The Ability To Choose - Free Will

[ReverendRV]

Maybe you're right, bro. But, to me, a Calvinist is a 5-pointer. But that's what I believe anyway.

The difference would be in how the Limitation is explained. The Sacrifice is for the World, but the Resurrection is only for the Elect. Both are called an Atonement on the Day of Atonement (Leviticus16). God Nails our Sins to the Cross, so Jesus only Bore the Sin of the Many. Those Sins alone are the Sins God Confessed on his head; those are the only Sins he Atoned for in the Holy of Hollies in Heaven as our High Priest. THAT certainly limits the Atonement...

 

[ReverendRV]

The difference would be in how the Limitation is explained. The Sacrifice is for the World, but the Resurrection is only for the Elect. Both are called an Atonement on the Day of Atonement (Leviticus16). God Nails our Sins to the Cross, so Jesus only Bore the Sin of the Many. Those Sins alone are the Sins God Confessed on his head; those are the only Sins he Atoned for in the Holy of Hollies in Heaven as our High Priest. THAT certainly limits the Atonement...

Fit man ~ by ReverendRV * April 10

Leviticus 16:21 KJV; And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

In chapter 16 of the book of Leviticus, Moses gives instructions to the Priest who performed the Sacrifices made to God on the Annual ‘Day of Atonement’ ritual. The Priest first had to make a Sacrifice for himself and his family, then he would make a Sacrifice for the Sin of Israel with two young goats. The Priest cast Lots in order to determine which goat would be the bloody Sacrifice and which goat would be the Scapegoat. The Priest took the Sacrificial goat and killed it on the Alter, to shed blood for the Remission of Israel’s Sins for that year. After this, the Priest would put both of his hands on the Scapegoat, and confess the Sins of Israel upon it. Then a Fit Man would lead the Scapegoat and its burden of Sin out of the camp to the wilderness. It would be let loose and sent to desert places far away, never to return; and be presented alive to God…

But you ask, “Why the two goats? Didn’t the Priest make Atonement with the Sacrificial goat?” The Priest did make Atonement with the Sacrificial goat; but he also made Atonement with the Scapegoat. Leviticus 16:10 says, “But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the Scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an Atonement with him and let him go as a Scapegoat into the wilderness.” We see that both goats were needed to make an Atonement for the nation of Israel; without both, the Atonement would’ve fallen short. You ask, “What’s this Atonement business??” ~ God has said that without the shedding of blood there is no Remission of Sin. Sin is Transgressing the boundaries where there are signs posted which say ‘No Trespassing’. These no trespassing signs are carved in stone and called the Ten Commandments. Have you ever told a Lie? What do you call a person who tells Lies? If you call someone a Liar for Lying to YOU, you would be a Liar for telling a Lie; Quid Pro Quo? That is just one of the Ten Commandments; if there is a God, would you be guilty of Sin? Read the Ten Commandments in Exodus chapter 20 and see how easy it is to break Gods Law. You will need a Sacrificial lamb AND a Scapegoat to keep you out of Gods prison, which is the fires of Hell. ~ But the Temple no longer exists…

John the Baptist said that Jesus was the Lamb of God which takes away the Sin of the world. The ‘Day of Atonement’ ritual was symbolic of Jesus in that he fulfilled the requirements of both the young goats. Jesus shed his blood because he was scourged by the Romans nearly to the death. Then he was led out of the city of Jerusalem, led out of the camp, by a Fit Man. ~ After they had scourged and mocked Jesus, they took the robe off from him, and put his own clothes on him, and led him away to Crucify him. And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his Cross. Simon fulfills the role of the Fit Man who leads the Scapegoat out of Jerusalem to the place of Crucifixion. Jesus died that day but he rose from the dead and was presented alive to the LORD. The Bible authenticates itself and it’s trustworthy; Jesus is trustworthy. Place your Faith in him, Repent of your Sins and Confess him as Lord, and God will be pleased to declare you as innocent as a lamb; the lamb of God, Jesus Christ…

1st Timothy 1:15 KJV: This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

 

[Carbon]

The difference would be in how the Limitation is explained. The Sacrifice is for the World, but the Resurrection is only for the Elect. Both are called an Atonement on the Day of Atonement (Leviticus16). God Nails our Sins to the Cross, so Jesus only Bore the Sin of the Many. Those Sins alone are the Sins God Confessed on his head; those are the only Sins he Atoned for in the Holy of Hollies in Heaven as our High Priest. THAT certainly limits the Atonement...

Okay. But obviously, an explanation changes nothing. It may change someone else's mind, but not the facts, and the best explanation is in accordance with the facts.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

That is a true statement in John 3:18, but you are only saying "he who believes"
So, we humans are what separates us?
I'm sorry, I disagree. I'm not a humanist.

He who believes is not condemned

He who does not believe is condemned already

so what seperates

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Okay. But obviously, an explanation changes nothing. It may change someone else's mind, but not the facts, and the best explanation is in accordance with the facts.

100%

the issue is we all think we have the facts..

 

[Carbon]

He who believes is not condemned

He who does not believe is condemned already

so what seperates

You're stating facts of belief. You're not even answering your own question.

 

[Carbon]

100%

the issue is we all think we have the facts..

Yes, sure, and some of us look to scripture for the facts and accept them whether we think it should be that way or not.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You're stating facts of belief. You're not even answering your own question.

Actually I did

what separates me from an unbeliever

God came to me, and i received his gift in faith (but as many as believed him, to THEM he gave the right

He came to them, they said no in unbelief and God left them in their condemned state

facts of belief, I am not sure what you mean..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yes, sure, and some of us look to scripture for the facts and accept them whether we think it should be that way or not.

