Romans 9 from a free will prespective

[David1701]

Have you ever formally studied Greek? I could quote Arminian scholars but that would just duplicate your appeal to authority fallacy. I’m surely not an expert by any stretch, but I try to think for myself in these matters by taking my formal education and continuing to add to it by self-study. But in this case, it is not even needed because even the English version is clear about to what the “and this is not of yourself” is referring.

Salvation is the thing that is not by works; it is by or through faith. Salvation is by Grace which is accessible through faith, and this salvation is not of ourselves, not of our own doing; it, salvation, is a gift of God, not something earned by working for it, but an undeserved gift, so we cannot claim that we’ve earned it or are worthy of it!

Thus, Grace is an undeserved blessing of God, and one that God was not obligated to give us. Works are irrelevant because they can never make us worthy of deserving salvation. We are always undeserving of Salvation, yet God gives it anyway.


Doug

Actually, it's the whole package, in Eph. 2:8, that is the gift of God (salvation-by-grace-through-faith).

We know that one cannot even "see" the Kingdom of God, never mind enter it through faith in Jesus Christ, unless he has been born again (John 3 conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus). We also know that that faith is something given by God, not something generated by sinful man.

2 Pet. 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained by lot the same kind of precious faith with us, in the righteousness of our God and Saviour, Jesus Christ:

RWP (Robertson's Word Pictures)
...

"To them that have obtained (τοις λαχουσιν). Dative plural articular participle second aorist active of λαγχανω, old verb, to obtain by lot (Lu 1:9), here with the accusative (πιστιν) as in Ac 1:17."

 

[JIM]

@JIM



Gods is. Act 2:23

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

The greek word for foreknowledge is prognōsis:
pre-arrangement

It does not mean pre-arrangement. That comes from the Greek word ὁρίζω [horizō] meaning to apoint, decree, determine. Foreknowledge means to know before. And of course, knew beforehand what would occur. In this case He planned it knowing how it would turn out.

As I said, foreknowledge is not causative.

 

[JIM]

This is confusing. Foreknowledge is not causative. Banana cake is not causative. Both are irrelevant. Foreknowledge is an effect of God's ordaining all things. Example: I know (God willing) I will eat breakfast tomorrow. My foreknowledge is not causative, but my ordaining is causative: my ordaining will cause my foreknowledge and cause me to eat breakfast tomorrow.

God knows all things, God does not cause all things. If you believe that, then you believe that God is the source of all evil. Thatis simply not true.

Foreknowing and ordaining are two different things altogether. Proclaiming that they are the same is one of those spectacularly wrong Calvinist ideas.

 

[Rella]

Free Will is logically impossible. Your will and the number of fingers on your hand were determined by God.
The “free will” side inserts that extra layer of choice before the wanting. Somehow you're choosing what to want. You're not acting according to your greatest desire in a particular situation. Your will if free from what you want. Your wants are just there, sort of on the table and you're choosing which desire to act upon. This is a circular infinite regress; a logical problem; they are basically saying you chose what you chose. But you don’t choose your choices. You don’t transcend your own existence. Your choices are determined. You just make choices as time unfolds. The “free will” side completely obliterates reality when they try to make your choice transcendent; when they try to put this idea that you're choosing what to choose.
Amazingly, free will, somehow works differently than the rest of the universe. You can magically chose to choose what you want to choose despite your greatest desire, despite “cause and effect”, despite your depraved disposition sustained by God. How can this be?
Who controls your desires? God controlling you as a necessary consequence of your very existence. God is not just your creator but he's your sustainer (see preservation, Acts 17:28a, Colossians 1:17, Hebrews 1:3, Romans 11:36, Job 34:14-15) and he's your sustainer at all moments so he has caused you to come into existence when He created you and He causes you to continue to exist as He sustains you. Is anybody going dare say that God is not in control of his own sustaining power. He was in control of how He created things. He was in control of precisely the way in which his creative power brought things into existence … why would it not logically follow then that God is in absolute control of His sustaining power and the way He keeps things in existence and if that truth is applicable to every particle of your existence that would include your will, your thoughts, your choices, your emotions, all of you. This points out a false assumption on the “free will” side that God can somehow create things that he does not control. Colin Sketo

Your choices are determined. ??????

Is that for everyone.... or only God's elect??????

So when my friends daughter married her girlfriend... that choice was determined for her? This after she had been shaking up with a nman looking for his money... or does free will play for some and not others?

 

[Carbon]

It does not mean pre-arrangement. That comes from the Greek word ὁρίζω [horizō] meaning to apoint, decree, determine. Foreknowledge means to know before. And of course, knew beforehand what would occur. In this case He planned it knowing how it would turn out.

As I said, foreknowledge is not causative.

I know we humans cannot understand everything so we find ways to try and connect scripture to mean what we want it to mean, what makes the most sense to us.

But what happens to your understanding, especially your understanding of foreknowledge. As if God looks back and forward into time to see exactly what will take place. This is not a sovereigns God, this is a god who is subject to history.

How would you work your system into these passsges?

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, Eph 1:11

For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Col 1:16-17

I form light and create darkness;
I make well-being and create calamity;
I am the LORD, who does all these things.
“Shower, O heavens, from above,
and let the clouds rain down righteousness;
let the earth open, that salvation and righteousness may bear fruit;
let the earth cause them both to sprout;
I the LORD have created it.
“Woe to him who strives with him who formed him,
a pot among earthen pots!
Does the clay say to him who forms it, ‘What are you making?’
or ‘Your work has no handles’? Isaiah 45:7-9

The lot is cast into the lap,
but its every decision is from the LORD. Prob 16:33


I would really be interested in your thoughts on this?

 

[Carbon]

Your choices are determined. ??????

