Romans 9 from a free will prespective

[Arial]

Yes I do. But first please note that I didn't ask why you thought you deserved or earned that mercy. I only asked "what is it about you, who you are, what you are or what you do, that makes you think you are in that group you call elect?

And that is the question I answered as I understood the question.

I assume you are convinced that you are among the "elect" according to your definition and meaning of elect. What has convinced you of that?

The fact that I believe and trust in the person and work of Jesus.

Neither this post of mine or the one in question have anything to do with your initial response which was:

Oh my! Going through life knowing the gospel and the unimaginatively great life in being with Jesus and then having no assurance of ever having that life would be most agonizing.

 

[brightfame52]

You don’t believe that whatever man believes in Christ will be, as a result, saved?
(Notice that whoever believes “will be” is the language, not whoever believes “is already saved”. “Will be” is a response action by and of God. You go to school and get good grades, you will be given a degree or diploma.

Since God doesn’t have to save anyone, his doing so is all of grace, and all by him. That he gives the condition of faith to precede his action of saving does not make is less his action alone, nor is there merit in the human action, for the very opportunity to repent and believe is an action of grace!


Doug

So you believe man does something in order for Salvation to become actual, and what Christ did merely made Salvation within the realm of possibility, but man seals the deal. Thats salvation by man and it dishonors Christ. It makes what man does more effectual unto Salvation than what Christ did.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, we all believe this is true! No could could do anything to restore our relationship with God even if our nature didn’t prohibit our desires and awareness of our condition toward God, because he, as the offended party, has all the rights and power on his side. In other words, if God doesn’t want to reconcile with man, it doesn’t matter what you or I can or cannot desire or do. We may dance and cry and plead 24/7/365 for God to reconcile, but it would not be able to make him do what he doesn’t want to do. His desires are most important and the foundation of all that is built upon it!

Doug

No one by nature can please God,, understand God, or Seek God including myself

 

[JIM]

The fact that I believe and trust in the person and work of Jesus.

So you think that you are saved because of your works?

 

[TibiasDad]

So you believe man does something in order for Salvation to become actual, and what Christ did merely made Salvation within the realm of possibility, but man seals the deal. Thats salvation by man and it dishonors Christ. It makes what man does more effectual unto Salvation than what Christ did.

You didn’t answer my question! You don’t believe that whatever man believes in Christ will be, as a result, saved?

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

No one by nature can please God,, understand God, or Seek God including myself

Okay, I’ve never denied that! All I am saying is that it doesn’t matter if we could or not; God’s desire always is of first importance and first to initiate. Without it, there is no hope! God’s sovereignty rules over mine!


Doug

 

[Arial]

So you think that you are saved because of your works?

I believe I am one of the elect (the question you asked, stay on track) because I believe.

 

[brightfame52]

You didn’t answer my question! You don’t believe that whatever man believes in Christ will be, as a result, saved?

Doug

Its really nothing else to say, no circular reasoning and questions are going set aside the fact that you believe some people Christ died for, put their sins away, shall nevertheless die in their sins in unbelief. That automatically equates to you not believing that Christs death for sin in and of itself saved anyone.

 

[brightfame52]

Okay, I’ve never denied that! All I am saying is that it doesn’t matter if we could or not; God’s desire always is of first importance and first to initiate. Without it, there is no hope! God’s sovereignty rules over mine!


Doug

How do you say Gods desire is first in importance, when you believe God doesnt always get what He desires ?

 

[TibiasDad]

How do you say Gods desire is first in importance, when you believe God doesnt always get what He desires ?

God’s desire is first in terms of restoration of relationship with man; that is my point!


Doug

 

[brightfame52]

God’s desire is first in terms of restoration of relationship with man; that is my point!


Doug

Still, you teach that Gods desire goes unfulfilled.

 

[TibiasDad]

Still, you teach that Gods desire goes unfulfilled.

To say that God “desires all to be saved” does not necessitate that everyone will be saved. Christ’s death will save anyone who believes; all are able to be saved because of Christ death and resurrection. Belief is all that is scripturally needed for one to be saved. Believing is the only contingency, the only requirement of God that remains to be accomplished for one to be saved. Thus, no one is “saved” until all the components of the plan of salvation are completed. Christ did not believe for anyone! The Father or Holy Spirit does not believe for anyone! So that necessarily leaves the believing to the man alone!


Doug

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Still, you teach that Gods desire goes unfulfilled.

That is because there are times it does go unfulfilled.

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

 

[brightfame52]

To say that God “desires all to be saved” does not necessitate that everyone will be saved. Christ’s death will save anyone who believes; all are able to be saved because of Christ death and resurrection. Belief is all that is scripturally needed for one to be saved. Believing is the only contingency, the only requirement of God that remains to be accomplished for one to be saved. Thus, no one is “saved” until all the components of the plan of salvation are completed. Christ did not believe for anyone! The Father or Holy Spirit does not believe for anyone! So that necessarily leaves the believing to the man alone!


Doug

Again, all this back and forth does nothing to change the fact that you condition salvation on mans doing, ultiametly you may as well say, Christs death alone saved no one, because you believe sinners Christ died for shall be lost, die in their sins, even the sins He supposedly died for.

 

[brightfame52]

That is because there are times it does go unfulfilled.

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

Okay you teach Gods desire goes unfulfilled as well, I believe thats blasphemy Job 23:13

13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

That word doeth means, perform, fulfills, accomplishes, what He desires !

 

[Reformedguy]

That is because there are times it does go unfulfilled.

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

The Bible says no purpose of God's can be thwarted. Is it His purpose to save the whole world?

 

[TibiasDad]

Again, all this back and forth does nothing to change the fact that you condition salvation on mans doing, ultiametly you may as well say, Christs death alone saved no one, because you believe sinners Christ died for shall be lost, die in their sins, even the sins He supposedly died for.

Is belief necessary for salvation?

Who is responsible for believing?

Doug

 

[JIM]

The Bible says no purpose of God's can be thwarted. Is it His purpose to save the whole world?

His purpose is to assemble that group of human beings who love Him by their own choice once they are presented with His truth. If He just wanted to produce a group of people whom He permits to love Him, He could have done that without all the folderal of creation.

 

[JIM]

Is belief necessary for salvation?

Who is responsible for believing?

Yes belief in God is necessary for salvation and we are the ones responsible for believing in God. That is what the Word of God, the Bible is for; namely to give us all that is needed to believe in Him. Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

 

[makesends]

Splitting theological hairs! You cannot be saved unless salvation is possible; in other words, there is no “will be” without the foundation of “can be” as a framework. The contingency of “whoever believes” is the indication of potential, of possibility, of “can be” being the logical foundation of “will be”.

You have the cart before the horse, which is typical of your philosophical approach as a Calvinist!

Doug

God is default fact. He is the only default fact —there is no other default fact.

His plan logically "precedes" anything else happening; there is no field of possibilities or alternatives or unknown contingencies. There is no framework within which God is confined to work. Your philosophical approach is self-deterministic, as though God must react to your will in order for his plan to come to fruition. You would have him fly by the seat of his pants, subject to the whims of humanity and the vagaries of random causation!

Nobody that becomes saved does so because of the chance that it might happen, but because God intended and caused it to happen. Salvation is possible BECAUSE God caused it.