2:2) and that therefore no one who receives Him will be cast away for any reason.

No one who believes Him will be cast away for any reason. If Jesus made propitiation for everyone (1 John 2:2) then all would be reconciled to God regardless of whether they believed or not. You cannot add the caveat of "propitiation for everyone but only for those who receive Him") to what is not there in order to make it mean what you want it to mean or what you already believe. Confirmation bias.

I do believe that Calvinism, at least in some circles, presents the idea that if someone is not of the elect, they cannot be saved.

They will not be saved nor to they want to be saved. "Saved from what?" would be their scoffing response.

I just want to make sure that everyone knows that if anyone comes to Christ in repentance, they shall be saved.

Because I think that certain doctrines in Calvinism confuse the issue to a very great extent.

If anyone believes in Christ they will be saved. Many actually do believe in Christ even though they thought they were saved because they chose Him, rather than He chose them.

You are confused by them and have given plenty of evidence that one of the reasons for the confusion is the way in which you interpret those doctrines incorrectly. You blame the doctrine for you perceptions of it. The truth of the matter is you cannot justify certain aspects of the self revealed God with your ideas of justice, fair play, and love. And so you ignore that, and attack the doctrines that do not ignore it.

 

[atpollard]

That is not the case that was made. It is not about receiving Him. That is your doctrine not the doctrine of Calvinism. It is about believing Him. Believing that He is who He says He is, and while He was incarnate and doing the work of salvation for all who would believe, did exactly what He says He did. So the case made was if you do believe these things in your heart and your mind, it is because you are of the elect. If your weren't of the elect, you wouldn't believe it.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner!!
[Sometimes a "like" is just not enough.]

 

[Arial]

Winner, winner, chicken dinner!!
[Sometimes a "like" is just not enough.]

Thanks. Good to know that at least sometimes I hit the nail on the head. All glory to God.

 

[ReverendRV]

The Edenic Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant are the same Covenant of Works; perhaps there were Ten Apples on the Tree of Knowledge to break. Jesus Kept the Edenic Covenant by keeping the Mosaic Covenant...

There are two Heads of the Covenant of Works; IE the Edenic and Mosaic Covenants, as seen in Romans 5. Adam is the Head of the Edenic Covenant of Works, and Jesus is the Head of the Mosaic Covenant of Works; one Covenant of Works, but with two Heads. A good example for this are the famous three rivers. There's the Allegheny, the Monongahela, and these two rivers meet to form the one Ohio River. Something similar happens with the Covenant of Works. Without the Allegheny meeting the Monongahela, there would be no Ohio River; the Monongahela River would be flowing where the Ohio River basin is. Therefore, without Christ Keeping the Mosaic Covenant of Works, the Edenic Covenant of Works would always and only flow through the Sea of All Mankind. But since Jesus Kept the 'Limited to Israel' Covenant of Moses, and there's only one Covenant of Works; he Kept the Edenic Covenant too, and thus is the Second Adam of the Edenic Covenant. The Edenic Covenant had no Atonement in it; the first Commandment with a positive Promise, came in the Middle of the Mosaic Covenant. The Edenic Covenant only had a negative Promise; that Adam/Man SHALL die. As the Second Adam, he is the Propitiation for the World. As a Prophet like Moses, he is the Savior of Israel. As a Gentile can enter into the Covenant of Moses, anyone in the Edenic Covenant can enter into the New Covenant that Jesus ratified in the Heavenly Holy of Hollies with his Blood...

 

[justbyfaith]

Do you just ignore what others say as though they have no value? You have had that explained to you through exegesis according to scripture and yet you choose to disregard it.

Not adequately.

If you refer to the Gentiles, they were not His people when His covenant with Israel, a covenant of law, was in effect. It was those covenant people that God spoke these words to through His prophet. Paul brings it into its application of the prophecy fulfilled in Christ for the Gentiles as well as the Jews.

No matter who it is speaking of (and it does refer to Jews (Hosea 1:10-11), it is saying that there are those who were not His people who are now His people.

Which indicates that there is a point in time in which they crossed over from death to life.

