Romans 9 from a free will prespective

[fastfredy0]

You assume that God cannot reveal Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior to anyone at any time?

He revealed Himself to Abraham and others.

Well, your incorrect assumption misses some of the context of my posts which is understandable given the format of forums. I said that on VERY rare occasions God interjects Himself supernaturally to save a person, though my guess is the Vegas is giving 10,000 to 1 odds against it.
None of God's sheep are lost ... in the 1200s in North America I am saying there were VERY few (maybe zero) sheep.

 

[Manfred]

The question is not "was Abram (his original name) saved" since God specifically called him.
The question is: Did any of the 2 million people living at the time have a chance at salvation other than a direct appearance of God, like Abram had? [How?]

Not in dispute.
If God chose to reveal Himself he could use a donkey to speak.

THIS QUESTION PRE-JESUS (for those that have no Preacher/Prophet):

• Romans 10:14 [NLT] "But how can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them?"

If God chose to reveal Himself he could use a donkey to speak.

Look up the storyline of the books "Heavenly man", Bruchko, and I dare call Him Father.

There is no reason to believe that God cannot reveal Himself in a dream, or while you are riding your horse on your way to kill Christians.

Thank you for correcting me re. Abram/Abraham

 

[Manfred]

Well, your incorrect assumption misses some of the context of my posts which is understandable given the format of forums. I said that on VERY rare occasions God interjects Himself supernaturally to save a person, though my guess is the Vegas is giving 10,000 to 1 odds against it.
None of God's sheep are lost ... in the 1200s in North America I am saying there were VERY few (maybe zero) sheep.

My dispute is that there may be 1.
Perhaps his horse spoke to him.

I don't presume to know if God has had elect people in far off places, many moons ago.
I am saying if He had, He would have revealed Himself to them.

Thank you for correcting me on my assumptions. I will endeavor to stop assuming.

 

[atpollard]

Love the juxtaposition.

Happy to make you happy.

 

[atpollard]

Not in dispute.
If God chose to reveal Himself he could use a donkey to speak.

I love that answer! (... and it was a great story as well.)

Look up the storyline of the books "Heavenly man", Bruchko, and I dare call Him Father.

There is no reason to believe that God cannot reveal Himself in a dream, or while you are riding your horse on your way to kill Christians.

Thank you for correcting me re. Abram/Abraham

FYI: No correction intended. I just wanted to point out that he was saved the moment God called him (when his name happened to still be Abram) ... even before he DEMONSTRATED that faith and was renamed Abraham. I was just building on your solid foundation.

I still have to wonder if Theophanies/Angels are the only means of salvation prior to the Jesus or outside of the LAW?
That leaves a LOT of people throughout history with NO HOPE (or a LOT of Theophanies).

 

[Carbon]

Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Great scriptures. Do you disagree with them?

 

[Manfred]

I love that answer! (... and it was a great story as well.)


FYI: No correction intended. I just wanted to point out that he was saved the moment God called him (when his name happened to still be Abram) ... even before he DEMONSTRATED that faith and was renamed Abraham. I was just building on your solid foundation.

I still have to wonder if Theophanies/Angels are the only means of salvation prior to the Jesus or outside of the LAW?
That leaves a LOT of people throughout history with NO HOPE (or a LOT of Theophanies).

No hope.
When God has mercy and compassion on a vessel, He will have mercy and compassion on that vessel.
Those made for destruction serve another purpose we are not yet aware off. I cannot answer back to God. Some things we have to accept, one day we will see more clearly... This I know, He will be glorified whichever way we look at it.

Thanks for your gracious response.

 

[JIM]

Great scriptures. Do you disagree with them?

Do you?

 

[JIM]

I have taken the following from my bible to address your view on the subject:

Romans 8:28-30 [NASB]​

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers [and sisters;] and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.​

In all your underlining, you failed to point out the criticaql point there, namely, about whom Paul was speaking .

Romans 8:28-30 [NASB]​

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers [and sisters;] and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.​

​

As Paul clearly states there it is to those who love God that He accredited all those really marvelous gifts.​

 

[Carbon]

Do you?

Not at all

 

[JIM]

Not at all

Okay.

 

[atpollard]

Romans 8:28-30 [NASB]And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers [and sisters;] and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.As Paul clearly states there it is to those who love God that He accredited all those really marvelous gifts.

Romans 8:28-30 [NASB]
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers [and sisters;] and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Those who love God are those who are called according to His purpose. God called, God's purpose ... we respond in Love like Ephesians 2:1-10 (God made us alive, God gave us the gift, we respond by walking in the good works which God prepared).

"We love, because He first loved us." (1 John 4:19)

 

[JIM]

Romans 8:28-30 [NASB]
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers [and sisters;] and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Those who love God are those who are called according to His purpose. God called, God's purpose ... we respond in Love like Ephesians 2:1-10 (God made us alive, God gave us the gift, we respond by walking in the good works which God prepared).

"We love, because He first loved us." (1 John 4:19)

Those who are called according to His purpose are those who love God. And yes those who love God love Him because He first loved them.

 

[brightfame52]

Possibility is a construct of a human point of view; God knows who will be saved so from his perspective, the salvation of those who believe (actively and persistently) is done from his perspective, thus pragmatically, a finished event.

We however, as the gospel goes out, can see it as a potential, because we do not know what a person will do with the gospel. Thus we say, in faith, you can be saved; there is the real potential for anyone to be saved, and if they become believers, they will be saved.

The main difference between us, brightframe, is the means of how God knows. Is it by pure foreknowing, or by God’s personally predetermining the end result.


Doug

Thats a bunch of double talking, you believe Christs death merely made salvation possible. You have to believe man makes it actual, hence man is his saviour according to all your doubletalk.

 

[Arial]

In all your underlining, you failed to point out the criticaql point there, namely, about whom Paul was speaking .

Romans 8:28-30 [NASB]​

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers [and sisters;] and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.​

​

As Paul clearly states there it is to those who love God that He accredited all those really marvelous gifts.​

Who are the those (ones) who He foreknew? Who are those (one) He predestined to be conformed to Christ's image (and what does conformed to His image mean?). Who are the those (one's He called and justified and glorified? They are the ones who love God. There is nothing in that scripture that says they are those ones because of their having loved God first.

 

[Arial]

As Paul clearly states there it is to those who love God that He accredited all those really marvelous gifts.

That would mean we earned a reward by loving God first. We earned His love.

 

[JIM]

Who are the those (ones) who He foreknew?

Who are any that God didn't/doesn't foreknow?

 

[JIM]

That would mean we earned a reward by loving God first. We earned His love.

Where do you read anything like that?

 

[Arial]

Where do you read anything like that?

Romans 8:28-30 [NASB]And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers [and sisters;] and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.As Paul clearly states there it is to those who love God that He accredited all those really marvelous gifts.

 

[Arial]

Who are any that God didn't/doesn't foreknow?

In that passage they are the ones He predestined and called and justified.