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Romans 9 from a free will prespective

Re: .. and how does God know which men will be saved through grace by faith before men or creation existed?
I do not know. I was not there.
Even God cannot know what NOTHING will do in the future ... therefore, for God to know that a person would be saved He must determine it, He must decide. Therefore, Free Willyism (self-determination) is impossible.

When we die our souls go back to God who gave them..... Do you think, as they are spirit and not flesh and blood, they were created? Like the angels? or do you think they may always have been?
Before creation there was nothing but God. Anything that exists other than God was created by God. The alternative is that something that exists is ETERNAL. To be eternal by definition is to be immutable. So, if a soul is Eternal it is also Immutable. If your soul contains, let's say, knowledge that changes then that would mean your soul is not Eternal/Immutable.
 
Re: ... and how does God know which men will be saved through grace by faith before men or creation existed?
That we cannot know while in this life.
I know using logic.
Premise 1: From Nothing Nothing comes. (Latin: ex nihilo nihil fit)
Premise 2: At one time we were Nothing
Conclusion: God cannot ascertain the future by looking forward into the future as there is Nothing to see for "from Nothing Nothing comes". Therefore, God must determine via His power all future events. Therefore, Free Willyism (self-determination) is farcical.

We are saved by grace. Grace is not grace if you have to do something for it. Therefore, Free Willyism (self-determination) is farcical.

1 Corinthians 4:7 "Who maketh thee to differ from another? And what hast thou that thou didst not receive? Now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?". God had given them everything they had; everything includes faith for the elect. Therefore, Free Willyism (self-determination) is farcical.

yahda, yahda, yahda
 
  • John 1:12-13 says we are born again by the will of God and then goes on to state we are not saved by the will of man.
  • John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.” Clearly this verse defines faith as a work. Thus faith must originate from God since God’s grace does not include man works (Galatians 5:2).
  • John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh conveys no benefit [it is of no account]. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life [providing eternal life]… 65 And He was saying, “This is the reason why I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him [that is, unless he is enabled to do so] by the Father.”
  • Acts 3:16 And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health and complete wholeness in your presence.
  • Acts 13:48b and all those who had been appointed (designated, ordained) to eternal life [by God] believed [in Jesus as the Christ and their Savior].
  • Act 18:27 When he arrived, he was a great help to those who, through grace, had believed and had followed Jesus as Lord and Savior, The source of “grace” is God; otherwise, it is not GRACE

Etc. etc. .. yahda, yahda, yahda...
.... when you exegete these I have 40 more .... and more after that
Yahda yahda yahda… indeed!

No of these say that we must first be given belief by God! I don’t have the time to deal with all your proof texting. So for now I will just reply to this:

John 6:28Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

The work, the activity that God requires is to believe in Christ! Of course, we cannot believe unless God acts first to reconcile but to believe is our action to take! It is not God that believes, it is our only responsibility. Faith cannot be a work, as in a work of the law, for it is the antithesis of works.

Think you my read into the text things that are not there. Verse 40 says: For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

No prerequisite giving of belief asserted!


Doug
 
... and how does God know which men will be saved through grace by faith before men or creation existed?
God knows everything. He knows the end from the beginning. It depends not at all of whether he caused it. Foreknowledge is not causative.
 
have the ability ? What are you talking about, are people saved by their ability ? Not Christs ability
Get into the way back machine to about 8BC....What would you call it if prophetically you were to tell someone they have to have faith in the shed blood of Christ for eternal life in heaven and they told you your nuts... there is no Christ.

Because in effect in 8BC there was no Christ because Jesus was not even born yet.

They hwould have had no abiltity to embrace the truth. They have to be able to hear and/or read the word to have the ability to accept.

Same ap[p[lied to every one wh never heard the truth over the centuries.
 
Re: .. and how does God know which men will be saved through grace by faith before men or creation existed?

Even God cannot know what NOTHING will do in the future ... therefore, for God to know that a person would be saved He must determine it, He must decide. Therefore, Free Willyism (self-determination) is impossible.

