Romans 9 from a free will prespective

[makesends]

I don't know what people are reading about Calvinism but the Reformers taught we have free will. The exception is salvation. We don't have free will where salvation is concerned.

I'm supposing that most anti-Calvinists get their information about Calvinism from dubious internet sources.

You have a point there. It is a bit of sand in my swimsuit about some Calvinists, that they allow some true (absolute) spontaneity on the part of the human, when it is logically self-contradictory. To me, that is, essentially, still self-determinism. If a person is not specifically, in every detail, caused to choose what he chooses, then he is a first cause of new chain(s) of causation.

Only God can do "new".

 

[JIM]

So more towards deism

Not at all. I believe that there is a lot in this creation that God causes. I believe there is also a lot in the creation that God hasn't caused that He permits. Do you believe that God has the free will to permit something that He could prevent if He chose to?

 

[makesends]

Without going into a long discussion, let me just say that I believe that God is in complete and total control of His creation, whether He actually causes it or whether He permits it (instead of preventing it, which he could do if He so chose).

Then, logically, he is in control of every smallest detail.

 

[JIM]

Then, logically, he is in control of every smallest detail.

In control; not causative.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

You have a point there. It is a bit of sand in my swimsuit about some Calvinists, that they allow some true (absolute) spontaneity on the part of the human, when it is logically self-contradictory. To me, that is, essentially, still self-determinism. If a person is not specifically, in every detail, caused to choose what he chooses, then he is a first cause of new chain(s) of causation.

Only God can do "new".

It is more a secular philosophical system of determinism versus free will that you are highlighting. The Biblical view has to be different.

If a person has the choice of 5 ice cream flavours and they choose one, God knew what it would be but that doesn't negate the fact they made that choice. Even though the outcome was known to God and to the future, they still had a choice.

And this says nothing of spiritual salvation, which comes from God alone. This is where Calvinism comes in by saying God chose them to be saved before the universe came into existence, hence from the point of view of salvation, man, who is dead in sin, does not save himself by any means at all, whether "belief" or works.

 

[Carbon]

Not at all. I believe that there is a lot in this creation that God causes. I believe there is also a lot in the creation that God hasn't caused that He permits. Do you believe that God has the free will to permit something that He could prevent if He chose to?

You believe God has absolute free will so He can choose to do things against His nature?

 

[Arial]

Without going into a long discussion, let me just say that I believe that God is in complete and total control of His creation, whether He actually causes it or whether He permits it (instead of preventing it, which he could do if He so chose).

Does He control according to contingencies?

 

[fastfredy0]

This is a philosophical issue, not a strictly scriptural one! Philosophy seeks to fill in the gaps in the information scripture gives us. We are told God knows all things; but it doesn’t explain how this is fully accomplished.

Logic does explain does show that God cannot know the future unless He determines it.
Premise 1: From nothing nothing comes else it would be something.
Premise 2: There was a time when there was nothing except God. (no creation, nothing with a beginning)
Premise 3: God knows all future events
Conclusion: Nothing created is self-determined. Free Willyism (self-determination) is a fantasy.

 

[TibiasDad]

Who said "must"?

Philippians 1:29 does not mention being give mere ability. Belief itself is granted.

29For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him, 30since you are going through the same struggle you saw I had, and now hear that I still have.

We have been granted the grace to be able to believe, and to be able to suffer for him. If we are given faith/belief in your sense of the word, then we have also been given suffering by God.

Doug

 

[fastfredy0]

But God determined, i.e., created, the laws of nature. In other words, as I noted earlier, compatibilism declares that man is free to do as he wills, however, as he wills is determined by God.

Agreed

That is not free will.

Well, it is one definition of Free Will which is the ability to do whatever you wish at the time. There's also libertarian Free Will.
If you want to give your definition of Free Willyism, that's fine. Give us your definition so we know what you're talking about.

 

[Arial]

Without going into a long discussion, let me just say that I believe that God is in complete and total control of His creation, whether He actually causes it or whether He permits it (instead of preventing it, which he could do if He so chose).

Control or govern? Or control and govern?
Govern is to make and administer the affairs of what is being governed; to exercise sovereign authority in.
Control is to exercise restraining or directing influence over. Power or authority to guide or manage.

So God does both. The problem arises when control is equated with determinism. And when control or sovereignty is equated with man not having free will.

Also when free will is said to mean there are no restraints or motivators and conversely, if there are restraints of any kind it means the entire will is gone. But there are always restraints and motivators that determine our choices. Our desire to live for example will restrain us from making the choice to jump off a ten story building, even though we are perfectly capable of jumping off the building. We could just as easily jump as not jump.

