Romans 9 from a free will prespective

[TibiasDad]

Your philosophical approach is self-deterministic, as though God must react to your will in order for his plan to come to fruition. You would have him fly by the seat of his pants, subject to the whims of humanity and the vagaries of random causation!

It is not my determination that God must act when I believe, it is God’s determination that he doesn’t act until I believe. God says “if you believe”, I will save, and you will be saved by my actions!

You are under the assumption that God must save; that is false! God is Sovereign and he does what he wants, if he wants and how he wants! God being Love, wants to save, but is under no legal obligation to do so. That he is willing and promises to save is all God needs to be true to himself! If nobody comes, he is not at a loss! God would not be less if nobody believed, but he knew some would!

God’s love is vindicated by sending Christ and making salvation a real thing, and his justice is vindicated if we refuse. God didn’t need to create as he did, and he doesn’t have an obligation to redeem. He would be the same God if he hadn’t done what he did.

God sets the rules of the game, not us! And the rules say “If anyone believes” God will save them! Belief is a prerequisite to salvation occurring. Paul taught clearly that Israel was lost for one reason: because of unbelief! And the Gentiles were grafted in for one reason: they believed! And they could be “cut off” just like the natural branches if they stopped/didn’t continue believing just as the Jews could and would be grafted back into the tree if they believed!

Whoever believes will be saved! No belief, no salvation!


Doug

 

[makesends]

It is not my determination that God must act when I believe, it is God’s determination that he doesn’t act until I believe. God says “if you believe”, I will save, and you will be saved by my actions!

You are under the assumption that God must save; that is false! God is Sovereign and he does what he wants, if he wants and how he wants! God being Love, wants to save, but is under no legal obligation to do so. That he is willing and promises to save is all God needs to be true to himself! If nobody comes, he is not at a loss! God would not be less if nobody believed, but he knew some would!

God’s love is vindicated by sending Christ and making salvation a real thing, and his justice is vindicated if we refuse. God didn’t need to create as he did, and he doesn’t have an obligation to redeem. He would be the same God if he hadn’t done what he did.

God sets the rules of the game, not us! And the rules say “If anyone believes” God will save them! Belief is a prerequisite to salvation occurring. Paul taught clearly that Israel was lost for one reason: because of unbelief! And the Gentiles were grafted in for one reason: they believed! And they could be “cut off” just like the natural branches if they stopped/didn’t continue believing just as the Jews could and would be grafted back into the tree if they believed!

Whoever believes will be saved! No belief, no salvation!


Doug

Where do you get the idea that I'm "under the assumption that God must save"? I'm not under the assumption that God must do anything.

How you can think that random possibility rules God's actions, is beyond me.

The logic that 'contingencies depend on more than one possibility' is vapid. One thing depending on another to happen only means that one thing must happen. In fact, it depends on only one of them to happen. Ninevah's safety depended on Ninevah's repentance —you cannot even prove that their failure to repent could have happened, but it is certain that it DID NOT happen.

Nobody disputes that salvation is by grace through faith. OF COURSE they believe! What your logic here fails to show is that those at enmity with God are capable of salvific faith.

 

[Manfred]

Yes, that is true. And that is why God gave us His written revelation, the Bible.

Can you explain why you understand the revelation in the Bible while others don't.

Were you saved by reading the Bible?

 

[brightfame52]

Is belief necessary for salvation?

Who is responsible for believing?

Doug

Again, all this back and forth does nothing to change the fact that you condition salvation on mans doing, ultimately you may as well say, Christs death alone saved no one, because you believe sinners Christ died for shall be lost, die in their sins, even the sins He supposedly died for.

 

[Reformedguy]

His purpose is to assemble that group of human beings who love Him by their own choice once they are presented with His truth. If He just wanted to produce a group of people whom He permits to love Him, He could have done that without all the folderal of creation.

He could have, but He didn't. It's not necessary to deal with what ifs but what is.

 

[Reformedguy]

Is belief necessary for salvation?

Who is responsible for believing?

Doug

Yes

We are.

Lucky for us belief is granted or given by God.

 

[Rella]

Again, all this back and forth does nothing to change the fact that you condition salvation on mans doing, ultiametly you may as well say, Christs death alone saved no one, because you believe sinners Christ died for shall be lost, die in their sins, even the sins He supposedly died for.

A certainty there is one....the sinning thief beside Him on the cross was saved.... else, Jesus lied.... and that cannot be.

Did the thief do anything. You decide. For if he had not spoken at the moment he did, he would be with the other thief in eternity.

 

[JIM]

Can you explain why you understand the revelation in the Bible while others don't.

Were you saved by reading the Bible?

Seriously? ? ?

 

[JIM]

God is default fact. He is the only default fact —there is no other default fact.

His plan logically "precedes" anything else happening; there is no field of possibilities or alternatives or unknown contingencies. There is no framework within which God is confined to work. Your philosophical approach is self-deterministic, as though God must react to your will in order for his plan to come to fruition. You would have him fly by the seat of his pants, subject to the whims of humanity and the vagaries of random causation!

Nobody that becomes saved does so because of the chance that it might happen, but because God intended and caused it to happen. Salvation is possible BECAUSE God caused it.

If that were true, then there is no rational meaning at all to the creation.

 

[Rella]

Yes

We are.

Lucky for us belief is granted or given by God.

But does belief provide faith?

And is it not faith that is a command, requirement , and an expectation for our eternity with Jesus? Eph 2:8; 2 Cor 5:7


Is not faith actually belief without proof?