I am sure many of us do that.. We will learn until we see Jesus, then continue to learn

 

[Carbon]

Actually I did

Okay.

what separates me from an unbeliever

God came to me, and i received his gift in faith (but as many as believed him, to THEM he gave the right

Yes, genuine faith does separate you from an unbeliever, of course.

He came to them, they said no in unbelief and God left them in their condemned state

Where was this? And where was God asking?

facts of belief, I am not sure what you mean..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Okay.

Yes, genuine faith does separate you from an unbeliever, of course.

Where was this? And where was God asking?

John 3

God so loved THE WORLD. that he gave his only sin so all who believe....

God was not sent to judge the world. but that the would MAY be saved.

He who believes (looks to the cross) is not condemned,

He who in turn does not believe, He remains condemned.

and Again, Moses and the bronze serpent is a type of christ or symbol

All were dead. whoever looked would live, whoever did not would die. but the serpent was there for everyone to see (God came to them all through moses)

 

[makesends]

A horse and mule can not choose.

We can.

I expect you mean that in some way that I don't. They choose all the time, one thing over another. If your mule or horse has had apples and radishes, and you hold an apple in one hand and a radish in the other, it will choose between hands, (since it can't do both), and willfully so. (And, no, lol, I'm not saying there is no difference between us and them).

thats why A horse and mule must be bridled.

He said do not be like them./ come of your own will..

lets look closely

Ps 32: 8: I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go;
I will guide you with My eye.
9 Do not be like the horse or like the mule,
Which have no understanding,
Which must be harnessed with bit and bridle,
Else they will not come near you.

ie, take my teaching and my guidance. do it freely.. do not be like those with no understanding.

I'm guessing then, that you mean to imply that the difference between man and horse is 'free' will. —To me, there is no need for that construction, particularly since it is implicative of some lack of causation external to the person, and in the usual mindset, particularly not as 'controlled by God'.

If I understand you in past interchanges, you assert that while there is external causation behind all our choices, that we cannot be held morally liable for them if God is at the beginning of those causes, by intent.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I expect you mean that in some way that I don't. They choose all the time, one thing over another. If your mule or horse has had apples and radishes, and you hold an apple in one hand and a radish in the other, it will choose between hands, (since it can't do both), and willfully so. (And, no, lol, I'm not saying there is no difference between us and them).

I'm guessing then, that you mean to imply that the difference between man and horse is 'free' will. —To me, there is no need for that construction, particularly since it is implicative of some lack of causation external to the person, and in the usual mindset, particularly not as 'controlled by God'.

If I understand you in past interchanges, you assert that while there is external causation behind all our choices, that we cannot be held morally liable for them if God is at the beginning of those causes, by intent.

God made me in his image

God did not make the horse in his image.

What does this mean, What did God give me he did not give the horse.

 

[Carbon]

John 3

God so loved THE WORLD. that he gave his only sin so all who believe....

God was not sent to judge the world. but that the would MAY be saved.

He who believes (looks to the cross) is not condemned,

He who in turn does not believe, He remains condemned.

and Again, Moses and the bronze serpent is a type of christ or symbol

All were dead. whoever looked would live, whoever did not would die. but the serpent was there for everyone to see (God came to them all through moses)

I'll answer this later when I return home. I'd like to anyway.

 

[ReverendRV]

God came to me, and i received his gift in faith (but as many as believed him, to THEM he gave the right

This sentence reveals the Logical Order of Salvation. God comes to you (Grace), you receive your Gift of Faith. Your Gift of Faith gives you the Right to become a Child of God (Justification). We do not become an Adopted Child of God until we're Justified through Faith Alone. The Grace we received before we're given the Right to become Children of God, makes us Spiritually Alive; not Justified...

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I'll answer this later when I return home. I'd like to anyway.

be safe

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

This sentence reveals the Logical Order of Salvation. God comes to you (Grace), you receive your Gift of Faith. Your Gift of Faith gives you the Right to become a Child of God (Justification). We do not become an Adopted Child of God until we're Justified through Faith Alone. The Grace we received before we're given the Right to become Children of God, makes us Spiritually Alive; not Justified...

But see there-in lies my problem

the wage of sin is death,

the gift of God is life (eternal)(justification)

So we can not be made alive while still dead in sin.

that is the major hinderance is allowing me to see it the calvinist or tulip way

 

[makesends]

Well said!

It's a gruesome picture of our Old Man crucified; and still stirring like the Walking Dead...

Yes, it is. I've had that picture in my mind long ago, and particularly since that show started. —And it's off-topic, in a way, but that picture doesn't even come close in the stifling oily thick blackness of horror that humanity has become, apart from God, nor does it demonstrate the universe-wounding contradiction of the smallest sin against God.

 

[ReverendRV]

But see there-in lies my problem

the wage of sin is death,

the gift of God is life (eternal)(justification)

So we can not be made alive while still dead in sin.

that is the major hinderance is allowing me to see it the calvinist or tulip way

Here-in lies the Solution; Spiritual Death is Separation from God. To become Spiritually Alive is to no longer be Separated from God. We would have more in common with an Unfallen, Unjustified Adam; who could walk with God...

 

[makesends]

So we can not be made alive while still dead in sin.

that is the major hinderance is allowing me to see it the calvinist or tulip way

But there you say it yourself. Agreed, that you cannot be made alive while still dead in sin. The Calvinist says the same. The elect do not remain dead in sin, in which they are made alive; the Calvinist says that the spiritually dead are raised from death to life. A new creature.

In effect, but not in words, you're (at least, here) saying what we do, I think. No man can produce the effects/results of being a new creature without becoming that new creature. —Agreed?