FIRST.. SLEF-CORRECTING. i SAID SOUL WHEN MEANING SPIRIT.... All else stands

UNLESS, The spirits were made, some good and some potentially bad and he would definitively know the good. 1/2 of the angels with Satan were bad. Did God create them that way... as he might a spirit.??? We cannot know.
Before creation there was nothing but God. Anything that exists other than God was created by God. The alternative is that something that exists is ETERNAL. To be eternal by definition is to be immutable. So, if a soul is Eternal it is also Immutable. If your soul contains, let's say, knowledge that changes then that would mean your soul is not Eternal/Immutable.
But the Bible says.... Eccl 12:7 spirit returns to God who gave it.

Of note... it does not say he made it..... Is that important.... IDK

BTW.. I just went back to my post and I cannot correct it now.... from soul to spirit. Sorry for any confusion
 
We are saved by grace. Grace is not grace if you have to do something for it. Therefore, Free Willyism (self-determination) is farcical.
You need to rethink your definition of Grace! Grace has nothing to do with whether we have to do anything or not. Grace is Grace because the one being gracious doesn’t have to be!

Grace means we don’t deserve it, regardless of what we may or may not do! Works are irrelevant because nothing we can do is capable of obligating God to act on our behalf. We simply cannot deserve God’s goodness. That he does give us goodness does not mean he is obligated to do so by our actions. Anything God does good for us, regardless of any requirements he may or may not impose upon us! We still do not deserve it.

A husband who cheats on his wife and leaves their home, then after “coming to his senses” seeks to return to his wife and family. He can apologize, beg, and give gifts like Christmas but she doesn’t have to allow him back in. His efforts cannot obligate her to accept him back. She will only let him back if she wants to, not because of his actions, but because she is willing and wants to restore the relationship. She holds all the cards, and the husband is completely at her mercy!

She invites him back into her home and life, but he can never ever say that he deserved to be reconciled! I’ve known many in this situation and I am certain that they do not think they deserve to be there! I certainly wouldn’t!

Grace is grace because the one being gracious doesn’t have to be! Grace is not Grace because I don’t do anything, but rather because I will never deserve what he choose to do for me!

Doug
 
Get into the way back machine to about 8BC....What would you call it if prophetically you were to tell someone they have to have faith in the shed blood of Christ for eternal life in heaven and they told you your nuts... there is no Christ.

Because in effect in 8BC there was no Christ because Jesus was not even born yet.

They hwould have had no abiltity to embrace the truth. They have to be able to hear and/or read the word to have the ability to accept.

Same ap[p[lied to every one wh never heard the truth over the centuries.
Yep you promote salvation by mans ability. I believe you are in grave error, Salvation is accomplished by Christs ability, He actually saves.
 
@JIM

Foreknowledge is not causative.

Gods is. Act 2:23

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

The greek word for foreknowledge is prognōsis:
pre-arrangement
 
Premise 2: At one time we were Nothing
Conclusion: God cannot ascertain the future by looking forward into the future as there is Nothing to see for "from Nothing Nothing comes". Therefore, God must determine via His power all future events. Therefore, Free Willyism (self-determination) is farcical.
This is Open Theism. God not knowing anything until it happens. There is a stream of commonality with your Calvinistic argument and the Open Theist! Both agree that God can know nothing that hasn’t happened! You only differ in how the knowledge becomes known; by predetermining all things, including every word that we have written, or by actual experience of free will actions.

Your Calvinistic approach pulls the explanation of God’s omniscience down into mortal understanding. It is too simplistic for an Eternal God. We cannot comprehend the ways of God, they are higher than our capacities. (Isa 55:9)


Doug
 
No of these say that we must first be given belief by God! I don’t have the time to deal with all your proof texting. So for now I will just reply to this:
Not surprised .... I probably have 400 verses and you have 6 or 7 that usually rely of the ambiguous word ALL.


