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Romans 9 from a free will prespective

Do you know what Compatibilism is Jim? Do you know the differences between this and determinists? Without looking it up? Because you are being misleading.
Yeah, it is something like a person is free to do what it will (free will). But what he wills is not up to him, it is up to God. What a copout.
 
Say more, because at this point I can see you really have no idea what you’re talking about. 🙂
I will come back later and provide more on this subject.
 
No it doesn not. It means knowing beforehand what that arrangement will be. I does not cause the arrangement.
Yes it does. Its even in the lexicon prognōsis:
  1. foreknowledge
  2. forethought, pre-arrangement

Biblical example Acts 2:23

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain
 
@Rella
This post is a good example of a person who lacks understanding in these things. It’s quite obvious he does not understand. In my very next post I will address it. I just don’t want you being upset or confused over Jim’s post
Carbon,

Thank you for your concern, but Jim and I have known each other a long while from another defunct forum and as such I know pretty much where he stands....

He, and @Red Baker are the main reasons I am still fence sitting.

I love them both as brothers in Christ...And you too my new friend... but nothing they say has knocked me to either side yet.
 
Yeah, it is something like a person is free to do what it will (free will). But what he wills is not up to him, it is up to God. What a copout.
What a lack of understanding. 🙂

But still, thanks for your opinion
 
What a lack of understanding. 🙂

But still, thanks for your opinion
Enlighten me please. I would be interested to learn how free will and determinism can simultaneously be true.
 
Enlighten me please. I would be interested to learn how free will and determinism can simultaneously be true.
Determinism? Who is a determinist? You?
 
God's will rules God's actions. It's not a random possibility, it is a very specific possibility; if we believe!

It is a possibility because God has graciously allowed for it, but is yet to happen.
It is a specific possibility because it is a singular contingency of God's own choosing.
It is a specific possibility because only humans can believe.

God knows who will believe or disbelieve. From his perfect perception it is certain; randomness is is only the human perspective. God has set the parameter's of how he saves: By grace through faith in Christ. Without God, nothing is possible; without faith in God nothing will happen!


Doug
Yes indeed, it IS specific. Not random. Not chance. Predestined.
 
Salvation is possible because it was in God's plans from before creation. Made possible to man who has the faith to accept the shed blood of Jesus.

Salvation is God's grace. It is the gift of freedom from our sins that Jesus made possible by taking the punishment for our sins on the cross
Made ACTUAL by taking the punishment for our sins.
 
It is not my determination that God must act when I believe, it is God’s determination that he doesn’t act until I believe. God says “if you believe”, I will save, and you will be saved by my actions!

You are under the assumption that God must save; that is false! God is Sovereign and he does what he wants, if he wants and how he wants! God being Love, wants to save, but is under no legal obligation to do so. That he is willing and promises to save is all God needs to be true to himself! If nobody comes, he is not at a loss! God would not be less if nobody believed, but he knew some would!

God’s love is vindicated by sending Christ and making salvation a real thing, and his justice is vindicated if we refuse. God didn’t need to create as he did, and he doesn’t have an obligation to redeem. He would be the same God if he hadn’t done what he did.

God sets the rules of the game, not us! And the rules say “If anyone believes” God will save them! Belief is a prerequisite to salvation occurring. Paul taught clearly that Israel was lost for one reason: because of unbelief! And the Gentiles were grafted in for one reason: they believed! And they could be “cut off” just like the natural branches if they stopped/didn’t continue believing just as the Jews could and would be grafted back into the tree if they believed!

Whoever believes will be saved! No belief, no salvation!


Doug
Of course, "no belief, no salvation"! I have not said, nor implied, otherwise. I am not under the assumption that "God must save". That is false.

By the way, logically, salvation is contingent on belief, and forgiveness is contingent on repentance, and so on. But you haven't shown me how that faith and repentance are possible in those who are spiritually DEAD, and at enmity with God.

Again, who is that "anyone" who believes, but those to whom God has chosen to show mercy, and has regenerated, and given the gift of faith.
 
I agree. God does not impute believing. Believing is not a gift from God.
Does God have to impute a gift?
1Co 12:8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit,
1Co 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,

Is it your gift, or God's gift.

I am sorry to hear that you do not believe God gifts faith.
Yes it is in contention. The concept that faith, believing in God is a gift is believing that God impute belief.

Neither was I saved by reading or hearing. Faith, believing in God, comes by hearing (or reading). John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
You have a very low view of God and a very high view of self.
If God gives you a Spirit of stupor, can you believe in any way that will benefit you!
Lots of people say they believe. Lots of people do a bunch of things in His name.
Lots of people will hear "Get away from me you workers of iniquity, for I never knew you"

This idea you have that you have faith and then come to know who Christ is, is false faith.
The may well believe what they read, but they do not believe in the God who wrote it. You must understand the difference believing someone or something and believing in someone or something. Believing is mental assent, mentally accepting it. Believing In someone or something is mental assent plus trust; it is by not believing in God that the atheist fails whether or not he believes what he reads.
It seems that you are accusing yourself.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

No I didn't.
Do you think the above applies to the elect of God?
That would be sad.
 
Determinism and free will are two opposing views. So then answer your own question.
I’m not a determinist. Sorry.
🙂
 
You certainly are not a free willer, at least not a theological free willer. What do you think the alternative is?
You think determinism is the only option?

Okay. 🙂
 
God is soverigne. Do you agree?
I don't agree with your view, you definition, or what seems to me to be the standard Calvinist definition of God's sovereignty.
 
Do you not believe that God actively foreordains all things?
Careful Jim,

Your sounding a little Calvin like these days.
 
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