Romans 9 from a free will prespective

[TibiasDad]

Thats a bunch of double talking, you believe Christs death merely made salvation possible. You have to believe man makes it actual, hence man is his saviour according to all your doubletalk.

Do you have to believe before you are saved?

Doug

 

[Marilyn C]

Yes, we do not know the chosen, only God does. If someone believes and comes, they are the whosoever.

What do you mean?

You quoted these scriptures, however they are referring to when the Lord was manifest on earth and after the Lord has ascended. What about people who believed in God before Christ was manifest on the earth?

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44.
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. John 6:65
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: John 10:27
John 10:29

How can people come to Jesus before He was manifest on earth?

 

[brightfame52]

Do you have to believe before you are saved?

Doug

Explain what you mean please

 

[brightfame52]

Do you have to believe before you are saved?

Doug

So you believe man does something in order for Salvation to become actual, and what Christ did merely made Salvation within the realm of possibility, but man seals the deal. Thats salvation by man and it dishonors Christ. It makes what man does more effectual unto Salvation than what Christ did.

 

[JIM]

In that passage they are the ones He predestined and called and justified.

In that passage if was those who love Him that God foreknew.

 

[JIM]

So you believe man does something in order for Salvation to become actual, and what Christ did merely made Salvation within the realm of possibility, but man seals the deal. Thats salvation by man and it dishonors Christ. It makes what man does more effectual unto Salvation than what Christ did.

If I were to tell you that I would deposit $10M into your bank account if you would give me necessary account information, and if you complied with that request and I did deposit the $10M into your account, would you really argue that the $10M was earned, that you sealed the deal, that I was dishonored and that makes you more effectual provider of the money than me?

 

[brightfame52]

In that passage if was those who love Him that God foreknew.

Men Love God only after He first Loved them and regenerated them and gave them a new heart Deut 30:6

And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

 

[brightfame52]

If I were to tell you that I would deposit $10M into your bank account if you would give me necessary account information, and if you complied with that request and I did deposit the $10M into your account, would you really argue that the $10M was earned, that you sealed the deal, that I was dishonored and that makes you more effectual provider of the money than me?

If you conditioned it upon me doing something, I sealed the deal. If you condition salvation on you doing something, thats salvation by works, and that dishonors God in Christ because Salvation is 100% by the Grace of God.

The scenario is, one day a person who was in great debt to a loan company, one day he receives news that the debt has been fully paid, his debt is gone, thats good news friend. Christ has taken away the sin debt that the elect owed to Gods law and Justice, they are free from it !

 

[JIM]

Men Love God only after He first Loved them and regenerated them and gave them a new heart Deut 30:6

And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses (Col 2:11-13).

 

[JIM]

If you conditioned it upon me doing something, I sealed the deal. If you condition salvation on you doing something, thats salvation by works, and that dishonors God in Christ because Salvation is 100% by the Grace of God.

But it is not salvation by works of law which is what Paul spoke against. Conditions imposed by God does not negate or mitigate in any way the Grace of God. The Grace of God was replete throughout the OT and under the Old Covenant and the conditions imposed were replete as well.

The scenario is, one day a person who was in great debt to a loan company, one day he receives news that the debt has been fully paid, his debt is gone, thats good news friend. Christ has taken away the sin debt that the elect owed to Gods law and Justice, they are free from it !

And if there were rather innocuous conditions imposed, such as saying "okay, thank you", for that debt being paid in full, that would still be good news. You would not complain that it was not gracious.

 

[Arial]

In that passage if was those who love Him that God foreknew.

Can you demonstrate that beyond just saying it?

 

[brightfame52]

In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses (Col 2:11-13).

A Person cant love God or believe in Christ until they have their heart circumcised by the New Birth.

 

[brightfame52]

But it is not salvation by works of law which is what Paul spoke against. Conditions imposed by God does not negate or mitigate in any way the Grace of God. The Grace of God was replete throughout the OT and under the Old Covenant and the conditions imposed were replete as well.

And if there were rather innocuous conditions imposed, such as saying "okay, thank you", for that debt being paid in full, that would still be good news. You would not complain that it was not gracious.

Again, if you condition salvation on anything you do, its works and dishonors Christ !

 

[JIM]

Can you demonstrate that beyond just saying it?

I am not too sure what you mean by demonstrating it other than that is what it says.

God foreknows absolutely everything. His foreknowledge is complete. He foreknows who will love Him and who will not love Him without regard to any specific reason why one loves Him or not. What Paul is giving us in Romans 8:28-30 is how God responds to those who love Him. He says that all things work together for good for those who love God. Paul then proceeds to explain exactly what he means by things working together for good.

I would add here that Paul is obviously speaking about the spiritual, not the temporal, good.

 

[JIM]

A Person cant love God or believe in Christ until they have their heart circumcised by the New Birth.

Where does it ever say that in the Bible?

 

[brightfame52]

I am not too sure what you mean by demonstrating it other than that is what it says.

God foreknows absolutely everything. His foreknowledge is complete. He foreknows who will love Him and who will not love Him without regard to any specific reason why one loves Him or not. What Paul is giving us in Romans 8:28-30 is how God responds to those who love Him. He says that all things work together for good for those who love God. Paul then proceeds to explain exactly what he means by things working together for good.

I would add here that Paul is obviously speaking about the spiritual, not the temporal, good.

Looks like you condition salvation on man. You even have God responding to man, my lord.

 

[brightfame52]

Where does it ever say that in the Bible?

Man is dead to God by nature, doesnt seek God, nor understand God, and cannot please God.

Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[JIM]

Looks like you condition salvation on man. You even have God responding to man, my lord.

The entire Bible is about how God responds to and interacts with His creation.

 

[brightfame52]

The entire Bible is about how God responds to and interacts with His creation.

I dont believe that, and to me it sounds blasphemous !

 

[JIM]

Man is dead to God by nature, doesnt seek God, nor understand God, and cannot please God.

Rom 3:11

So then, I guess that means that you do not understand and cannot please God. Interesting that you would think that about yourself.

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Yes.