The disparity (disunity) in Calvinism

[Josheb]

Not sure how I am responsible to receive Christ; it happened to me. I do understand I am responsible to continue to submit to Christ, to love the Lord my God with all my heart, to obey him, to walk in fellowship with him, to pursue him and to not quench the Spirit of God who lives in me. And I understand that I will be held accountable for every idle word I speak and that if I reject Christ I will be held accountable. Maybe this is what he means, by "responsible to receive Christ": I am indeed responsible to open the door when he knocks.

And I'm not even a Calvinist, except by reputation. But I suppose they resemble me enough....so, ok.


What is interesting to me is that @justbyfaith doesn't seem to realize how much of what he believes is as a result of the Reformation.

Duly noted.

 

[David1701]

I will say it to you, too, then.

Since, in basic Calvinism (correct me if I am wrong), God is the One who makes the primary decision, and there is no basis for salvation in our decisions; since, in basic Calvinism, if anyone is not of the elect, they cannot receive Christ because God has not chosen them;

How then can they be justly held responsible for their decision to reject Christ?

Because God rejected them first.

In basic Christianity, there is no basis for salvation is our decisions, since, in basic Christianity, salvation is of the Lord, not of our will or works.

If anyone is not of the elect, then he will reject Christ, because he has a rebellious, light-hating, hostile-to-God nature. He rejects Christ willingly.
No-one forces him to reject Christ, nor prevents him from believing in Christ; this is why he is accountable.

In the case of those whom God chose, before the foundation of the world, for salvation, he gives us a new heart/spirit which immediately willingly repents and believes in Jesus Christ. He pardons us, because the Lord bore our sins and punishments on the cross, when he shed his blood and died for our sins. We are justified (declared righteous) because Jesus rose from the dead for our justification. This pardon (and the fulness of salvation) is given to us through faith in Jesus Christ, which is itself a gift from God.

We were just as rebellious, light-hating and hostile-to-God as other sinners, until God made us born again, giving us repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. Salvation is of the Lord!

 

[Josheb]

How then can they be justly held responsible for their decision to reject Christ?

The problem here is this is a red herring.

You assume responsibility is germane when it is not, and you assume it without ever providing any rationale for the premise.

Earlier I provided an analogy of the drowned man and you disagreed, saying you believe we are only "asleep" and not unconscious to the point of unresponsiveness. The scriptures use the term "dead." We are not asleep in sin, we are dead in sin. We're not just dead in sin but also enslaved to it. The dead people are enslaved. Enslaved dead people. Not asleep.

Scripture also tells us that everyone stands condemned already simple for not having believed in the name of God's Son.

John 3:18
He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So follow the logic of this verse. No one is born believing in Jesus. Since no one is born believing in Jesus they start life in a state of condemnation . I know; it sounds harsh and unjust doesn't it. That is only because you think niceness and justice are germane. They are not, and you will not be able to provide a single verse in scripture stating otherwise. The problem is not solely that everyone is born ignorant of Christ, the problem is exacerbated by the fact everyone is also born dead in sin and enslaved thereof.

• Dead in sin.
• Enslaved to sin.
• Ignorant of Christ.

Logically, it is impossible for a person to choose something or someone that person does not believe exists. Yet you have predicated your entire soteriology on the premise of human responsibility to choose. You believe a person must be responsible to choose but there is no choice for the person whose options are only nonbelief. Nonbelief? Yes, nonbelief. No one is born believing in Jesus. No one is born with the gospel hardwired into their knowledge; it must be learned. That's why the average synergist makes so much of verses like Romans 10:17 (completely ignoring the fact Paul was writing to the saints and not atheists).

Prior to hearing you, me, Arial, makesends, ReverendRV and every other human ever born was dead in sin and already condemned, but you think we're responsible to choose something we do not believe.