All of the Gentiles? Or those God brings to life? Is life and death in the hands of man or God? If life and death are in His hands, that means any life, be it physical or spiritual.

God places our lives in our hands; for He tells us to save ourselves in Acts 2:41.

He has done what it takes to procure salvation for us and then He has thrown the ball in our court.

We must choose to receive, believe in, and follow Christ in order to be saved.

 

[justbyfaith]

Notice the subject of the sentence: "HE is the propitiation". Properly following then, the meaning of, "also for the sins of the whole world" refers to the fact that HE is the propitiation; thus it is saying that there is no other propitiation for anyone.

You are changing the subject to "the sins of the whole world", which it is not. But even if it was, in the larger context and in John's frame of mind, "the whole world" does not always mean "everyone who was ever born (or conceived)", but rather, "not just the Jews but the Gentiles."

In other words, to think that it must necessarily mean that absolutely every sin of everybody born has been atoned, is bad hermeneutics.

Nope.

 

[justbyfaith]

It seems to me that there is an idea brewing here...

That someone might come to Christ, believing in Him and following Him, but that it might be all of the flesh and therefore would be to no avail for the believer.

I will say again that the thief cometh not but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy (John 10:10).

And that this concept in Calvinism is conducive to a person doubting their salvation and also to satan stealing the love of the Lord from a person's heart.

Because, I love Jesus because He saved me from hell.

But I am told here that He may not have saved me because my faith might have been carnal.

So, the possibility that I am not of the elect is not conducive to assurance of salvation.

Nevertheless, the scripture says,

1Th 1:5, For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

I will say again that we love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19).

But you are preaching that maybe He didn't love some of us.

How is that conducive to us falling in love with Jesus?

Someone here has said that if my faith is carnal, it will not save me; and that therefore one might have faith that is not unto salvation.

But if only a faith that is not carnal will save, then there is something meritorious about that faith.

And if one might have a faith that is not unto salvation, how can one have real assurance of salvation?

I believe that the Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God; though initially, my faith may have indeed been based in a sinful instinct of self-preservation.

But because of that, my faith is not meritorious.

I feel that some of you are judging my salvation because I have shown that my initial faith was not meritorious.

But my assurance is based in the word of the Lord.

I know that I know that I know that I am saved; because I have done what is prescribed for salvation in Hosea 14:2, Romans 10:9-13, and Acts 2:38-39.

In the last thing, the Holy Ghost is absolutely promised to those who fulfill the condition of the promise; and so is remission of sins.

There is no possibility of it being a carnal faith; because it is faith in an absolute promise of holy scripture.

However, the initial reasoning, in obtaining that promise (by fulfilling its condition), might be considered to be a carnal faith (based in a sinful instinct of self-preservation).

Nevertheless, God keeps His promises and is trustworthy (for it is impossible for God to lie).

So, even if someone wants to cast disparity on my salvation by saying that it was not valid for that it was not meritorious,

I know whom I have believed and am convinced that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him against that day.

I stand on the word of the Lord and I base my salvation what it teaches.

I have not only confessed with my mouth Jesus as Lord, believing in my heart that God hath raised Him from the dead; and not only have I called on the name of the Lord; but I have been baptized in His Name.

Therefore, based on the promise of Acts 2:38-39, I know that I know that I know that I have been given remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I have an unction from the Holy One (1 John 2:20) and do know all things according to the definition of that in the verse.

 

[Arial]

Not adequately.

Not adequately and not liked are not the same thing. No doubt you found it inadequate on the basis of it disagreed with what you believe and nothing else.

No matter who it is speaking of (and it does refer to Jews (Hosea 1:10-11), it is saying that there are those who were not His people who are now His people.

Which indicates that there is a point in time in which they crossed over from death to life.

On what basis though? Remember this is in Paul's conversation about God's sovereignty. So you did not answer my question. Which is, does it refer to those God brought to life?

God places our lives in our hands; for He tells us to save ourselves in Acts 2:41.

Do you think you will live one second if God removes your life? It is in Him that we LIVE, and MOVE, and have our BEING.
Job 33:4; Ps 139:13-16; Gen 2:7; Ps 100:3; John 14:6

What does received the word mean?

