Romans 9 from a free will prespective

[atpollard]

You have the cart before the horse, which is typical of your philosophical approach as a Calvinist!

I could be wrong, but that might also be the approach of a God that writes names in a book and THEN creates the world.

 

[Carbon]

`I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in me through their word;...` (John 17: 20)

Which are also those given him
By the Father.

 

[fastfredy0]

Then we have `your` Indian, or African in deepest, darkest Africa, or the aborigines of OZ here, or the Eskimos etc. Also, all those born before Christ was manifest, lived, died, rose and ascended. What of all those you ask? And a very important question that is?

To keep things simple I avoid the definition of the salvific content of faith that saves people before Christ. This information, though of interest, is not needed for the point I was making ... that point being that a 1282 N.A. Indian is doomed to hell as faith cometh by hearing and that Indian never heard the salvific gospel. Aside: Yeah, there is anecdotal evidence of VERY rare exceptions.

Now, we know that `...since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen,` (NKJ) - `...namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived,...` (ESV) (Rom. 1: 20)

Thus, people who live right according to their God-given conscience will be judged accordingly - by their works (revealing their motives).

True ... and they all go to hell as we are saved by FAITH ALONE. No ones works are sufficient Rom 3:10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one.

And another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS, by the things which were written in the books.

Yeah, the 1282 N.A. Indian and all others without exception who never heard of Christ are judged by their works and go to hell. Rom 3:10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one.

The important point is that whoever believes there is God and lives right under that, if that is all God has revealed to him, then that is all God required of your Indian.

You believe in WORKS salvation as an another method to merit heaven. I don't. We both claim the bible backs us up. Their are plenty of verses saying one must know of Christ to be saved.

• John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
• John 12:48 Whoever rejects Me and refuses to accept My teachings, has one who judges him; the very word that I spoke will judge and condemn him on the last day.
• John 3:18 Whoever believes and has decided to trust in Him [as personal Savior and Lord] is not judged [for this one, there is no judgment, no rejection, no condemnation]; but the one who does not believe [and has decided to reject Him as personal Savior and Lord] is judged already [that one has been convicted and sentenced], because he has not believed and trusted in the name of the [One and] only begotten Son of God [the One who is truly unique, the only One of His kind, the One who alone can save him].

Inclusivism depreciates the Trinity. This depreciates the Incarnation, depreciates the work and atonement of Christ, denies the uniqueness of the Bible, denies the necessity of gospel truth, substitutes the same old philosophical junk about the 'universal logos' at work in all religious systems. John MacArthur

Given the following hypothetical:
1282 N.A. Indian does the required works needed for salvation per your definition ... then a missionary tells the Indian about Christ. The Indian does not believe the missionary.
Question 1: Is the Indian still saved by his works (give scripture)?
Question 2: if you answered "NO" I ask .... should missionaries be trained to see if someone is first saved by their works and if so, should they not tell that person about Christ because the person is already saved and telling him about Christ could lead to the loss of his salvation?

 

[brightfame52]

Splitting theological hairs! You cannot be saved unless salvation is possible; in other words, there is no “will be” without the foundation of “can be” as a framework. The contingency of “whoever believes” is the indication of potential, of possibility, of “can be” being the logical foundation of “will be”.

You have the cart before the horse, which is typical of your philosophical approach as a Calvinist!

Doug

So would you say that all what Jesus Christ did to save sinners, just made salvation possible ? Yes or No and then explain why Thanks

 

[TibiasDad]

So would you say that all what Jesus Christ did to save sinners, just made salvation possible ? Yes or No and then explain why Thanks

Possibility is a construct of a human point of view; God knows who will be saved so from his perspective, the salvation of those who believe (actively and persistently) is done from his perspective, thus pragmatically, a finished event.

We however, as the gospel goes out, can see it as a potential, because we do not know what a person will do with the gospel. Thus we say, in faith, you can be saved; there is the real potential for anyone to be saved, and if they become believers, they will be saved.

The main difference between us, brightframe, is the means of how God knows. Is it by pure foreknowing, or by God’s personally predetermining the end result.


Doug

 

[Marilyn C]

Which are also those given him
By the Father.

And scripture for that please.

 

[Carbon]

And scripture for that please.

Sure. I'm headed out for bible study, but when I return I will.

 

[Marilyn C]

To keep things simple I avoid the definition of the salvific content of faith that saves people before Christ. This information, though of interest, is not needed for the point I was making ... that point being that a 1282 N.A. Indian is doomed to hell as faith cometh by hearing and that Indian never heard the salvific gospel. Aside: Yeah, there is anecdotal evidence of VERY rare exceptions.


True ... and they all go to hell as we are saved by FAITH ALONE. No ones works are sufficient Rom 3:10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one.



Yeah, the 1282 N.A. Indian and all others without exception who never heard of Christ are judged by their works and go to hell. Rom 3:10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one.



You believe in WORKS salvation as an another method to merit heaven. I don't. We both claim the bible backs us up. Their are plenty of verses saying one must know of Christ to be saved.

• John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
• John 12:48 Whoever rejects Me and refuses to accept My teachings, has one who judges him; the very word that I spoke will judge and condemn him on the last day.
• John 3:18 Whoever believes and has decided to trust in Him [as personal Savior and Lord] is not judged [for this one, there is no judgment, no rejection, no condemnation]; but the one who does not believe [and has decided to reject Him as personal Savior and Lord] is judged already [that one has been convicted and sentenced], because he has not believed and trusted in the name of the [One and] only begotten Son of God [the One who is truly unique, the only One of His kind, the One who alone can save him].