If I said you could be saved by the sixteen legged yellow striped and purple polka dotted gerflbenzeeger would you believe? No? Why not? Don't know what a sixteen legged yellow striped and purple polka dotted gerflbenzeeger is? Don't believe a sixteen legged yellow striped and purple polka dotted gerflbenzeeger exists? How about if I said your one-week old child was condemned simply because s/he did not believe in something s/he does not know, know about, or believe exists? Seem unjust to you?

Then you should understand that is the problem to be solved.

There was a time when no one was dead in sin and no one was enslaved to sin and everyone lived with the tree of life in their midst and could see it and touch it and partake of it whenever they so chose.

What? Did I just use the word "chose"? Yep. A living, not-sinful, not-dead, not enslaved, not ignorant but knowing person who can see, touch, and partake can choose. They can make choices the dead, ignorant slave cannot make.

It has nothing to do with justice but the fact is that dead, ignorant, slave will have the just recompense of his choices meted out upon him because while in the dead, ignorant and enslaved state every single thought and every desire of his heart was only evil all the time. His mind was hostile to God and did not and could not please God. Even though he could see the power of God evident in creation he denied God and gave into his own desires. He could not understand the things of the Spirit, having only his corrupted dead and dying flesh, and all such things are foolishness to him.

But you think he is responsible.

It is our not being able to be responsible from which we have been saved!

Having been brought from death to life then, and only then, can we be response-able. Dead folks just die.

Ephesians 2:4-10
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

• Saved by grace.
• Saved through faith.
• Salvation by grace through faith is a gift from God.
• It is not of ourselves.
• Created in Christ for good works.
• The works were prepared prior to our salvation for us to perform.

Nowhere in the entire Bible does scripture ever state we are saved by faith. Nowhere. And if you do a search for the words "responsible" or "responsibility," you'll find nowhere in scripture does it ever state the unregenerate sinful non-believer is responsible for choosing Jesus. It's not scriptural and it is not logical. Justice has nothing to do with it. What you and I deserve is destruction and it is only by the grace of God that Adam and Eve were allowed to procreate.

So when all the Calvinists agree we are responsible for choosing Christ you should understand 1) we're unanimously in agreement because 2) having been regenerated, brought from death to life and given faith by grace and not of ourselves we are able to be responsible.

Ignorant and enslaved dead people cannot be responsible. It is the reason they are in need of salvation.

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 8:5-8
For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind of flesh is death, but the mind of Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

The mind of flesh cannot please God. Since choosing Jesus would please God, that option is precluded. You've based your entire salvation on something that does not exist, giving yourself credit for your choices when no such ability existed until it was given to you and given to you for that very purpose. Then to further exacerbate that nonsensical soteriology, you see fit to rag on other who read scripture exactly as written. A dead, enslaved, ignorant person must have the Spirit.




And, again, I invite all the Cals present to confirm or affirm this post so @justbyfaith can see the degree of unity.

 

[atpollard]

And, again, I invite all the Cals present to confirm or affirm this post so @justbyfaith can see the degree of unity.

W00T! (consider that an affirmation.)

 

[justbyfaith]

In basic Christianity, there is no basis for salvation is our decisions, since, in basic Christianity, salvation is of the Lord, not of our will or works.

If anyone is not of the elect, then he will reject Christ, because he has a rebellious, light-hating, hostile-to-God nature. He rejects Christ willingly.
No-one forces him to reject Christ, nor prevents him from believing in Christ; this is why he is accountable.

In the case of those whom God chose, before the foundation of the world, for salvation, he gives us a new heart/spirit which immediately willingly repents and believes in Jesus Christ. He pardons us, because the Lord bore our sins and punishments on the cross, when he shed his blood and died for our sins. We are justified (declared righteous) because Jesus rose from the dead for our justification. This pardon (and the fulness of salvation) is given to us through faith in Jesus Christ, which is itself a gift from God.

We were just as rebellious, light-hating and hostile-to-God as other sinners, until God made us born again, giving us repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. Salvation is of the Lord!

However, the non-elect cannot receive Christ because God didn't choose him.

How then can he justly be held accountable for not receiving Christ?

