The Ability To Choose - Free Will

[Eternally-Grateful]

He places you IN CHRIST, and gives you the right to all the promises of heaven, including the fact of being the Body of Christ, the Children of God, the People of God, the Dwelling Place of God and so on —which things not even the angels are, nor will be. Does "Image of God" fit that? I think very definitely so!

The differences do not lie in us, but in whom we live. And it is for that, that we are made.

God created mankind in his image

A baby who is born is born in the image of God.

what does this mean?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

It doesn't, in my book. Who says it does?

Most calvinists I know do.

they claim we are made alive, then believe, then justified.

But the Spirit can do whatever it pleases, as unaccountable as the wind. (John 3)

Yes, it can teach you and I. without making us born again..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Lol, I've taught Romans 9, too.

The self-deterministic view is not even to be found there, except in statements where it is explicitly denied.

I do not even know what this means. Never heard of a self determinate view. Can you share it?

I'm guessing you intend, by, 'fatalistic view', only what you reduce the Calvinistic to be saying or implying.

I mean,

God did not chose to send one baby to heaven and one to hell before they were even born.

I mean, romans 9 is concerning the question Paul asked. Did God make a mistake. mistake doing what?

Choosing Israel?

Romans 9 is Paul refuting the lies of the Jews. and trying to show that everything going on was planned to begin with. it was all in Gods plan.

when taken in this light. it flows all the way through romans 11. with the ending being God wins, and Israel is restored. and FINALLY does what God created for them to do. be a light to the world.

 

[ReverendRV]

I am not sure what you mean here.

Are you talking about Christ's spiritual death on the cross?

Because he lives, I will too. He is the Life for those who are dead in Trespasses and Sin...

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Because he lives, I will too. He is the Life for those who are dead in Trespasses and Sin...

yes..That is our security for those of us who have been saved.

But not everyone dead in trespasses and sin will be made alive.

something has to happen first.

 

[Arial]

Yes they must.

But they are reborn WHEN their sins are forgiven.

Not before..

Their sins are forgiven when they hear and believe. But they cannot believe when they hear unless they are first born again of God. Take for example those who had Jesus right in front of them, were talking to him, had witnessed his miracles, and still did not believe. Jesus told them why they did not believe. "Because you are not my sheep." He also said that all that the Father was giving him would come to him, and he would give them eternal life.

That is what you are missing when you arrive at your faith first, then new birth, theory. Or as you put it here, sins forgiven, then the new birth. We can't just pick the things we like and that fit into the image of God we have created, and ignore the most basic truth of all. Salvation is monergistic. It will come to pass for the elect without any man adding a single thing to it, or taking a single thing away from it. We must use the whole counsel of God if we want to stand on solid ground in our beliefs.

So, would you please give me your interpretation of the passages I referenced here from John 10. You can read the entire thing, within its full context there before you reply if you want to make sure of what you say it means. Doing this, would be an honest conversation with a willingness to listen and learn. A conversation carried on in good faith. As per the rules.

I am not sure what this has to do with the discussion.

It pertains to your statement in post # 172

As I see it. You can’t have someone made spiritually alive while still under the wage of sin

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Their sins are forgiven when they hear and believe.

Yes. and now they can be born again,

until then, they were dead in tresspasses and sin

But they cannot believe when they hear unless they are first born again of God.

If you want to believe this feel free. I can not.

The bible says they can hear. but they refuse. it says they can see. but they close their eyes so they can not see and be saved

In the books of acts. quoting the OT

Acts 28:27 — 27 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.” ’

ie. God would heal them IF they would open their eyes and ears to hear and see..

But they do not want to see. so they block out the words of God

 

[Eleanor]

God can only go against his Justice through his Grace...

But his grace is based on him satisfying his own justice on the cross, not going against it.

 

[makesends]

Yes they must.

But they are reborn WHEN their sins are forgiven.

Not before..

I am not sure what this has to do with the discussion.

Do me, or us, a favor. Lay out the 'ordo salutis' according to scripture.