Inclusivism depreciates the Trinity. This depreciates the Incarnation, depreciates the work and atonement of Christ, denies the uniqueness of the Bible, denies the necessity of gospel truth, substitutes the same old philosophical junk about the 'universal logos' at work in all religious systems. John MacArthur

Given the following hypothetical:
1282 N.A. Indian does the required works needed for salvation per your definition ... then a missionary tells the Indian about Christ. The Indian does not believe the missionary.
Question 1: Is the Indian still saved by his works (give scripture)?
Question 2: if you answered "NO" I ask .... should missionaries be trained to see if someone is first saved by their works and if so, should they not tell that person about Christ because the person is already saved and telling him about Christ could lead to the loss of his salvation?

You must have missed this comment I made - Thus, people who live right according to their God-given conscience will be judged accordingly - by their works (revealing their motives).

`I will show you my faith by my works.` (James 2: 18)

We agree that none are righteous, however God makes people righteous -

- through faith in Him shown by obedience to what He says. (Abel, Enoch, Noah, and your Indian etc)
- through faith in Him shown by obedience to what He says. (those in the Body of Christ)

The difference is their different inheritances. All are saved BECAUSE of Christ`s sacrifice, however it is God who makes people righteous as they believe in Him and obey what He says.

The missionaries (and we are all missionaries in this world) need to make disciples, teaching them...etc about the Lord, His character and His purposes.

Who are your disciples? And are you helping them to make disciples?

 

[Carbon]

And scripture for that please.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44.
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. John 6:65
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: John 10:27
John 10:29


For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Eph 2:10.

 

[Marilyn C]

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44.
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. John 6:65
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: John 10:27
John 10:29


For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Eph 2:10.

Thank you for those scriptures of the Father drawing people to the Lord. And that can be whosoever as the Father draws them. (John 3: 16)

So, what about before the Lord was manifest on earth?

 

[Carbon]

Thank you for those scriptures of the Father drawing people to the Lord. And that can be whosoever as the Father draws them. (John 3: 16)

Yes, we do not know the chosen, only God does. If someone believes and comes, they are the whosoever.

So, what about before the Lord was manifest on earth?

What do you mean?

 

[Marilyn C]

Yes, we do not know the chosen, only God does. If someone believes and comes, they are the whosoever.

What do you mean?

Yes, if someone believes and comes then they are the chosen.

You quoted these scriptures, however they are referring to when the Lord was manifest on earth and after the Lord has ascended. What about people who believed in God before Christ was manifest on the earth?

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44.
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. John 6:65
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: John 10:27
John 10:29

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

Yes, if someone believes and comes then they are the chosen.

Believes AND comes? What is the difference between these two, on your view?

 

[Marilyn C]

Believes AND comes? What is the difference between these two, on your view?

I was only copying what carbon said and rephrasing it. I see no difference and perhaps we should ask Carbon.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I could be wrong, but that might also be the approach of a God that writes names in a book and THEN creates the world.

I have taken the following from my Website to address that comment.

Rev 13:8 and Rev 17:8 and the Book of Life​

Revelation has two verses that appear to have a Deterministic meaning:

Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

It appears at first glance that these scriptures support predestination. Saying the names of the damned we not in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. However as pointed out at Stack Exchange the actual meaning of the word apo G575 the word "from" can have the connotation of referring to a span of time leading out from that place over time. As we see in the following two scriptures:

Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

What this shows is that both Rev 13:8 and Rev 17:8 need not mean the names were in the book at the beginning, but rather were entered in from the point of creation on, they were inscribed as time went by, or in the case of the damned were not entered as time passed.

 

[JIM]

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44.
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. John 6:65
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: John 10:27
John 10:29


For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Eph 2:10.

Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

 

[atpollard]

I have taken the following from my Website to address that comment.

I have taken the following from my bible to address your view on the subject:

Romans 8:28-30 [NASB]​

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers [and sisters;] and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.​

​

Ephesians 1:3-14 [NASB]​

Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons [and daughters] through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He favored us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our wrongdoings, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He set forth in Him, regarding [His] plan of the fullness of the times, to bring all things together in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in the Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise, who is a first installment of our inheritance, in regard to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.​

So I am to believe that God had no pre-ordained plan to save ME (specifically and individually) but that I just somehow "got lucky" and "stumbled" upon this grace that was laying in the grass which my parents and grandparents and all their siblings and all my siblings have somehow managed to avoid stepping in?

To quote my daughter: "That makes my heart sad."

 

[Manfred]

So how does a 1282 N.A. indian seek God that he might be saved? (this assume anyone seeks God which Romans 3:17 suggests strongly to me)

You assume that God cannot reveal Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior to anyone at any time?

He revealed Himself to Abraham and others.

 

[atpollard]

You assume that God cannot reveal Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior to anyone at any time?

He revealed Himself to Abraham and others.

The question is not "was Abram (his original name) saved" since God specifically called him.
The question is: Did any of the 2 million people living at the time have a chance at salvation other than a direct appearance of God, like Abram had? [How?]

THIS QUESTION PRE-JESUS (for those that have no Preacher/Prophet):

• Romans 10:14 [NLT] "But how can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them?"

 

[fastfredy0]

I have taken the following from my Website to address that comment.

I have taken the following from my bible to address your view on the subject:

Love the juxtaposition.