God is ultimately responsible for his rejection of Christ (the root cause of his rejection of Christ is that he is of the non-elect (because God didn't choose him)).

 

[justbyfaith]

The scriptures use the term "dead." We are not asleep in sin, we are dead in sin. We're not just dead in sin but also enslaved to it. The dead people are enslaved. Enslaved dead people. Not asleep.

If we are dead, then the scripture defines us as sleeping (Ephesians 5:14).

 

[justbyfaith]

So follow the logic of this verse. No one is born believing in Jesus. Since no one is born believing in Jesus they start life in a state of condemnation . I know; it sounds harsh and unjust doesn't it. That is only because you think niceness and justice are germane. They are not, and you will not be able to provide a single verse in scripture stating otherwise. The problem is not solely that everyone is born ignorant of Christ, the problem is exacerbated by the fact everyone is also born dead in sin and enslaved thereof.

• Dead in sin.
• Enslaved to sin.
• Ignorant of Christ.

2Co 5:14, For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
2Co 5:15, And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

 

[justbyfaith]

Are the "all who were dead" confined to the elect?

Who then is "the all He died for"?

 

[atpollard]

However, the non-elect cannot receive Christ because God didn't choose him.

How then can he justly be held accountable for not receiving Christ?

God is ultimately responsible for his rejection of Christ (the root cause of his rejection of Christ is that he is of the non-elect (because God didn't choose him)).

Is "rejecting Christ" the reason people are damned, or merely the reason they are "not saved"?

ANALOGY TIME (because analogies are fun):

[Arminiamism] Two men leap off the Brooklyn Bridge into the East River. A passing NYC Fire-Rescue Boat throws each man a life line. One man grabs the life line and is pulled to safety aboard the boat. The other man refuses to grab the life line and drowns. Why did the man drown?

1. because he refused to grab the life line.
2. because he jumped off the bridge.

[Calvinism] Two men leap off the Brooklyn Bridge into the East River. A passing NYC Fire-Rescue Boat sends a rescue diver to recover them from the bottom of the river. One body is pulled aboard the boat and resuscitated. The other man sinks and is forever lost in the murky depths. Why did the man drown?

1. because the diver failed to rescue him.
2. because he jumped off the bridge.

Irrespective of Calvinism or Arminianism (the ability of the man to choose Christ or the choice of God to rescue him), the man that was saved, was saved BECAUSE he was rescued [accepted Christ], and the man that dies was lost BECAUSE of his bad decision [his sin]. There are no "innocent people" in Hell - every one chose to rebel against God (with or without the knowledge of Christ). [Romans 1:18]

 

[Josheb]

However, the non-elect cannot receive Christ because God didn't choose him.

No. You're making a causal relationship where none is asserted. Election is not the cause of salvation. Grace is the cause. Election is one of the products of that grace.

How then can he justly be held accountable for not receiving Christ?

Another strawman. Everyone can be held accountable for not receiving Christ because they are all sinners who have disobeyed God and brought death upon themselves. That sinfulness (both operational and dispositional) prevents one from believing. Sin prevents a person from believing in Jesus, not God. It is part of the problem to be solved.

• Everyone has sinned.
• Everyone has sinned freely; God did not make them sin.
• No one seeks.
• No one believes and no one can believe while in the sinfully dead and enslaved unregenerate state.*
• They will all experience the just consequences of their disobedience unless God acts to save them from that end.
• From among all the dead people who have freely chosen their dead and enslaved stated of disobedience God has saved some so they will not experience that otherwise universal just end.
• Salvation is by grace through faith.
• The salvation that is by grace through faith is a gift. It is not of the sinner and it is not by works.
• The only work involved is God creating a person in Christ, and that work of God is done specifically for works God has already planned for the created-in-Christ person to perform.
• By grace God chooses a person from the sinfully dead slaves.
• By grace God hauls a person to Christ.
• By grace we are born anew from above.
• By grace we are justified.
• By grace we are sanctified.
• By grace we are sealed.
• By grace we are made heirs.
• By grace none that are given to Christ are ever lost.
• By grace we receive Christ.

