The disparity (disunity) in Calvinism

[justbyfaith]

How God becomes the root cause of their rejection is beyond explanation.

He is the root cause in that He does not choose them and therefore He chooses them for condemnation by default.

If He didn't choose them because they didn't choose Him, it would be a different story. Then they would be responsible.

But since it is entirely based on God's predetermination and has nothing to do with the sinner (except that you say that it is their sin that God condemns them for); therefore God is entirely responsible for their condemnation.

But if it is their sin that condemns them, then their condemnation, at least, is based on merit (or the lack thereof).

 

[justbyfaith]

You have stated in all these threads that your purpose is to preach the gospel. And yet you have not once preached it. So let's try that for a change. Who is Jesus? Do not simply quote a Bible verse. In your own words, who is He?

I believe that I answer the question adequately here:

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/coexistent-modalism-the-true-trinity.206/

But the gospel is more than just who Jesus is.

It is that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, believing in your heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved (Romans 10:9).

This flies in the face of Calvinism which teaches that regeneration precedes faith (and that therefore faith isn't necessary for salvation; since a person can be saved before they have faith and therefore without faith).

 

[justbyfaith]

This flies in the face of Calvinism which teaches that regeneration precedes faith (and that therefore faith isn't necessary for salvation; since a person can be saved before they have faith and therefore without faith).

in Calvinism.

 

[justbyfaith]

I like bold italic for scripture, like this:

Matthew 6:33 [NKJV] "But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."

[control] b [control] i ... on the keyboard (which makes it fast)

I like to put Jesus' words in bold red.

 

[justbyfaith]

Nowhere in the entire Bible does scripture ever state we are saved by faith.

It does. It says that we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:2).

 

[justbyfaith]

Ignorant and enslaved dead people cannot be responsible. It is the reason they are in need of salvation.

So, in being saved we become responsible to receive Christ?

I would agree if you conflate "being drawn" with "being regenerated".

Because in being drawn, every man becomes responsible to receive Christ.

Of course, being drawn is not the same thing as being regenerated and also does not guarantee the latter.

 

[justbyfaith]

Ignorant and enslaved dead people cannot be responsible. It is the reason they are in need of salvation.

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 8:5-8
For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind of flesh is death, but the mind of Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

The mind of flesh cannot please God. Since choosing Jesus would please God, that option is precluded. You've based your entire salvation on something that does not exist, giving yourself credit for your choices when no such ability existed until it was given to you and given to you for that very purpose. Then to further exacerbate that nonsensical soteriology, you see fit to rag on other who read scripture exactly as written. A dead, enslaved, ignorant person must have the Spirit.

Of course a person is enabled to receive Christ (inability is overcome) when the same is drawn to Christ.

This is not the same thing as being regenerated.

Don't presume that because you were at one time drawn to Christ, that you are now regenerated.

In order for that to occur, you must needs have received Jesus as your Lord and Saviour from sin.

 

[justbyfaith]

2Co 6:1, We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2Co 6:2, (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

 

[Arial]

I believe that I answer the question adequately here:

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/coexistent-modalism-the-true-trinity.206/

No you did not. I ask a simple question in order to begin the preaching of the gospel. It's starting point must be who is Jesus. So tell me who He is, right here, in this thread and in your own words. If someone were to ask you who is Jesus, what would you say? If you were going to preach the gospel of salvation, who would you say Jesus is? The answer should be on the tip of your tongue, and joy overflowing to answer that question.

But the gospel is more than just who Jesus is.

It has to start there. So start.

It is that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, believing in your heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved (Romans 10:9).

Did I not give a specific request to not just quote a scripture but tell me in your own words who Jesus is? And that passage does not tell us who He is other than the Son of God, but does not tell us what that means. You tell us. Paul is writing to those who do know who He is, not telling the unregenerate how to regenerate themselves.

This flies in the face of Calvinism which teaches that regeneration precedes faith (and that therefore faith isn't necessary for salvation; since a person can be saved before they have faith and therefore without faith).

Calvinism does not teach that faith is not necessary for salvation or that they are saved before they have faith, so no Romans 10:9 does not fly in the face of Calvinism. But the issue here that you are avoiding is your answer to the question in your own words, "Who is Jesus?" If you do not have your own words it suggests that actual belief in what it is necessary to believe, is absent.

 

[Arial]

He is the root cause in that He does not choose them and therefore He chooses them for condemnation by default.

Shocking News!! There is no default in the economy of God. You are simply using your words to cast defamation on God if He does not align with your definition of Him (which personally I am coming to the conclusion you have none derived from the Bible. He doesn't seem to come into the picture at all in your presuppositions.) He doesn't choose them for condemnation. He leaves them there. Those He chooses to give to His Son, He elects before the Son ever arrives in the incarnation as Jesus, before even the foundation of the world, to be given to Him and brings them to Him. God says this in many place and in many ways, and Jesus confirms it, and Jesus died for them. You are shaking your fist at God for having mercy on whom He has mercy and compassion on whom He has compassion. It will get you nowhere. He won't change who He is or what He does to placate your earthbound sensibilities.

