Romans 9 from a free will prespective

[brightfame52]

A certainty there is one....the sinning thief beside Him on the cross was saved.... else, Jesus lied.... and that cannot be.

Did the thief do anything. You decide. For if he had not spoken at the moment he did, he would be with the other thief in eternity.

Hi there. No the thief didnt do anything to get saved, he was acted upon by the sovereign grace of God, he was saved passively. After he was saved, he gave evidence of it by what he stated.

 

[brightfame52]

Yeah, salvation is conditioned upon believing. Believing is man's doing. Saving is God's doing. Christ's dying allowed for God's doing. God's holiness demands the punishment of sin. Christ's dying was the punishment for all the sins of those who believe.

Again, all this back and forth does nothing to change the fact that you condition salvation on mans doing, ultimately you may as well say, Christs death alone saved no one, because you believe sinners Christ died for shall be lost, die in their sins, even the sins He supposedly died for.

 

[brightfame52]

Salvation is possible because it was in God's plans from before creation. Made possible to man who has the faith to accept the shed blood of Jesus.

Salvation is God's grace. It is the gift of freedom from our sins that Jesus made possible by taking the punishment for our sins on the cross

You teach that Jesus merely made salvation possible, so who makes it a saving reality ?

 

[brightfame52]

Good post (in general).

There's just one thing: where did you get that "translation" of John 3:18? It's truly abysmal.

John 3:18 (EMTV) He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Ah, I've found the translation you used; it's the updated version of the Amplified Bible. I used to have the original version, which is much better here, although still imperfect.

John 3:18 (AMP - original)
18 He who believes in Him [who clings to, trusts in, relies on Him] is not judged [he who trusts in Him never comes up for judgment; for him there is no rejection, no condemnation—he incurs no damnation]; but he who does not believe (cleave to, rely on, trust in Him) is judged already [he has already been convicted and has already received his sentence] because he has not believed in and trusted in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [He is condemned for refusing to let his trust rest in Christ’s name.]

The final bracketed comment is wrong. The reprobate sinner who does not believe is already condemned, because that is his status, being outside of Christ. He stands condemned for all his sins, not merely for refusing to trust in Christ; in fact, refusal assumes that he has heard the gospel; whereas, this passage applies to all unbelievers, whether they have heard the gospel or not.

final Unbelief is a evidence that the person wasn't one of the Sheep Christ laid His life down for Jn 10:26, which means the law of God has condemned him, and so since Christ didnt become a curse for them, the Gift of Faith is withheld. Faith is only given to the sheep whom Christ died for, not the reprobate.

 

[JIM]

No, I disagree that belief and faith are equal to the same.

I don't care what the Greeks said. Pick one or the other word but don't assign 2 of different meanings for I do not believe the Greeks meant to do that

The Greeks didn't say that belief and faith are equal to the same. They didn't even have the two different words belief and faith. They had only one word. And neither do we (me) say that belief and faith are the same. The distinction is belief of something or someone and belief in something of someone. Belief of someone or something is simply belief. Belief in someone or something is faith. That is in either English or Greek.

 

[Manfred]

No, I believed by reading the bible? I was saved by God because I believed in what He said in the Bible.

Ok, good to hear.

I was saved by hearing the word (gospel) preached. Before that day, I had read a lot of bible verses, but could not understand the spiritual truth in those verses.

I suppose you could understand it and believe it while others (atheists etc. are not able to)
Good for you.

 

[Rella]

The Greeks didn't say that belief and faith are equal to the same. They didn't even have the two different words belief and faith. They had only one word. And neither do we (me) say that belief and faith are the same. The distinction is belief of something or someone and belief in something of someone. Belief of someone or something is simply belief. Belief in someone or something is faith. That is in either English or Greek.

Jim,

No sense in argueing this.

I disagree, and therefore we need to agree to disagree.

 

[Rella]

You teach that Jesus merely made salvation possible, so who makes it a saving reality ?

God the Father, of course. Through our faith.

God expects us to respond to Him in faith: “And it is impossible to please God without faith.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

For we walk by faith, not by sight.

Faith begins with God. It is His gift, not the result of any human effort or achievement. God initiates the relationship between Himself and humans by revealing Himself to them (Ecclesiastes 3:11; Romans 1:19–20) and lovingly persuading them to come to Him (Romans 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9; Isaiah 30:18), just as Jesus called the disciples to follow Him (Matthew 4:18–22). But then God expects us to respond to Him in faith: “And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him” (Hebrews 11:6, NLT). Failure to trust God was at the heart of the first sin (Genesis 3:1–7). Ever since the fall of man, God has been calling people back to faith—to a place of trust and obedience to Him.

 

[JIM]

Ok, good to hear.

I was saved by hearing the word (gospel) preached. Before that day, I had read a lot of bible verses, but could not understand the spiritual truth in those verses.

