Romans 9 from a free will prespective

[David1701]

Jesus is LORD, and he wanted to gather Jerusalem under his Wings; but they would not. I think God does Hope All will be Saved; and I'm a 5-Point Calvinist...

Ah, not quite...

The Lord wanted to gather Jerusalem's children (the followers of the rulers) under his wings, but Jerusalem (i.e. its religious rulers - the Pharisees and Saducees) were unwilling.

Hope, in the NT sense, is steadfast confidence for the future; it's not wishful thinking.

 

[atpollard]

Re: Say a 1282 North American Indian for example. What would that Indian do (or have done to him) to be saved?
Where does the bible say everyone has a chance at Life (meaning heaven I assume)?

So how does a 1282 N.A. indian seek God that he might be saved? (this assume anyone seeks God which Romans 3:17 suggests strongly to me)

The same way Abram was saved.
The same way an infant that dies at 4 hours old is saved.
The same way YOU and I were saved.

GOD will have mercy on whom He will have mercy:

• Romans 9:14-18 [NASB] 14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? Far from it! 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION." 16 So then, [it does] not [depend] on the [person] who wants [it] nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY REASON I RAISED YOU UP, IN ORDER TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE EARTH." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Through God's GRACE (unmerited favor):

• Ephesians 2:8-9 [NASB] 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this [is] not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

According to God's working of God's plan:

• Romans 8:28-30 [NASB] 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers [and sisters;] 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

So are we ALL* saved by our WORKS or GOD's MERCY/GRACE?​

(sorry, I just couldn't hold it in any longer - Soli Deo Gloria!)
*ALL = everyone that God chooses to save!

 

[fastfredy0]

Yes ... but, should we not want what God wants and mind if we get it wrong?

Yes ... God's ways are perfect and best and for me to even fantasize of a different scenario than what God has ordained is inferior and silly .... nevertheless, it's a silliness that titillates my mind.
I also entertain the idea that my theology is imperfect and other possibilities exist (though I am 99.9999% sure universalism is "poop" )

 

[ReverendRV]

Ah, not quite...

The Lord wanted to gather Jerusalem's children (the followers of the rulers) under his wings, but Jerusalem (i.e. its religious rulers - the Pharisees and Saducees) were unwilling.

Hope, in the NT sense, is steadfast confidence for the future; it's not wishful thinking.

Strong’s Definitions
†θέλω thélō, thel'-o; apparently strengthened from the alternate form of G138; to determine (as an active option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014 properly denotes rather a passive acquiescence in objective considerations), i.e. choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication, to wish, i.e. be inclined to (sometimes adverbially, gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism, to delight in:—desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, - ling(-ly)).

G2309 - thelō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G2309 - θέλω thélō, thel'-o; apparently strengthened from the alternate form of ; to determine (as an active option from subjective impulse; whereas properly denotes rather a passive acquiescence in objective considerations), i.e. choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication...

www.blueletterbible.org

God can want something and not get it. When a Translation uses the word "Longed", I can read the Verse as the LORD wishing he can gather people under his Wings...

 

[fastfredy0]

*ALL = everyone that God chooses to save!

Definitely
.... and there is a small chance that the 1282 was saved by a visit from Christ Himself; but that is very unlikely though occasionally does occur IMO. But empirical evidence is that such a thing is HIGHLY improbable, that God grace was not extended to people who never heard of Christ from other humans. It seems that God has given man the task of spreading His salvific gospel the vast majority of the time.

The same way an infant that dies at 4 hours old is saved.

Hmmmm ....
Premise 1: We are saved by faith alone
Premise 2: 4 hour old baby is incapable of formulating thought to the extent needed to be saved
Conclusion: one of the premises is wrong OR the 4 hour old baby cannot be saved

 

[atpollard]

Premise 1: We are saved by faith alone

Ephesians 2:8-9 ... "gift" is neuter (neither male nor female), the other words are all male or female [Greek grammar thing], QED. the whole shebang is a gift (including FAITH).