John 6:28Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
You sure you want to use these verses to prove Free Willyism ?
O.K. ... works for me ...
Premise 1: we are not saved by works ... Romans 3:28 For we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. The law insists on obedience which includes believing. Therefore, if faith has a human cause it is a work. Thus faith must be caused by God or this verse is false.
Premise 2: verse 29 says the work (cause) is God... if God is doing the Work then man is not. The work is identified as believing
Premise 3: verse 27 tells us the context is eternal life
Conclusion: Free Willyism is a lie .... but worse than this lie ... Paul says in Gal 1:6-7 and Gal. 5:2-6 say that if you base your salvation upon work then you are severed from Christ because that is another gospel.

If you don't believe in salvation by faith alone, by Christ alone, by Grace alone ... then you are going to be ALONE.

Verse 40 says: For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
Again, the verse does not speak of the cause of ones belief like John 1:12-13 does. The verse DOES NOT says if one's believe is self-caused or caused by God. You assume the cause because it fits your bias. Hermeneutics 101 ... use explicit verses (like John 1:12-13) to determine the meaning of implicit verses.

Free Willyism = Works Gospel = Another Gospel = you must perform all the law
 
God knows everything. He knows the end from the beginning. It depends not at all of whether he caused it. Foreknowledge is not causative.
This is confusing. Foreknowledge is not causative. Banana cake is not causative. Both are irrelevant. Foreknowledge is an effect of God's ordaining all things. Example: I know (God willing) I will eat breakfast tomorrow. My foreknowledge is not causative, but my ordaining is causative: my ordaining will cause my foreknowledge and cause me to eat breakfast tomorrow.

Now, Free Willyism believes God looks into the future to find out what will happen. Since there is nothing but God, then God does what is impossible for even God. He determines the future from NOTHING. But this is impossible for from NOTHING NOTHING comes (otherwise it would be something).
 
1/2 of the angels with Satan were bad. Did God create them that way... as he might a spirit.??? We cannot know.
Genesis says God created all things and it was GOOD. Therefore I disagree with your statement.
Aside: I think it was 1/3 of the angels that turned away from God.

But the Bible says.... Eccl 12:7 spirit returns to God who gave it.

Of note... it does not say he made it..... Is that important.... IDK
Anything not made by God is either eternal or created by another eternal being.
I don't see how Eccl 12:7 has anything to do with a soul or spirit or the soul or spirit ending existence at some point (assuming I recall the context of this discussion)


BTW.. I just went back to my post and I cannot correct it now.... from soul to spirit. Sorry for any confusion
Well, some don't think soul and spirit are two different things ... so it can be confusion as a foundation for discussion if not good.
 
Genesis says God created all things and it was GOOD. Therefore I disagree with your statement.
Aside: I think it was 1/3 of the angels that turned away from God.
Correct... Is another thing I could not change. I can in some forums/threads but not all?
Anything not made by God is either eternal or created by another eternal being.
I don't see how Eccl 12:7 has anything to do with a soul or spirit or the soul or spirit ending existence at some point (assuming I recall the context of this discussion)

OKay... then why are/ did some turn bad? Free Will by any chance?
Well, some don't think soul and spirit are two different things ... so it can be confusion as a foundation for discussion if not good.
They are... but another topic for another day... The "triune" man.... which is biblical
 
Grace is Grace because the one being gracious doesn’t have to be!
Well, you can't define a word by using said word in your definition so your statement is without worth.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this [referring to salvation through faith] is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works (not founded upon anything in the believer himself), so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

“And this is not your own doing.” The word “this” must have an antecedent, which would normally be the closest preceding noun. In this case, “this” would refer back to “faith.” Paul is not saying that grace is not our own doing. That would be redundant, because if it were our own doing, it would not be gracious at all. Rather, he says that faith is not our own doing. That does not mean that faith is not found in us; it is found in us. It does not mean that it is someone else’s faith by which we are justified. It is, properly speaking, our faith, for we are the ones who have it, the ones who are exercising it. But it is not our own doing, meaning that we are not the origin of it. It is not something that we have generated by our own power, nor does it originate in our flesh. R.C. Sproul Truths We Confess

....
that being said about Grace, it is not even close to much stronger arguments against Free Willyism which I have supplied and which are much less than I could supply.
 