I suppose you could understand it and believe it while others (atheists etc. are not able to)
Good for you.

Did you think you believe because of what was said in the Bible or because you think God simply imputed belief into your mind? It sounds to me like the latter.

I never ceased to be amazed that so many think God cannot communicate in any way whatever that the unregenerate could comprehend. That whole scenario is not a failure of man's ability but rather a limitation placed upon God's ability.

 

[JIM]

If faith is a gift, then there really is no purpose or value of just about anything in the Old Covenant or much of the New Covenant, It might be interesting from the point of history, but it serves no real purpose with respect to salvation.

John said in 20:30 that "these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." But if believing is a gift, none of that would be necessary.

 

[TibiasDad]

How you can think that random possibility rules God's actions, is beyond me.

God's will rules God's actions. It's not a random possibility, it is a very specific possibility; if we believe!

It is a possibility because God has graciously allowed for it, but is yet to happen.
It is a specific possibility because it is a singular contingency of God's own choosing.
It is a specific possibility because only humans can believe.

God knows who will believe or disbelieve. From his perfect perception it is certain; randomness is is only the human perspective. God has set the parameter's of how he saves: By grace through faith in Christ. Without God, nothing is possible; without faith in God nothing will happen!


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Yes

We are.

Lucky for us belief is granted or given by God.

No where does scripture say the we must be given belief! The ability to believe is axiomatic. Indeed, it is only by grace that we can believe, but the ability granted by grace is an axiom.

Doug

 

[fastfredy0]

God knows who will believe or disbelieve. From his perfect perception it is certain; randomness is is only the human perspective. God has set the parameter's of how he saves: By grace through faith in Christ. Without God, nothing is possible; without faith in God nothing will happen!

... and how does God know which men will be saved through grace by faith before men or creation existed?

 

[fastfredy0]

No where does scripture say the we must be given belief!

• John 1:12-13 says we are born again by the will of God and then goes on to state we are not saved by the will of man.
• John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.” Clearly this verse defines faith as a work. Thus faith must originate from God since God’s grace does not include man works (Galatians 5:2).
• John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh conveys no benefit [it is of no account]. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life [providing eternal life]… 65 And He was saying, “This is the reason why I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him [that is, unless he is enabled to do so] by the Father.”
• Acts 3:16 And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health and complete wholeness in your presence.
• Acts 13:48b and all those who had been appointed (designated, ordained) to eternal life [by God] believed [in Jesus as the Christ and their Savior].
• Act 18:27 When he arrived, he was a great help to those who, through grace, had believed and had followed Jesus as Lord and Savior, The source of “grace” is God; otherwise, it is not GRACE

Etc. etc. .. yahda, yahda, yahda...
.... when you exegete these I have 40 more .... and more after that

 

[brightfame52]

God the Father, of course. Through our faith.

God expects us to respond to Him in faith: “And it is impossible to please God without faith.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

For we walk by faith, not by sight.

Faith begins with God. It is His gift, not the result of any human effort or achievement. God initiates the relationship between Himself and humans by revealing Himself to them (Ecclesiastes 3:11; Romans 1:19–20) and lovingly persuading them to come to Him (Romans 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9; Isaiah 30:18), just as Jesus called the disciples to follow Him (Matthew 4:18–22). But then God expects us to respond to Him in faith: “And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him” (Hebrews 11:6, NLT). Failure to trust God was at the heart of the first sin (Genesis 3:1–7). Ever since the fall of man, God has been calling people back to faith—to a place of trust and obedience to Him.

Sounds like you are saying your faith makes it , Salvation, a reality, but Christs death only made it possible. Is that what you believe ? Yes or no

 

[brightfame52]

No where does scripture say the we must be given belief! The ability to believe is axiomatic. Indeed, it is only by grace that we can believe, but the ability granted by grace is an axiom.

Doug

Again, all your spinning means nothing, you still believe that Christs death in and of itself saved no one.

 

[Rella]

Sounds like you are saying your faith makes it , Salvation, a reality, but Christs death only made it possible. Is that what you believe ? Yes or no

No, of course not... but Christs without Christ's death and shedding His blood we would ... none of us... on the Gentile side of the aisle
be saved or have the ability

 

[Rella]

... and how does God know which men will be saved through grace by faith before men or creation existed?

I do not know. I was not there.

God knows everything from past present and future....

Answer this please.

When we die our souls go back to God who gave them..... Do you think, as they are spirit and not flesh and blood, they were created? Like the angels? or do you think they may always have been?

 

[brightfame52]

No, of course not... but Christs without Christ's death and shedding His blood we would ... none of us... on the Gentile side of the aisle
be saved or have the ability

have the ability ? What are you talking about, are people saved by their ability ? Not Christs ability

 

[TibiasDad]

... and how does God know which men will be saved through grace by faith before men or creation existed?

That we cannot know while in this life.

Doug