• Where is the verse that says God cannot give His gift of "saved by grace through faith, not of yourself" to a dying infant or a pagan stumbling in darkness, groping for Him?
• I cannot say with any certainty that God HAS GIVEN the gift to ANYONE (except me - the only heart that I have access to ... and a thief on a cross).
• I can say such a gift is not beyond His power.

 

[atpollard]

• Romans 9:14-18 [NASB] 14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? Far from it! 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION." 16 So then, [it does] not [depend] on the [person] who wants [it] nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY REASON I RAISED YOU UP, IN ORDER TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE EARTH." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
• Ephesians 2:8-9 [NASB] 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this [is] not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
• Romans 8:28-30 [NASB] 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers [and sisters;] 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Does WHOMEVER mean "whomever?
Does GIFT mean "gift"?
Does WHOM HE mean "whom He"?

The heart and soul of the 5-Solas!
"God does as He pleases, and He does it right well." - Corrie Ten Boom

 

[David1701]

Strong’s Definitions
†θέλω thélō, thel'-o; apparently strengthened from the alternate form of G138; to determine (as an active option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014 properly denotes rather a passive acquiescence in objective considerations), i.e. choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication, to wish, i.e. be inclined to (sometimes adverbially, gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism, to delight in:—desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, - ling(-ly)).

G2309 - thelō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G2309 - θέλω thélō, thel'-o; apparently strengthened from the alternate form of ; to determine (as an active option from subjective impulse; whereas properly denotes rather a passive acquiescence in objective considerations), i.e. choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication...

www.blueletterbible.org

God can want something and not get it. When a Translation uses the word "Longed", I can read the Verse as the LORD wishing he can gather people under his Wings...

Jesus did gather the people he wanted under his wings, despite the unwillingness of the religious rulers of Jerusalem.

John 6:37-39 (WEB)
37 All those whom the Father gives me will come to me. He who comes to me I will in no way throw out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.
39 This is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day.

 

[fastfredy0]

Ephesians 2:8-9 ... "gift" is neuter (neither male nor female), the other words are all male or female [Greek grammar thing], QED. the whole shebang is a gift (including FAITH).

• Where is the verse that says God cannot give His gift of "saved by grace through faith, not of yourself" to a dying infant or a pagan stumbling in darkness, groping for Him?

Agreed ... the "whole shebang" (salvation) is a gift, the "whole shebang" (salvation) is by grace.

What are the signs that God has given a person grace/ the gift of salvation? I say it is faith in Christ. There is no verse say saying God cannot give His gift to a dying infant. There is not verse saying God has given His gift to a dying infant. We don't know for sure. I know using logic that if babies are saved it is not by Faith Alone. Aside: There are verses saying the baby was conceived in sin.

• I can say such a gift is not beyond His power.

  Agreed, God makes the rules. The knowledge of the rules that we are aware of are what He's told us of His attributes. If babies are saved then it is not by faith. If babies are saved the "perseverance of the saints" needs a caveat. If babies are saved then 95% of the human population in heaven are babies (my estimate) who never heard of Christ till they were inside the heavenly gates. .... hmmm, if babies are saved then I suppose I wish I died in child birth or was aborted. In a sick sense, aborting babies is a wondrous gift I suppose assuming babies or saved.

But, we're getting off topic IMO. I said I believe a 1282 N.A. Indian is going to hell because he never heard of Christ. I grant there is a minuscule possibility that Christ may have proclaimed the relevant salvific gospel to said Indian and caused said Indian to believe; the salvific gift causing said Indian to be in heaven today. Again, I don't like the Indian's odds.

I cannot say with any certainty that God HAS GIVEN the gift to ANYONE (except me - the only heart that I have access to ... and a thief on a cross).

I have reason for hope. I don't have 100.00% certainty. IF I had your experience of coming to Christ, I would by closer to certainty. Love that story. You da man (technically, God's the man but whatever).

 

[atpollard]

I have reason for hope. I don't have 100.00% certainty. IF I had your experience of coming to Christ, I would by closer to certainty. Love that story. You da man (technically, God's the man but whatever).

