Romans 9 from a free will prespective

[JIM]

I dont believe that, and to me it sounds blasphemous !

Okay. So now I know a little more about why you believe as you do.

 

[brightfame52]

So then, I guess that means that you do not understand and cannot please God. Interesting that you would think that about yourself.

Yes.

No one by nature can please God,, understand God, or Seek God including myself

 

[JIM]

No one by nature can please God,, understand God, or Seek God including myself

Yes, that is true. And that is why God gave us His written revelation, the Bible.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, that is true. And that is why God gave us His written revelation, the Bible.

The fact still remains.

 

[JIM]

The fact still remains.

What fact? That you don't and cannot please God? I would certainly hope you do not believe that.

 

[Arial]

I am not too sure what you mean by demonstrating it other than that is what it says.

God foreknows absolutely everything. His foreknowledge is complete. He foreknows who will love Him and who will not love Him without regard to any specific reason why one loves Him or not. What Paul is giving us in Romans 8:28-30 is how God responds to those who love Him. He says that all things work together for good for those who love God. Paul then proceeds to explain exactly what he means by things working together for good.

I would add here that Paul is obviously speaking about the spiritual, not the temporal, good.

I don't read or understand it that way though. I say foreknew in that verse, given what follows (predestined, called, justified, glorified) plus many verses we see that contain words such as elect, called, chosen not only in relationship to the believer but through all the history of God working in His creation, as the One who chooses everything pertaining to salvation and leading to the cross, as meaning He knew them. Not what they would do in the future. One example would be Eph 1:4 For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved.

And before you announce again that we are not predestined as individuals to salvation but to be holy and blameless in His sight, you cannot separate those two things as not being the same thing. The one He chooses of necessity is holy and blameless in His sight. In a sense to change that meaning as many do, to mean that election is to holy and blameless, not salvation, is to have works begin to infringe upon grace.

To say that foreknew means He looked into the future in His omniscience and saw who would choose Christ, and then chose them, and then predestinates them to holiness, is to say that His entire plan of salvation is based on contingencies. People do something and then and only then will He do something. It also completely changes the true meaning of both choose and predestinate.

 

[brightfame52]

What fact? That you don't and cannot please God? I would certainly hope you do not believe that.

No one by nature can please God,, understand God, or Seek God including myself

 

[JIM]

I don't read or understand it that way though. I say foreknew in that verse, given what follows (predestined, called, justified, glorified) plus many verses we see that contain words such as elect, called, chosen not only in relationship to the believer but through all the history of God working in His creation, as the One who chooses everything pertaining to salvation and leading to the cross, as meaning He knew them. Not what they would do in the future. One example would be Eph 1:4 For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved.

And before you announce again that we are not predestined as individuals to salvation but to be holy and blameless in His sight, you cannot separate those two things as not being the same thing. The one He chooses of necessity is holy and blameless in His sight. In a sense to change that meaning as many do, to mean that election is to holy and blameless, not salvation, is to have works begin to infringe upon grace.

To say that foreknew means He looked into the future in His omniscience and saw who would choose Christ, and then chose them, and then predestinates them to holiness, is to say that His entire plan of salvation is based on contingencies. People do something and then and only then will He do something. It also completely changes the true meaning of both choose and predestinate.

Of course I would disagree with most of that. However, setting that aside, I assume that you think that you are among that group you call elect. Given that fact that you think that election was by God's own sovereign will having absolutely nothing to do with you, who you are or what you are or what you do. In other words there is nothing whatsoever about you that influences God's decision.

So then given all of that, what is it about you, who you are, what you are or what you do, that makes you think you are in that group you call elect?

 

[Arial]

Of course I would disagree with most of that. However, setting that aside, I assume that you think that you are among that group you call elect. Given that fact that you think that election was by God's own sovereign will having absolutely nothing to do with you, who you are or what you are or what you do. In other words there is nothing whatsoever about you that influences God's decision.

So then given all of that, what is it about you, who you are, what you are or what you do, that makes you think you are in that group you call elect?