I mean, in one manner of speaking a person was saved from the foundation of the world, and their sins also were forgiven from the foundation of the world, since the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. Our sins were certainly atoned for 2000 years ago. So one could argue that. But that isn't what is meant by 'ordo salutis', nor, I think, is that what you are talking about.

I'm not sure whether you are conflating the temporal sequence humans (or rather, you) observe with the logical sequence, or just what, here.

If you can't (or don't want to) lay out the 'ordo salutis', can you show from scripture that they are reborn WHEN their sins are forgiven, and explain what you mean by WHEN, and describe as to whether you are talking temporal or logical?

 

[makesends]

God created mankind in his image

A baby who is born is born in the image of God.

what does this mean?

What do you mean by 'born in the image of God'? Is that what the Bible says?

 

[ReverendRV]

But his grace is based on him satisfying his own justice on the cross, not going against it.

Perhaps I should have phrased that as God diverting his Justice by his Grace..

 

[makesends]

Most calvinists I know do.

they claim we are made alive, then believe, then justified.

Yes, it can teach you and I. without making us born again..

Temporally, or Logically?

Anyhow, please, show the 'ordo salutis', as you see it, from scripture.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Do me, or us, a favor. Lay out the 'ordo salutis' according to scripture.

I mean, in one manner of speaking a person was saved from the foundation of the world, and their sins also were forgiven from the foundation of the world, since the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. Our sins were certainly atoned for 2000 years ago. So one could argue that. But that isn't what is meant by 'ordo salutis', nor, I think, is that what you are talking about.

I'm not sure whether you are conflating the temporal sequence humans (or rather, you) observe with the logical sequence, or just what, here.

If you can't (or don't want to) lay out the 'ordo salutis', can you show from scripture that they are reborn WHEN their sins are forgiven, and explain what you mean by WHEN, and describe as to whether you are talking temporal or logical?

1. We were predestined from the foundation of the world to be conformed to the image of the creator. Based on Gods foreknowledge and his will
2. According to Jesus. His will is that all who see and believe (have saving faith) this is shown by jesus own words.

John 6: 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 5: 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.



John 3: 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should [not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 1: 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

even paul said it

Eph 1: 13 – 14: 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[ is the [guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

as for order solutis? I do not speak latin, I try to stay away from it sincer the bible was not written in it. and it is not my language I assume you mean order of salvation?

I think it is all above. and I will add the closing remarks of John, who was a testimony to the things Jesus said

John 20:31 — 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

1. we must hear the words of Jesus,, the words as he said are spirit and they are life (this is eating the food which endures forever in john 6)
2. After God helps us to understand these words by teaching us. We must Believe (saving faith not mere belief) which means we trust in him (eph 1) by receiving him (john 1: 12) in faith (John 1, 3, 4 and 6 as we are saved by Grace through faith (eph 1)
3. Once we do this. God makes us, who were dead in tresspasses and sins alive in christ. via the washing of regeneration of the HS (titus 3) where our sins are washed away, having been redeemed by the blood of the lamb, as the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us (justification)

this can be a little wordy, if you need me to explain more. let me know. if you have any questions. I would love to answer them

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

What do you mean by 'born in the image of God'? Is that what the Bible says?

The bible says man was created in the image of God.

Are we not man and woman?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Temporally, or Logically?

Not sure what you mean

Anyhow, please, show the 'ordo salutis', as you see it, from scripture.

again, I assume you mean order of salvation? (why do we use latin words? I answered below (or by the time I post this, it will be above..lol)

 

[makesends]

I do not even know what this means. Never heard of a self determinate view. Can you share it?

"Self-determinism" goes by a couple or more uses. The one use I'm referring to can mean mere 'real choice', or it can mean, as those insisting on self-determinism would have it, 'uncaused choice'. Sometimes I refer to this last kind of choice as self-deterministic, and those insisting on it as, self-determinists. I say it, as opposed to 'free-willers', to give the sense of their need to maintain their position as sole causers of their own decisions, or even as their thinking concerning their own destiny and abilities, quite apart from God's purposes.

I mean,

God did not chose to send one baby to heaven and one to hell before they were even born.

Is it your mindset and/or worldview that insists on this, or can you show it from Scripture?