According to the scriptures that declare that Adam's sin is imputed to us; plus the scriptures that declare that all men consider God their enemy, and we are His enemies, "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. No one seeks God, no not one." we have a restraint on our will that is there purley from the imputed sin of Adam first, and second our fleshly desires. We are perfectly capable of making a choice one way or the other, but we won't seek God because we don't want to.

 

[JIM]

According to the scriptures that declare that Adam's sin is imputed to us;

Where does it say that?

 

[TibiasDad]

Logic does explain does show that God cannot know the future unless He determines it.
Premise 1: From nothing nothing comes else it would be something.
Premise 2: There was a time when there was nothing except God. (no creation, nothing with a beginning)
Premise 3: God knows all future events
Conclusion: Nothing created is self-determined. Free Willyism (self-determination) is a fantasy.

The conclusion is assumed in the establishment of the premises. The syllogism is flawed. The premises are true within themselves but it, that is as independent statements, but the reality of premise 2 does not logically flow from premise 1, nor does 3 follow from 2. And the conclusion has no logical connection to the premises, for nothing in the premises say’s anything about determination at all, nor about the creator of things.

Doug

 

[JIM]

Logic does explain does show that God cannot know the future unless He determines it.
Premise 1: From nothing nothing comes else it would be something.
Premise 2: There was a time when there was nothing except God. (no creation, nothing with a beginning)
Premise 3: God knows all future events
Conclusion: Nothing created is self-determined. Free Willyism (self-determination) is a fantasy.

In other words, your conclusion is that God is incapable of creating any creature with free will. Another fallacy like God being incapable of communicating to an unregenerate person.

 

[fastfredy0]

In other words, your conclusion is that God is incapable of creating any creature with free will.

Yes ... that's obvious. Even God cannot create something that He does not know what it would do if:
1) God is all knowing and
2) Free will is defined as determined by powers other than God and
3) assuming there is not another eternal power

The definition of God that He supplied us (all the omni-this and omni-that) means no created thing can do something that God did not cause.
He is the Potter, we are the clay. Clay can't mode itself or do anything other than what the Designer placed in it.
Acts 17:28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’

• If freewill is true why has there never been a sinless human?
• If freewill is true why "pray" for the salvation of another?
• Suppose I was murdered. Perhaps I would have gone on to be saved later but the Free Will of another person can come along and determined my eternal Destiny by murdering me. So you have a problem with God the Creator determining your Eternal Destiny but you're fine with your eternal Destiny being determined by the freewill of another as in this example.
• If the "age of accountability" (that all the mentally immature go to heaven) is true then 95% of those in heaven are not there via Free Will (self-determination) but by God's will
• If regeneration depended on the will of man, what is the reason more do not receive the gospel than are seen by us to receive it? If man is Free to determine his salvation than 50% of the population should be saved. Someone/something has severely limited "free will" (or I should get a refund for the university statistics class I took .. giggle)
• For those who believe in ‘eternal security’ and ‘free will’; does ‘eternal security’ nullify ‘free will’ since I not change my mind as to believe/not believe?

yahda, yahda, yahda

Another fallacy like God being incapable of communicating to an unregenerate person.

This is a fall premise. You're the only person I ever heard make such a proposal.

 

[ReverendRV]

Yes ... that's obvious. Even God cannot create something that He does not know what it would do if:
1) God is all knowing and
2) Free will is defined as determined by powers other than God and
3) assuming there is not another eternal power

The definition of God that He supplied us (all the omni-this and omni-that) means no created thing can do something that God did not cause.
He is the Potter, we are the clay. Clay can't mode itself or do anything other than what the Designer placed in it.
Acts 17:28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’

• If freewill is true why has there never been a sinless human?
• If freewill is true why "pray" for the salvation of another?
• Suppose I was murdered. Perhaps I would have gone on to be saved later but the Free Will of another person can come along and determined my eternal Destiny by murdering me. So you have a problem with God the Creator determining your Eternal Destiny but you're fine with your eternal Destiny being determined by the freewill of another as in this example.
• If the "age of accountability" (that all the mentally immature go to heaven) is true then 95% of those in heaven are not there via Free Will (self-determination) but by God's will
• If regeneration depended on the will of man, what is the reason more do not receive the gospel than are seen by us to receive it? If man is Free to determine his salvation than 50% of the population should be saved. Someone/something has severely limited "free will" (or I should get a refund for the university statistics class I took .. giggle)
• For those who believe in ‘eternal security’ and ‘free will’; does ‘eternal security’ nullify ‘free will’ since I not change my mind as to believe/not believe?

yahda, yahda, yahda


This is a fall premise. You're the only person I ever heard make such a proposal.

Yada, Yada, Yada ~ by ReverendRV * December 28

Proverbs 28:13 (NLT) People who conceal their sins will not prosper, but if they confess and turn from them, they will receive mercy.