This is Open Theism. God not knowing anything until it happens. There is a stream of commonality with your Calvinistic argument and the Open Theist!
I'm not promoting or supporting Open Theism. They believe God can't know the future (as best I can tell).
I believe God knows the future because He ordained everything that will happen.
Free Willyism believes God looks into the future to see what will happen which I say is impossible for even God cannot know what nothing will do and before creation we were nothing.
Your Calvinistic approach pulls the explanation of God’s omniscience down into mortal understanding. It is too simplistic for an Eternal God. We cannot comprehend the ways of God, they are higher than our capacities. (Isa 55:9)
This is a misuse or misunderstanding of Isaiah 55:9 ... yes God is incomprehensible but aspects of His being are knowable. God knows 1+1=2 and I know 1+1=2. We have some aspects of knowledge that are in common. It is not Rocket Science to know that God knows the future because He determines the future. This is a simple concept to understand; not much harder than 1+1=2.
It also does not take a Rocket Scientist to figure out that when God knew all future events before anything but God existed that the only source of information was God knowing His plan of what He would do.
 
OKay... then why are/ did some turn bad? Free Will by any chance?
Free Will is logically impossible. Your will and the number of fingers on your hand were determined by God.
The “free will” side inserts that extra layer of choice before the wanting. Somehow you're choosing what to want. You're not acting according to your greatest desire in a particular situation. Your will if free from what you want. Your wants are just there, sort of on the table and you're choosing which desire to act upon. This is a circular infinite regress; a logical problem; they are basically saying you chose what you chose. But you don’t choose your choices. You don’t transcend your own existence. Your choices are determined. You just make choices as time unfolds. The “free will” side completely obliterates reality when they try to make your choice transcendent; when they try to put this idea that you're choosing what to choose.
Amazingly, free will, somehow works differently than the rest of the universe. You can magically chose to choose what you want to choose despite your greatest desire, despite “cause and effect”, despite your depraved disposition sustained by God. How can this be?
Who controls your desires? God controlling you as a necessary consequence of your very existence. God is not just your creator but he's your sustainer (see preservation, Acts 17:28a, Colossians 1:17, Hebrews 1:3, Romans 11:36, Job 34:14-15) and he's your sustainer at all moments so he has caused you to come into existence when He created you and He causes you to continue to exist as He sustains you. Is anybody going dare say that God is not in control of his own sustaining power. He was in control of how He created things. He was in control of precisely the way in which his creative power brought things into existence … why would it not logically follow then that God is in absolute control of His sustaining power and the way He keeps things in existence and if that truth is applicable to every particle of your existence that would include your will, your thoughts, your choices, your emotions, all of you. This points out a false assumption on the “free will” side that God can somehow create things that he does not control. Colin Sketo
 
Again, the verse does not speak of the cause of ones belief like John 1:12-13 does. The verse DOES NOT says if one's believe is self-caused or caused by God. You assume the cause because it fits your bias. Hermeneutics 101 ... use explicit verses (like John 1:12-13) to determine the meaning of implicit verses.

John 1:11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name,

The context of 1:12-13 begins in these verses, and cannot be properly understood without them. John aptly describes that Jesus’s arrival to the Jewish nation, his own, was generally not received positively, but there were some, who did receive him openly, and this was by believing in his name. Thus, the act of receiving him is a human action, and that reception is equated to the believing in his name.

There are two acts in this scene, the act of believing and the act of receiving. But the act of receiving implies the act of giving by another party, a party other than the receiving party. This means the receiving is the result of the act of believing. (There is nothing said about receiving belief from God, or needing to do so as a prerequisite event.)

So what is received, and who is the giver?

he gave the right to become children of God—

The receiver is given “the right to become” a child of God. This is a logical progression not a conscious experiential progression, for Jesus Christ, must sprinkle our hearts with his blood and cleanse our conscience of guilt to be able to become a child of God.

But what does being ‘a child of God’ mean?