I mean, romans 9 is concerning the question Paul asked. Did God make a mistake. mistake doing what?

Choosing Israel?

Mistake doing whatever at all that he did, in creating or, as we like to say, in intervening. By the notions of some, what God did, by mistake went bad. Adam and Even sinned, quite apart from God causing that they do so, so he had to revert to plan B. The implications of that kind of thought are enormous and outrageous.

Romans 9 is Paul refuting the lies of the Jews. and trying to show that everything going on was planned to begin with. it was all in Gods plan.

when taken in this light. it flows all the way through romans 11. with the ending being God wins, and Israel is restored. and FINALLY does what God created for them to do. be a light to the world.

But to get there, Paul goes through a LOT of things showing how God works, and, as you said, from the beginning to the end.

If, for example, before Esau and Jacob had even done anything right or wrong, God had already planned to love one and hate the other, it is hard to deny what is being taught there. Call it what you want, to gloss over it by pointing out the larger purpose of the chapter(s) does not render the statement merely a rhetorical path to get to the larger statement. The same applies to the figure of potter vs clay, and "Who are you, Oh man" and so on. And it just continues and continues. EVERY time I have tried to get someone to defeat the Reformed use of Romans 9, (nevermind in context of the whole book (or of the whole Bible) they cannot do it logically/ hermeneutically/ linguistically/ etcly.

 

[QVQ]

There is the Will of God
The natural man will choose pleasure or self interest or just because.
There is so much noise in the world, all the "choices" clamoring for action and attention
If God is the one desire, a person will choose the path of God
The natural man is blown about like a leaf in the wind, choosing the advantage of pleasure or profit.
A person who is aware of the Will of God will choose the path that leads to God
Salvation confers the ability to see that difference of paths and to value the choice (Will) of God

 

[makesends]

Not sure what you mean

Yes; then, you conflate them. They are not the same, because God does not operate in our temporal sequence without also in his arena 'outside of' time.

"Logically" ordering, means to arrange facts, causally, in one's mind.
"Temporally" ordering, means to arrange events, in time sequence, in one's mind.

again, I assume you mean order of salvation? (why do we use latin words? I answered below (or by the time I post this, it will be above..lol)

'Ordo salutis' is like a lot of names for technical concepts. It translates to "the order of salvation" but that translation can be taken to mean several things. "Ordo salutis" only means the order of events or causes resulting in salvation from sin, its ownership and its penalty, and in that, excluding considerations of what is called 'sanctification' (growing in maturity, walking with Christ, etc) and 'eschatology' (even, our eventual destiny of heaven).

 

[Arial]

Yes. and now they can be born again,

until then, they were dead in tresspasses and sin

Can the spiritually dead hear and believe? Scripture says no, and you have been shown that from 1 Cor and other places.

The bible says they can hear. but they refuse. it says they can see. but they close their eyes so they can not see and be saved

In the books of acts. quoting the OT

Acts 28:27 — 27 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.” ’

ie. God would heal them IF they would open their eyes and ears to hear and see..

But they do not want to see. so they block out the words of God

This is where a person runs into trouble when trying to demonstrate a belief by not using the whole counsel of God, and call it good enough, even definitively true. Yes, Jesus is quoting from Is 6, but did you read Is 6? Here is what it says:

8-10 "And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" Then I said, "Here I am! Send me." And he said, "Go, and say to this people: "Keep on hearing, but do not understand; keep on seeing, but do not perceive. Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."

You can see that as applying only to Israel, and it is a judgment pronounced on Israel, but what does the NT have to say that applies it to all people. We have Romans 1 and 2. We have 1 Cor 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned." That is a clear statement that something has to happen before we can understand and accept.

Then we have Paul, telling of his conversion and the words Jesus spoke to him. Acts 26:16-18 "Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me."

John 12:40 He (God) has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them. That is the same verse quoted from Is.

Don't use Scripture in a way that contradicts other scripture. Find out why the apparent contradiction exists, instead of just picking the one that suits your already existing belief.

 

[ReverendRV]

Don't use Scripture in a way that contradicts other scripture. Find out why the apparent contradiction exists, instead of just picking the one that suits your already existing belief.

Amen!