If He didn't choose them because they didn't choose Him, it would be a different story. Then they would be responsible.

They are responsible either way. Did God do the sinning? If He didn't choose them because they didn't choose Him would be a different story IN YOUR MIND. We, every last one of us ever born are responsible to God. We, as His creatures, made in His image and likeness, are responsible to HIM. Responsible to trust Him, responsible to believe Him. responsible to reflect Him, responsible to obey Him. Choosing has nothing to do with it. We are not responsible to choose. Actually address that this time.

But since it is entirely based on God's predetermination and has nothing to do with the sinner (except that you say that it is their sin that God condemns them for); therefore God is entirely responsible for their condemnation.

That is ridiculous. I am amazed that you cannot see it. Here is another question I would like you to answer. Who is God? In your own words, without the crutch of merely quoting scriptures. And after that, answer the question, Who is man in relation to God?

But if it is their sin that condemns them, then their condemnation, at least, is based on merit (or the lack thereof).

Hence the statement, some get justice and others receive mercy, because for them Jesus satisfied the justice on the cross.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

2Co 6:1, We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2Co 6:2, (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Hello sir/madam, I am curious to know whether you believe that God was calling and drawing you in your life and if you resisted Him before you chose to accept Him? If that is the case, could you explain please how that happened? Thank you

 

[David1701]

It does. It says that we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:2).

Oh good grief!!

We (i.e. born again Christians) have access, by means of faith, into this grace in which we already stand. This is absolutely nothing to do with the lost, allegedly, being saved by faith.

I strongly recommend you to get a grasp of the basics, before you try to discuss anything with experienced Christians, because the evidence shows that you are completely clueless.

 

[Josheb]

Of course a person is enabled to receive Christ (inability is overcome) when the same is drawn to Christ.

Yep

This is not the same thing as being regenerated.

No one said it was.

Don't presume that because you were at one time drawn to Christ, that you are now regenerated.

Never said anything of the sort.

In order for that to occur, you must needs have received Jesus as your Lord and Saviour from sin.

Think about what you just said because, once again, you're arguing Calvinism. Regeneration precedes faith. God chooses a person monergistically. God calls the person monergistically. God hauls that person to Christ monergistically. Both Calvin and Arminius agree, apart from God no one can do anything of any salvific good. Salvation by grace through faith is the gift of God, not of ourselves and not by works. We are created in Christ for good works God had already planned for us to perform before He ever saved us.

Those who have received Jesus as Lord and Savior can and do believe. They believe because they have been saved, freed from the slavery and death of sin and made slaves of righteousness, bondservants of Christ and heirs with him because Jesus and Jesus alone was the only man who has ever been ever-faithful to God.

But you think it is because of the faculties of sinful flesh that you were saved.

While somehow also thinking,

In order for that to occur, you must needs have received Jesus as your Lord and Saviour from sin.

The disparity and disunity is not in Calvinism.

 

[justbyfaith]

You are shaking your fist at God

No; I am head over heels in love with the Jesus of the Bible (2 Corinthians 11:3-4, Galatians 1:6-9).

I know that He is love (1 John 4:8,16) and that He is not willing that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9, 1 Timothy 2:4) but that all should come to repentance, without exception.

Because 2 Peter 3:9 is clearly speaking of those who need repentance; and that is every sinner.

 

[justbyfaith]

They are responsible either way. Did God do the sinning?

He is ultimately responsible for their sin because He created them in such a manner that they could not do anything else; and then gave them no choice in the matter of whether or not they can repent. Because in Calvinism, the non-elect cannot make any other choice than to keep their sin.

 

[justbyfaith]

We are not responsible to choose. Actually address that this time.

I will address it by saying that we are responsible to choose;

And that your denial of this is very likely rooted in a desire to shirk that responsibility.

 

[justbyfaith]

Who is God?

I think that you will have to read your Bible for many decades if you want to find the answer to that question.

 

[justbyfaith]

Hello sir/madam, I am curious to know whether you believe that God was calling and drawing you in your life and if you resisted Him before you chose to accept Him? If that is the case, could you explain please how that happened? Thank you

Certainly.

I ran from God because of what is written in 2 Peter 2:18-22; fearful that I would fall away and that my coming to God might avail for nothing.

When Billy Graham gave a message saying that I would be losing out on reward if I delayed to make a decision for Christ, it was a factor in my coming to Christ not many days later.

I have given my testimony in the testimony section of these boards.

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/my-testimony-justbyfaith.204/

 

[justbyfaith]

We (i.e. born again Christians) have access, by means of faith, into this grace in which we already stand.

We gained access into this grace by faith.

Faith was the key to the door (Jesus being the door).

We were once outside of grace.

We gained access into it by our faith.

 

[justbyfaith]

No one said it was.

Other Calvinists have over the time that I have talked with every one of them.