13children born not of natural descent,

That is that we are not children of God because of our physical genealogy, ie, physical children of Abraham, nor (are we children) of human decision or a husband’s will,

That is that this is not effected by any human capacity or by any physical means of man, nor is it a purely physical construct in nature, but rather, we are born of God.

Born, is the idea of coming to life, not physical, but spiritual life and being indwelt by the Spirit of life. It is the dynamic change from being dead in relation to God to being alive and in interactive fellowship with God. It is a change of spiritual reality not a physical reality.

This action, is of God; which means it can only be accomplished by God himself, and it is totally subjected to his will and sovereign judgment. Again, this is exactly what I have been saying: that no human effort is capable of obligating God to act or respond to us; he only acts according to his own desires and will, not that of human beings. He sets the rules, and the rules never say that he must give us belief! The rules say we must believe!

God’s rules say it is not by physical genealogy. Nor is it effected by human willpower or desire. It is a spiritual dynamic that only God has the right and means and power to initiate and accomplish! It is totally under his control! Totally effected by his will and power alone!

This is about the dynamic of becoming children not about receiving faith or belief from God!


Doug
 
Did you think you believe because of what was said in the Bible or because you think God simply imputed belief into your mind? It sounds to me like the latter.
God imputing belief?
What does that even mean!
someone shared their testimony with me. Much like those first Christians hearing Peter preached.
I was cut to the heart by the power of God.
I was obedient to His leading.
I never ceased to be amazed that so many think God cannot communicate in any way whatever that the unregenerate could comprehend.
This is not in contention. I wonder why you are going here. I never said such a thing nor hinted at it.
Yet here you are forming opinions that fit your narrative.
That whole scenario is not a failure of man's ability but rather a limitation placed upon God's ability.
See the strawman you created, and then you want to put that nonsense on others.

I was not hiding the fact that even though I had read Bible verses on many occasions that I was not saved by that reading of the verses.
The point I am making is that I did not receive revelation of salvation even though I read verses from the Bible. I see many atheists refer to the Bible in many derogatory ways.

Your testimony:
No, I believed by reading the bible? I was saved by God because I believed in what He said in the Bible.
I remarked that your understanding must be better than those atheists who read the Bible but do not believe what they read.
You tried to change that around into a strawman.

Is that the only way you know how to debate?
 
Well, you can't define a word by using said word in your definition so your statement is without worth.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this [referring to salvation through faith] is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works (not founded upon anything in the believer himself), so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

“And this is not your own doing.” The word “this” must have an antecedent, which would normally be the closest preceding noun. In this case, “this” would refer back to “faith.” Paul is not saying that grace is not our own doing. That would be redundant, because if it were our own doing, it would not be gracious at all. Rather, he says that faith is not our own doing. That does not mean that faith is not found in us; it is found in us. It does not mean that it is someone else’s faith by which we are justified. It is, properly speaking, our faith, for we are the ones who have it, the ones who are exercising it. But it is not our own doing, meaning that we are not the origin of it. It is not something that we have generated by our own power, nor does it originate in our flesh. R.C. Sproul Truths We Confess

....
that being said about Grace, it is not even close to much stronger arguments against Free Willyism which I have supplied and which are much less than I could supply.
Have you ever formally studied Greek? I could quote Arminian scholars but that would just duplicate your appeal to authority fallacy. I’m surely not an expert by any stretch, but I try to think for myself in these matters by taking my formal education and continuing to add to it by self-study. But in this case, it is not even needed because even the English version is clear about to what the “and this is not of yourself” is referring.

Salvation is the thing that is not by works; it is by or through faith. Salvation is by Grace which is accessible through faith, and this salvation is not of ourselves, not of our own doing; it, salvation, is a gift of God, not something earned by working for it, but an undeserved gift, so we cannot claim that we’ve earned it or are worthy of it!

Thus, Grace is an undeserved blessing of God, and one that God was not obligated to give us. Works are irrelevant because they can never make us worthy of deserving salvation. We are always undeserving of Salvation, yet God gives it anyway.


Doug
 
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