He has done what it takes to procure salvation for us and then He has thrown the ball in our court.

That is a really warped depiction of God.

We must choose to receive, believe in, and follow Christ in order to be saved.

I am wondering how a person can choose to receive and believe something? Do you have to talk yourself into believing something you don't believe?

 

[justbyfaith]

I am wondering how a person can choose to receive and believe something? Do you have to talk yourself into believing something you don't believe?

One might understand that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17) and then choose to cultivate faith by exposing one's self to the word.

One might be motivated to do that because he understands that faith is needed if one is going to avoid eternal flames.

 

[ReverendRV]

One might understand that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17) and then choose to cultivate faith by exposing one's self to the word.

One might be motivated to do that because he understands that faith is needed if one is going to avoid eternal flames.

The Gospel is the Power of God unto Salvation...

Should this be a Sola?


Yes...

 

[Arial]

And that this concept in Calvinism is conducive to a person doubting their salvation and also to satan stealing the love of the Lord from a person's heart.

Why would you doubt whether you believe or not? If you are in Christ through faith no one can steal the love of the Lord from their heart. Remember what Jesus said. "I will lose none that the Father gives me." Remember what Paul said in Romans 8:31-39. And note in there that it is nothing can separate us from the love Christ has for us. The only reason we do love Him is because He first loved us. Just because He did. And the only reason we love HIm is because He first loved us. If it is causing you to doubt your salvation, I apologize. But the thing to do would be to press in to what you believe about Jesus, not what you believe about you choosing Him. Gain strength from being tested and prevailing by the grace of God.

But I am told here that He may not have saved me because my faith might have been carnal.

So, the possibility that I am not of the elect is not conducive to assurance of salvation.

That is not what you have been told here. DO YOU BELIEVE Jesus is the Son of God, that He came from God as one of us? That He completed perfect righteousness? That He laid down His life on the cross, substituting Himself for the sinner, and taking sins just punishment that the deserve in their stead? That in doing this that all who believe in Him are saved from the wrath of God and have eternal life? Their sins are wiped away? And while we are still in the flesh we will sometimes sin, but we repent because we have disobeyed God, and our sins cannot condemn us, since the very righteousness of Christ is counted as ours. He already paid for our sins. They already met their punishment in Him. That He was raised to life and returned to the Father, and therefore when our flesh dies, we go to be with Him, and in due time our bodies will be resurrected just as He was, and it will be raised incorruptible. Do you believe these things? Then what are you worried about.You aren't condemned because you think it was your choice that saved you. That is not a salvational issue.

But you are preaching that maybe He didn't love some of us.

How is that conducive to us falling in love with Jesus?

He loved all who believe but not because they believe. They believe because He loved them and saved them. Shouldn't you love Jesus because of who He is, and not because of what you do?

Someone here has said that if my faith is carnal, it will not save me; and that therefore one might have faith that is not unto salvation.

A lot of people have been communicating to you. And we have no way of knowing is this "someone" falls into the same unverified "some" that you attribute Calvinist views to that are not in Calvinism. Also, you have so frequently shown that you mistate what people are saying, to keep this in your post and not have it edited, you will need to produce a quote of this someone saying this and attributing to your case.

But if only a faith that is not carnal will save, then there is something meritorious about that faith.

There is no such thing as carnal faith. It wouldn't be faith.

And if one might have a faith that is not unto salvation, how can one have real assurance of salvation?

By what you BELIEVE!

I feel that some of you are judging my salvation because I have shown that my initial faith was not meritorious.

No one has judged your salvation and you have not shown that your faith was not meritorious because you still insist that it was of you and not of God. You still say God saved you because of what you did. But thinking that does not make the faith you have of no effect to save.

I know that I know that I know that I am saved; because I have done what is prescribed for salvation in Hosea 14:2, Romans 10:9-13, and Acts 2:38-39.

You did those things because you were saved not to be saved. That should increase your assurance. And what is a greater assurance than to know your salvation was of God, and not yourself?