‘Seinfeld’ was a very popular TV Sitcom; with a famous episode about our title. In the episode, the girlfriend was telling a story to one of the main characters. It went something like, “We went on a date, had a nice dinner, yada, yada, yada; then we had breakfast”. This set a trend for the whole episode to have jokes exploring what yada, yada, yada means. Obviously this is a way to conceal something embarrassing that the Teller of the Story might not want to say, or to conceal something they might not want the listener to know. They started making jokes about all the kinds of ways that this phrase can be used; you know, Yada, Yada, Yada. I don’t need to explain it more because you have probably already seen the episode. ~ Can you read between the Yada-Lines and Know?

I found something interesting as I was looking at a Bible Concordance. I was looking something else up, and just under it was the word “Know”. I couldn’t help but notice the Hebrew word for this is ‘Yada’. It immediately made me think of this episode. I wondered if there was a connection, or if this was where the phrase “Yada, Yada, Yada” came from. The similarity seems to close to not be the case. Basically people use the phrase ‘Yada, Yada, Yada’ to say, “Well; you know…”, or, “I don’t need to say it because you already know”. In my research, here is what I found out about Yada. This form of Know/Yada occurs in the Bible 947 times. It can be used in several different ways such as, to ‘Know’ by Seeing with your own eyes, to Know by Perceiving, to have Knowledge and Wisdom. You can Yada someone because they’re famous, you can Yada someone if they’re related to you, or Yada someone intimately. There are all sorts of ways you can Know/Yada someone or something…

Have you ever said something like, ‘I went to the store, and yada, yada, yada; I look great in these new jeans!’ The “yada, yada, yada” implies you don’t want me to know how you got the jeans. Or, “I snuck out of the house last night, yada, yada, yada; my parents don’t know a thing”. It conceals what you did, to keep this from your parents. We use the phrase because we think that if we don’t vocalize what we do, we won’t have to be accountable for it; ‘but God already Yada’s ALL about it’. The Psalmist said, “Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all. You can’t hide what you did from God, He knows the Evil things you did. God gave us instructions to live by, which are his Ten Commandments. We know deep down in our Heart that our Sin is wrong…

For God so loved the world, he gave his only Son, so that we will not perish but have everlasting Life. God knew we couldn’t keep the Covenant he made with Adam; that’s why he sent his Son to do it. God walked this earth in the form of the Man Jesus Christ, and Kept God’s Covenants with Adam AND Moses. Jesus paid the penalty for Sin by shedding his blood and dying on a Cross, and by arising from his Grave. We’re Saved by Grace through Faith, not by Works lest we should boast as if we did it. ~ Isn’t it strange that when we want to boast, we don’t conceal it with Yada, Yada, Yadas?

Acts 2:23-24 NASB this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. "But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power

 

[Carbon]

Where does it say that?

Another pelagian?

 

[makesends]

It is more a secular philosophical system of determinism versus free will that you are highlighting. The Biblical view has to be different.

If a person has the choice of 5 ice cream flavours and they choose one, God knew what it would be but that doesn't negate the fact they made that choice. Even though the outcome was known to God and to the future, they still had a choice.

And this says nothing of spiritual salvation, which comes from God alone. This is where Calvinism comes in by saying God chose them to be saved before the universe came into existence, hence from the point of view of salvation, man, who is dead in sin, does not save himself by any means at all, whether "belief" or works.

Who said they don't have a choice? You're combating a strawman.

Then you go to contrasting belief vs works as if that is the Calvinist's point of argument. Once again, you are striking out at a strawman. In fact, the Calvinists believe salvation is by Grace, THROUGH faith, and not of works. Grace. And the faith is the gift of God. Do you think fallen man is capable of believing salvifically on his own? The demons also believe.

 

[makesends]

In control; not causative.

How not, if in control? The will rolls along in absolute spontaneity, and he just hems it in? You don't see an obvious logical incongruity there? HOW, exactly, does God accomplish precisely what he set out to do from the beginning? Do you think he doesn't really have specific plans?

Don't you find the idea of him not quite causing, but rather, mostly reacting, and trying to make the best of a bad situation, to be less than omnipotence?

 

[JIM]

How not, if in control? The will rolls along in absolute spontaneity, and he just hems it in? You don't see an obvious logical incongruity there? HOW, exactly, does God accomplish precisely what he set out to do from the beginning? Do you think he doesn't really have specific plans?

Don't you find the idea of him not quite causing, but rather, mostly reacting, and trying to make the best of a bad situation, to be less than omnipotence?

Doe God cause the action of every individual drop of rain, or form every individual snowflake? If not does that mean He is not in control? Of course not. Does that make God less than omnipotent? Again, of course not.

I think God needs only the occasional tweak to "accomplish precisely what he set out to do from the beginning".