Only after conversion from death to life do any become collaborative with any of it. The epistolary was written to those already saved.

Matthew 20:1-16
"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard. And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the market place; and to those he said, 'You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.' And so they went. Again, he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour and did the same thing. And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing around; and he said to them, 'Why have you been standing here idle all day long?' They *said to him, 'Because no one hired us.' He *said to them, 'You go into the vineyard too.' When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last group to the first.' When those hired about the eleventh hour came, each one received a denarius. When those hired first came, they thought that they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius. When they received it, they grumbled at the landowner, saying, 'These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.' But he answered and said to one of them, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? ~'Take what is yours and go, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. 'Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?' So, the last shall be first, and the first last."

Those who were not hired did not receive anything. Those who are hired get paid as the Owner wishes, not as the hireling wishes. He is not required to hire anyone. Ever.

God is ultimately responsible for his rejection of Christ (the root cause of his rejection of Christ is that he is of the non-elect (because God didn't choose him)).

No, you've got the argument all screwed up. Calvinism does not teach election is the cause of salvation, and neither does Calvinism teach God made a person reject Christ.

Isaiah 53:1-6
Who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? For he grew up before Him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of parched ground; he has no stately form or majesty that we should look upon him, nor appearance that we should be attracted to him. He was despised and forsaken of men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; and like one from whom men hide their face he was despised, and we did not esteem him. Surely our griefs he himself bore, and our sorrows he carried; yet we ourselves esteemed him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was pierced through for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being fell upon him, and by his scourging we are healed. All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; but the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on him.

Each has turned to his own way. God did not make anyone turn to his own way.

When Jesus died no one believed he would return. They all abandoned him and his teachings. God did not make them do that. It is what humans absent the Spirit do.

Jeremiah 32:33-34
They have turned their back to Me and not their face; though I taught them, teaching again and again, they would not listen and receive instruction. But they put their detestable things in the house which is called by My name, to defile it.

One of the detestable things put into God's house is the idol of self. "I did it! I chose my own salvation!"












*This bullet point is not limited to Calvinism. Arminianism also holds to the human inability do any salvific good. See Arminius' Article VII of Disputation 11: On the Free Will of Man and Its Powers." "In this state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace."
.

 

[Josheb]

If we are dead, then the scripture defines us as sleeping (Ephesians 5:14).

The dead cannot rouse themselves from the dead state. The appeal to Ephesians 5:14 proves the Calvinist position, not synergism. No one awakens themselves from being physically dead. Only God can do that.

Btw, Ephesians 5:14 is a quote from Isaiah 26, and in Isaiah 26 EVERYTHING is attributed to God and nothing is attributed to the will of the unregenerate sinfully dead and enslaved nonbeliever.

Isaiah 26:11-19
O LORD, Your hand is lifted up yet they do not see it. They see Your zeal for the people and are put to shame; Indeed, fire will devour Your enemies. LORD, You will establish peace for us, Since You have also performed for us all our works. O LORD our God, other masters besides You have ruled us; But through You alone we confess Your name. The dead will not live, the departed spirits will not rise; therefore, You have punished and destroyed them, and You have wiped out all remembrance of them............ We were pregnant, we writhed in labor, we gave birth, as it seems, only to wind. We could not accomplish deliverance for the earth, nor were inhabitants of the world born. Your dead will live; their corpses will rise. You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, for your dew is as the dew of the dawn, and the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.

God roused them; they did not rouse themselves. They could not accomplish their own deliverance.






The drowned man analogy still stands. The sinner is unconscious and unable to respond. S/he will die and become nothing if someone other than the unconscious person does not act on his/her behalf to revive them. I will remember to include Eph. 5:14 the next time I use the analogy.

 

[Josheb]

2Co 5:14, For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
2Co 5:15, And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Who is the "us"?