I believe that God saved me to prove to Satan that God could snatch ANYONE away from 'old scratch' ... sort of JOB in reverse.

 

[atpollard]

Jesus did gather the people he wanted under his wings, despite the unwillingness of the religious rulers of Jerusalem.

I seriously LOVE that point of view of that verse.
I will DEFINITELY be taking a harder look at that from your new perspective!

 

[atpollard]

Agreed, God makes the rules. The knowledge of the rules that we are aware of are what He's told us of His attributes. If babies are saved then it is not by faith. If babies are saved the "perseverance of the saints" needs a caveat. If babies are saved then 95% of the human population in heaven are babies (my estimate) who never heard of Christ till they were inside the heavenly gates. .... hmmm, if babies are saved then I suppose I wish I died in child birth or was aborted. In a sick sense, aborting babies is a wondrous gift I suppose assuming babies or saved.

I think it a mistake of equal and opposite magnitude to say "all babies are saved" as "no babies are saved". We do not believe that God gives FAITH to ALL that hear or God gives FAITH to NONE that hear; we believe that God gives FAITH to all who were preordained to receive it according to the council of His will.

I posit nothing more or less than the same criteria for ALL whom God preordained (starting with Adam and ending when Jesus returns). If BABIES are saved, then it is "those babies that God preordained according to the council of His will". If those that have only the testimony of creation and grope in the darkness are saved, then it is "those that God preordained according to the council of His will".

If a baby is saved, it will not likely remain a mindless lump of cells squirming on the floor of Heaven (to the Glory of God) forever ... God probably has better plans than that. Even I can think of ideas to bring more Glory to God and good to His children ... so His plans MUST BE better than mine!

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Why does God blind someone who suppresses the Light?

The reason is God does not want to save the one who suppresses the knowledge that God has given.

Rom 1:18-19 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

Rom 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

We see this at work at the time of the Anti-Christ.

2Th 2:9-12 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God sends strong delusion to those who did not delight in His message but delighted in sin instead.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

... and what chance was a person who lived and died having never heard of Christ given to attain eternal life in heaven? .... Say a 1282 North American Indian for example. What would that Indian do (or have done to him) to be saved?
Where does the bible say everyone has a chance at Life (meaning heaven I assume)?

I have heard of people in Muslim nations that are 100% closed off to the gospel, being sent visions from God. One man had a series of dreams where He received the whole gospel of John, which he wrote down. When a missionary did get to him he showed them the dreams he had written. It is not impossible for God to speak to people. I know of a couple in church, who only came becasue they heard God tell them "Go to church!", this was while they were drinking beer. God can say more than three words.

 

[Carbon]

Romans 9 from a free will perspective, the idea that God gives all a chance of life to all. So I will do my best to do so.

Would you also explain why, since God wants to save all, according to you, Jesus does not pray for all?
Jesus only prays for those that the Father has given him.

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. John 17:9.

The passage goes on to say, it is up to God whom He saves, or hardens.

So if God hardens some, that's giving the hardened an equal chance to be saved?

It is God’s right to decree the Gentles as joint heirs with the Jews, and His right to harden any who sins.

So, some don't sin?

Again this is not suggesting that God has decreed some to life, and some to death.

No, of course not. Because that is unacceptable, isn't it? Who is God to decree anything?

For all men are given an equal chance of life, whosoever believes can be saved.

Good ol' soverigne man.

But rather points out the fact that it is God’s choice which way He saves.

How many different ways does God save?

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

It is not a Calvinistic thought, that man’s actions have no part in the salvation journey.

You will not find that thought in any Calvinist literature.

[The apostle Paul] was just saying salvation is "not of works but of him who gives the call.” It is by grace, not by prior effort or fleshly affiliation.

But that, ironically, is a Calvinistic thought.

For all men are given an equal chance of life. Whosoever believes can be saved.

I agree. All who believe will be saved. But who is it that believes?

The sheep (cf. Acts 13:48).

"You do not believe because you are not my sheep" (John 10:26). If you are one of the Father's sheep (v. 29) which he gives to the Son, then you WILL believe (cf. John 6:37), for Jesus will not fail to save any that the Father gives him.