Is not faith actually belief without evidence?

They are not interchangeable..... Faith is confidence in God and his promises, while belief is acceptance of something as true.

 

[JIM]

Again, all this back and forth does nothing to change the fact that you condition salvation on mans doing, ultimately you may as well say, Christs death alone saved no one, because you believe sinners Christ died for shall be lost, die in their sins, even the sins He supposedly died for.

Yeah, salvation is conditioned upon believing. Believing is man's doing. Saving is God's doing. Christ's dying allowed for God's doing. God's holiness demands the punishment of sin. Christ's dying was the punishment for all the sins of those who believe.

 

[Rella]

Nobody that becomes saved does so because of the chance that it might happen, but because God intended and caused it to happen. Salvation is possible BECAUSE God caused it.

Salvation is possible because it was in God's plans from before creation. Made possible to man who has the faith to accept the shed blood of Jesus.

Salvation is God's grace. It is the gift of freedom from our sins that Jesus made possible by taking the punishment for our sins on the cross

 

[JIM]

But does belief provide faith?

And is it not faith that is a command, requirement , and an expectation for our eternity with Jesus? Eph 2:8; 2 Cor 5:7


Is not faith actually belief without proof?

Is not faith actually belief without evidence?

They are not interchangeable..... Faith is confidence in God and his promises, while belief is acceptance of something as true.

Belief IN is faith. Remember, there is only one Greek word, not two as in English. In Greek, the noun is πίστις [pistis].

 

[Manfred]

Seriously? ? ?

Yes.

Act 17:32 Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked. But others said, “We will hear you again about this.”
Act 17:33 So Paul went out from their midst.
Act 17:34 But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them.

Why did you believe, while others mock?

Were you saved by reading the Bible?

 

[JIM]

He could have, but He didn't. It's not necessary to deal with what ifs but what is.

More often than not we better understand the what is, by dealing with the what ifs.

 

[JIM]

Were you saved by reading the Bible?

No, I believed by reading the bible? I was saved by God because I believed in what He said in the Bible.

 

[Rella]

Belief IN is faith. Remember, there is only one Greek word, not two as in English. In Greek, the noun is πίστις [pistis].

I disagree.

 

[JIM]

I disagree.

You disagree that there is only the one word in Greek?

 

[Rella]

You disagree that there is only the one word in Greek?

No, I disagree that belief and faith are equal to the same.

I don't care what the Greeks said. Pick one or the other word but don't assign 2 of different meanings for I do not believe the Greeks meant to do that

 

[David1701]

To keep things simple I avoid the definition of the salvific content of faith that saves people before Christ. This information, though of interest, is not needed for the point I was making ... that point being that a 1282 N.A. Indian is doomed to hell as faith cometh by hearing and that Indian never heard the salvific gospel. Aside: Yeah, there is anecdotal evidence of VERY rare exceptions.


True ... and they all go to hell as we are saved by FAITH ALONE. No ones works are sufficient Rom 3:10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one.



Yeah, the 1282 N.A. Indian and all others without exception who never heard of Christ are judged by their works and go to hell. Rom 3:10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one.



You believe in WORKS salvation as an another method to merit heaven. I don't. We both claim the bible backs us up. Their are plenty of verses saying one must know of Christ to be saved.

• John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
• John 12:48 Whoever rejects Me and refuses to accept My teachings, has one who judges him; the very word that I spoke will judge and condemn him on the last day.
• John 3:18 Whoever believes and has decided to trust in Him [as personal Savior and Lord] is not judged [for this one, there is no judgment, no rejection, no condemnation]; but the one who does not believe [and has decided to reject Him as personal Savior and Lord] is judged already [that one has been convicted and sentenced], because he has not believed and trusted in the name of the [One and] only begotten Son of God [the One who is truly unique, the only One of His kind, the One who alone can save him].

Inclusivism depreciates the Trinity. This depreciates the Incarnation, depreciates the work and atonement of Christ, denies the uniqueness of the Bible, denies the necessity of gospel truth, substitutes the same old philosophical junk about the 'universal logos' at work in all religious systems. John MacArthur

Given the following hypothetical:
1282 N.A. Indian does the required works needed for salvation per your definition ... then a missionary tells the Indian about Christ. The Indian does not believe the missionary.
Question 1: Is the Indian still saved by his works (give scripture)?
Question 2: if you answered "NO" I ask .... should missionaries be trained to see if someone is first saved by their works and if so, should they not tell that person about Christ because the person is already saved and telling him about Christ could lead to the loss of his salvation?

Good post (in general).

There's just one thing: where did you get that "translation" of John 3:18? It's truly abysmal.

John 3:18 (EMTV) He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Ah, I've found the translation you used; it's the updated version of the Amplified Bible. I used to have the original version, which is much better here, although still imperfect.

John 3:18 (AMP - original)
18 He who believes in Him [who clings to, trusts in, relies on Him] is not judged [he who trusts in Him never comes up for judgment; for him there is no rejection, no condemnation—he incurs no damnation]; but he who does not believe (cleave to, rely on, trust in Him) is judged already [he has already been convicted and has already received his sentence] because he has not believed in and trusted in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [He is condemned for refusing to let his trust rest in Christ’s name.]

The final bracketed comment is wrong. The reprobate sinner who does not believe is already condemned, because that is his status, being outside of Christ. He stands condemned for all his sins, not merely for refusing to trust in Christ; in fact, refusal assumes that he has heard the gospel; whereas, this passage applies to all unbelievers, whether they have heard the gospel or not.