The "us" is the saints, those already regenerated and made alive in Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:1-3
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul was writing to the saints in Corinth. They were the ecclesia of God those called out by God, those who already had Jesus Christ as their Lord. The "us" is not unregenerate sinfully dead and enslaved non-believers.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15
For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and he died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for him who died and rose again on their behalf.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15
For the love of Christ controls [the Church of God, all the saints, those who have Jesus Christ as their Lord], having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and he died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for him who died and rose again on their behalf.


Ironically, the verse explicitly states the love of Christ controls the "us." It does not state we control ourselves. You have got to stop ripping up scripture, selectively using individual verses removed from their stated contexts for your personal agenda and read all of it as written.

 

[justbyfaith]

@Josheb, I am not going to answer your last few posts because you put the scriptures in them, in light blue, and I cannot easily read that.

 

[Josheb]

@Josheb, I am not going to answer your last few posts because you put the scriptures in them, in light blue, and I cannot easily read that.

Bogus.

The address of every scripture quoted is in bold-faced black text so anyone can look them up without having to read the blue text. The verses can be copy and pasted into a new post and all formatting can be removed. If you wanted to "answer" the posts there is a myriad of ways to do so. If you do not want to "answer" a post, then don't but don't blame others for your choices. That's lame.


And the fact remains the "us" of 2 Cor. 2:5 is the us of the saints, not an us of atheists.


Anyone else have trouble with the blue text?

Is red (or whatever color that is) any better?

How about whatever color this is?

This color?

I'm red/green color-blind, so I have trouble distinguishing most reds from greens.

 

[justbyfaith]

Bogus.

The address of every scripture quoted is in bold-faced black text so anyone can look them up without having to read the blue text. The verses can be copy and pasted into a new post and all formatting can be removed. If you wanted to "answer" the posts there is a myriad of ways to do so. If you do not want to "answer" a post, then don't but don't blame others for your choices. That's lame.


And the fact remains the "us" of 2 Cor. 2:5 is the us of the saints, not an us of atheists.


Anyone else have trouble with the blue text?

Is red (or whatever color that is) any better?

How about whatever color this is?

This color?

I'm red/green color-blind, so I have trouble distinguishing most reds from greens.

They are all very faint and I cannot read them very easily. it is not "bogus".

Put your quoting of scripture in black bold like I do.

Emphasize the importance of what you quote as scripture.

 

[atpollard]

I'm red/green color-blind, so I have trouble distinguishing most reds from greens.

Me, too.

 

[atpollard]

Put your quoting of scripture in black bold like I do.

I like bold italic for scripture, like this:

Matthew 6:33 [NKJV] "But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."

[control] b [control] i ... on the keyboard (which makes it fast)

 

[David1701]

However, the non-elect cannot receive Christ because God didn't choose him.

How then can he justly be held accountable for not receiving Christ?

God is ultimately responsible for his rejection of Christ (the root cause of his rejection of Christ is that he is of the non-elect (because God didn't choose him)).

Already answered.

 

[Arial]

However, the non-elect cannot receive Christ because God didn't choose him.

How then can he justly be held accountable for not receiving Christ?

God is ultimately responsible for his rejection of Christ (the root cause of his rejection of Christ is that he is of the non-elect (because God didn't choose him)).

He isn't holding them accountable for not receiving Christ. He is holding them accountable for their sins, which did not meet God's justice in Christ because they did not believe in Him. Not because they didn't receive Him in the way you mean receive Him. Which is to accept His offer. The root cause of his rejection of Christ is that he is a sinner and chooses to sin. How God becomes the root cause of their rejection is beyond explanation.

You have stated in all these threads that your purpose is to preach the gospel. And yet you have not once preached it. So let's try that for a change. Who is Jesus? Do not simply quote a Bible verse. In your own words, who is He? And don't skip ahead but let us deal with one element and question at a time so it stays organized. Just tell me who He is.

 

[justbyfaith]

Already answered.

Not adequately.