The reason is, God does not want to save the one who suppresses the knowledge that God has given.

Wait. I thought God wanted to saved all?

 

[Marilyn C]

Would you also explain why, since God wants to save all, according to you, Jesus does not pray for all?
Jesus only prays for those that the Father has given him.

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. John 17:9.

`I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in me through their word;...` (John 17: 20)

 

[Marilyn C]

But, we're getting off topic IMO. I said I believe a 1282 N.A. Indian is going to hell because he never heard of Christ. I grant there is a minuscule possibility that Christ may have proclaimed the relevant salvific gospel to said Indian and caused said Indian to believe; the salvific gift causing said Indian to be in heaven today. Again, I don't like the Indian's odds.

Hi fastfredyO,

I don`t think we`re had the privilege of talking, but I have read your conversations and you seem `friendly,` So here goes.

I`m sure we would both agree that it is `because` of Christ`s sacrifice that anyone is saved. However not all know about that. God is omniscient (all knowing) and thus knows about this.

We see God revealing the importance of sacrifice and obedience to people like Abel, Seth, Enoch, Noah, Abraham etc. These all believed God and obeyed what He required of them. (Heb. 11)

Then we have `your` Indian, or African in deepest, darkest Africa, or the aborigines of OZ here, or the Eskimos etc. Also, all those born before Christ was manifest, lived, died, rose and ascended. What of all those you ask? And a very important question that is?

Now, we know that `...since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen,` (NKJ) - `...namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived,...` (ESV) (Rom. 1: 20)

Thus, people who live right according to their God-given conscience will be judged accordingly - by their works (revealing their motives).

`Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead small and great standing before God, and the books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS, by the things which were written in the books.

The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS. Then death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And anyone not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.` (Rev. 20: 11 - 15)

The Body of Christ is not here nor are the Old Testament saints, but everyone else will be judged as to THEIR WORKS, and thus why they did them. If your Indian lived right by his God-given conscience having perceived God`s moral nature (Rom. 1: 20) then he will be saved `because` of Christ`s sacrifice that covers people knowing and not knowing.

The important point is that whoever believes there is God and lives right under that, if that is all God has revealed to him, then that is all God required of your Indian.

He wont be in heaven but on the earth as one in the nations of the saved.

`And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honour into it.` (Rev. 21: 24)

 

[FutureAndAHope]

So if God hardens some, that's giving the hardened an equal chance to be saved?

Yes, it is because all people are given the choice to acknowledge God. It works similar to the following:

Job 36:9-12 Then He tells them their work and their transgressions—That they have acted defiantly. He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

Note the scripture shows how this type of person is saved. But it can apply generally to general salvation.

a) He also opens their ear to instruction
b) And commands that they turn from iniquity

Then comes the choice:

c) If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures
d) But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

The same man is given two outcomes based on his own choice.

If you look at Romans, you will see this principle in action:

Rom 1:18-22 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools,

a) God gets angry when
b) He has clearly shown who He is
c) If people know who God is suppress the truth
d) They are given to a darkened heart

The person in Job is given the same goodwill as any man, but their own choice of either listening to God or not determines if they are saved.

As Jesus said a person not "seeing" has no sin.

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, 'We see.' Therefore your sin remains.

John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.

John 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father.

All will be given sight, it depends on what we do with it. Whether we forsake our sins and follow Christ or live in them. Turning to sin results in blindness, turning to God in sight.

 

[TibiasDad]

And there you go again! The first phrase is not in the Bible. And you cannot logically demonstrate it. And the second is not the result of the first. The way you say the second phrase does demonstrate the weakness of your philosophical stance: Whosoever believes WILL BE saved —not "CAN BE saved"!

Splitting theological hairs! You cannot be saved unless salvation is possible; in other words, there is no “will be” without the foundation of “can be” as a framework. The contingency of “whoever believes” is the indication of potential, of possibility, of “can be” being the logical foundation of “will be”.

You have the cart before the horse, which is typical of your philosophical approach as a Calvinist!

Doug