So, even if someone wants to cast disparity on my salvation by saying that it was not valid for that it was not meritorious,

No one has done so. You have done that to yourself by refusing to listen to what is being said, distorting what is said, condemning what is said, and now those who have said it.

 

[justbyfaith]

Why would you doubt whether you believe or not? If you are in Christ through faith no one can steal the love of the Lord from their heart.

Right. No one can steal this love away because I don't believe in Calvinism.

If I did, there would be a significant reason to doubt my salvation and thus the love of the Lord towards me.

I love Him because He first loved me.

If I believed that the Lord did not choose me, even though I chose Him, I would be angry with Him and would cry out for eternity from hell that His decision to condemn me was unjust and that He is going to have to live with that knowledge for all of eternity.

Of course He chose me because He looked down the annals of history and saw that I would choose Him (Romans 8:29, 1 Peter 1:2).

If it is causing you to doubt your salvation, I apologize.

It does not cause me to doubt my salvation.

It would if I actually believed in Calvinism; but since I don't, my assurance remains intact.

That is not what you have been told here. DO YOU BELIEVE Jesus is the Son of God, that He came from God as one of us? That He completed perfect righteousness? That He laid down His life on the cross, substituting Himself for the sinner, and taking sins just punishment that the deserve in their stead? That in doing this that all who believe in Him are saved from the wrath of God and have eternal life? Their sins are wiped away? And while we are still in the flesh we will sometimes sin, but we repent because we have disobeyed God, and our sins cannot condemn us, since the very righteousness of Christ is counted as ours. He already paid for our sins. They already met their punishment in Him. That He was raised to life and returned to the Father, and therefore when our flesh dies, we go to be with Him, and in due time our bodies will be resurrected just as He was, and it will be raised incorruptible. Do you believe these things?

I believe all of those things; but am told that if this belief is rooted in the flesh, it will avail for me nothing.

Then what are you worried about.You aren't condemned because you think it was your choice that saved you. That is not a salvational issue.

Glad to hear it. But I would say that if you believe that it is not your choice that saves you, it may be a salvational issue. Because you may not do what is necessary to procure salvation.

He loved all who believe but not because they believe.

This is true because God is love and He loves everyone...He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance...and this is not conditioned on them believing or being of the elect.

However, He does save people because they believe and does not save them before they believe.

A lot of people have been communicating to you. And we have no way of knowing is this "someone" falls into the same unverified "some" that you attribute Calvinist views to that are not in Calvinism.

The person is clearly one of the same people that have been crying that I have presented a straw man argument in that sense.

Also, you have so frequently shown that you mistate what people are saying, to keep this in your post and not have it edited, you will need to produce a quote of this someone saying this and attributing to your case.

The record is in this thread; and I am going to be lazy here and just say, go ahead and edit my post. That's on you. God will hold you accountable for deleting the words of the Holy Spirit.

There is no such thing as carnal faith. It wouldn't be faith.

That is not what one person was saying on here. They may not have used the words "carnal faith"...but that is what they were referring to when they said that if it is of the flesh it will not avail to save anyone.

No one has judged your salvation and you have not shown that your faith was meritorious

Right...I have shown that my faith was not meritorious.

You did those things because you were saved not to be saved.

If that is the case, then I did not need to do those things; for I was saved apart from them.

Do you see how the doctrine of Calvinism is conducive to a person not doing what it takes to procure salvation?

No one has done so.

Someone has done so; and it is in the record of this thread

 

[justbyfaith]

EVEN THOSE WHO THINK THEMSELVES TO BE ACCEPTING HIM, if he did not give them the gift of the Spirit of God, THEY COULD NOT GENERATE SALVIFIC FAITH.

 

[justbyfaith]

And I'm not saying that they cannot think they are coming to Christ, and I'm not saying that they are not thinking themselves to even be submitting ...er yielding, their life and will to Christ. I'm saying that the only way that submission is real, has nothing to do with what they think they are doing, or what they are feeling. It has to do with the will of God, and the work of the Spirit of God in them, producing salvific faith.

 

[justbyfaith]

Faith comes before grace in salvation according to Romans 5:2 and Ephesians 2:8-9.