Only God knows. I sure don't. I only know there is nothing about me that deserved that mercy, or earned that mercy, and that it was in spite of the life I lived before coming to Christ, in spite of the life I would live after coming to Christ, where I have many times stumbled in the sanctification process, or anything good I do. He has a purpose for me so I trust that I will fulfill that purpose.

 

[JIM]

Only God knows. I sure don't. I only know there is nothing about me that deserved that mercy, or earned that mercy, and that it was in spite of the life I lived before coming to Christ, in spite of the life I would live after coming to Christ, where I have many times stumbled in the sanctification process, or anything good I do. He has a purpose for me so I trust that I will fulfill that purpose.

Oh my! Going through life knowing the gospel and the unimaginatively great life in being with Jesus and then having no assurance of ever having that life would be most agonizing.

 

[Arial]

Oh my! Going through life knowing the gospel and the unimaginatively great life in being with Jesus and then having no assurance of ever having that life would be most agonizing.

Is that what I said? Did you forget what the question was that YOU asked?

 

[TibiasDad]

So you believe man does something in order for Salvation to become actual, and what Christ did merely made Salvation within the realm of possibility, but man seals the deal. Thats salvation by man and it dishonors Christ. It makes what man does more effectual unto Salvation than what Christ did.

You don’t believe that whatever man believes in Christ will be, as a result, saved?
(Notice that whoever believes “will be” is the language, not whoever believes “is already saved”. “Will be” is a response action by and of God. You go to school and get good grades, you will be given a degree or diploma.

Since God doesn’t have to save anyone, his doing so is all of grace, and all by him. That he gives the condition of faith to precede his action of saving does not make is less his action alone, nor is there merit in the human action, for the very opportunity to repent and believe is an action of grace!


Doug

 

[prism]

Where does the bible say everyone has a chance at Life (meaning heaven I assume)?

Right, last I checked God deal in certainties, not playing craps.

 

[TibiasDad]

Right, last I checked God deal in certainties, not playing craps.

It is certain that he saves all who are/will be continual believers. That he will save are who believe is certain!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

No one by nature can please God,,

Yes, we all believe this is true! No could could do anything to restore our relationship with God even if our nature didn’t prohibit our desires and awareness of our condition toward God, because he, as the offended party, has all the rights and power on his side. In other words, if God doesn’t want to reconcile with man, it doesn’t matter what you or I can or cannot desire or do. We may dance and cry and plead 24/7/365 for God to reconcile, but it would not be able to make him do what he doesn’t want to do. His desires are most important and the foundation of all that is built upon it!

Doug

 

[prism]

It is certain that he saves all who are/will be continual believers. That he will save are who believe is certain!

Doug

Yes again..

John 5:24
“Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

 

[fastfredy0]

It is certain that he saves all who are/will be continual believers. That he will save are who believe is certain!

All Christendom agrees to that statement.

 

[JIM]

Did you forget what the question was that YOU asked?

No, did you?

 

[Arial]

No, did you?

The question:

So then given all of that, what is it about you, who you are, what you are or what you do, that makes you think you are in that group you call elect?

My response:

Only God knows. I sure don't. I only know there is nothing about me that deserved that mercy, or earned that mercy, and that it was in spite of the life I lived before coming to Christ, in spite of the life I would live after coming to Christ, where I have many times stumbled in the sanctification process, or anything good I do. He has a purpose for me so I trust that I will fulfill that purpose.

Your response to that:

Oh my! Going through life knowing the gospel and the unimaginatively great life in being with Jesus and then having no assurance of ever having that life would be most agonizing.

Do you see even the slightest connection in your conclusion above to the question asked and the answer given?

 

[JIM]

Do you see even the slightest connection in your conclusion above to the question asked and the answer given?

Yes I do. But first please note that I didn't ask why you thought you deserved or earned that mercy. I only asked "what is it about you, who you are, what you are or what you do, that makes you think you are in that group you call elect?" I assume you are convinced that you are among the "elect" according to your definition and meaning of elect. What has convinced you of that?