Is that for everyone.... or only God's elect??????

So when my friends daughter married her girlfriend... that choice was determined for her? This after she had been shaking up with a nman looking for his money... or does free will play for some and not others?

How about,
And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. Roman’s 1:28

 

[JIM]

God imputing belief?
What does that even mean!
someone shared their testimony with me. Much like those first Christians hearing Peter preached.
I was cut to the heart by the power of God.
I was obedient to His leading.

I agree. God does not impute believing. Believing is not a gift from God.

This is not in contention. I wonder why you are going here. I never said such a thing nor hinted at it.
Yet here you are forming opinions that fit your narrative.

Yes it is in contention. The concept that faith, believing in God is a gift is believing that God impute belief.

I was not hiding the fact that even though I had read Bible verses on many occasions that I was not saved by that reading of the verses.

Neither was I saved by reading or hearing. Faith, believing in God, comes by hearing (or reading). John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

I remarked that your understanding must be better than those atheists who read the Bible but do not believe what they read.

The may well believe what they read, but they do not believe in the God who wrote it. You must understand the difference believing someone or something and believing in someone or something. Believing is mental assent, mentally accepting it. Believing In someone or something is mental assent plus trust; it is by not believing in God that the atheist fails whether or not he believes what he reads.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

You tried to change that around into a strawman.

No I didn't.

 

[Carbon]

How about,
And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. Roman’s 1:28

Seems to me, and I could be wrong, that sustaining grace has been removed. Since that is so, they can and will harden their hearts and act more sinful…. Willingly

 

[Carbon]

I agree. God does not impute believing. Believing is not a gift from God.

Sure it is. See Eph 2

The concept that faith, believing in God is a gift is believing that God impute belief.

It is? Where do you get that from?

 

[fastfredy0]

John 1:11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name,

I'll give you props for supplying answer.

 

[fastfredy0]

I could quote Arminian scholars but that would just duplicate your appeal to authority fallacy.

I wasn't appealing to authority.... I just didn't want to plagiarize the guy. LOL

Thus, Grace is an undeserved blessing of God, and one that God was not obligated to give us. Works are irrelevant because they can never make us worthy of deserving salvation. We are always undeserving of Salvation, yet God gives it anyway.

I'll give you the last word.

 

[JIM]

I know we humans cannot understand everything so we find ways to try and connect scripture to mean what we want it to mean, what makes the most sense to us.

But what happens to your understanding, especially your understanding of foreknowledge. As if God looks back and forward into time to see exactly what will take place. This is not a sovereigns God, this is a god who is subject to history.

You have a God that does not respond. That comes from your view of the sovereignty of God. That is a problem way before your misunderstanding about foreknowledge. There is a theology, called Open Theology or Open Theism. It posits that God cannot foreknow anything that He has not caused. It is false.

You said, "As if God looks back and forward into time to see exactly what will take place". That is not exactly the case. How He knows what will take place really is not known to us. We, at least I, do not know how God does that, but God says that He does. That does not preclude our free will. He knows what our freewill decisions will be. He does not need to cause something to know that it will happen.

There is a lot more that I could say about this. If any are interested, I will.

 

[JIM]

Sure it is. See Eph 2

No it is not. The gift in Ephesians 2 is salvation, specifically salvation by grace through faith.

 

[JIM]

Your choices are determined. ??????

Is that for everyone.... or only God's elect??????

So when my friends daughter married her girlfriend... that choice was determined for her? This after she had been shaking up with a nman looking for his money... or does free will play for some and not others?

Rella, they believe that God causes everything, both the good and the evil. They believe God causes people to sin and then condemns him to hell for doing what He caused him to do. That is what determinists, the non-freewillers, believe. The believe that God is in control of everything. That is true. However, they believe that in control of everything means to cause everything; that is not true.

 

[Carbon]

You have a God that does not respond. That comes from your view of the sovereignty of God. That is a problem way before your misunderstanding about foreknowledge. There is a theology, called Open Theology or Open Theism. It posits that God cannot foreknow anything that He has not caused. It is false.

You said, "As if God looks back and forward into time to see exactly what will take place". That is not exactly the case. How He knows what will take place really is not known to us. We, at least I, do not know how God does that, but God says that He does. That does not preclude our free will. He knows what our freewill decisions will be. He does not need to cause something to know that it will happen.

There is a lot more that I could say about this. If any are interested, I will.

Say more, because at this point I can see you really have no idea what you’re talking about.

 

[Carbon]

Rella, they believe that God causes everything, both the good and the evil. They believe God causes people to sin and then condemns him to hell for doing what He caused him to do. That is what determinists, the non-freewillers, believe. The believe that God is in control of everything. That is true. However, they believe that in control of everything means to cause everything; that is not true.

@Rella
This post is a good example of a person who lacks understanding in these things. It’s quite obvious he does not understand. In my very next post I will address it. I just don’t want you being upset or confused over Jim’s post

 

[Carbon]

Rella, they believe that God causes everything, both the good and the evil. They believe God causes people to sin and then condemns him to hell for doing what He caused him to do.

You are wrong Jim. You’re creating a strawmen and using it to discourage another believer. Not very nice of you. You should let people explain their views, not wrongly explain it for them.

That is what determinists, the non-freewillers, believe.

Do you know what Compatibilism is Jim? Do you know the differences between this and determinists? Without looking it up? Because you are being misleading.

The believe that God is in control of everything. That is true. However, they believe that in control of everything means to cause everything; that is not true.

That’s not what we believe at all. You believe man has free will to believe unto salvation, God’s word teaches differently.

There is so much to say to you where you need correction. It’s gonna take a bit.

But please slow down, do not speak for others especially when you do not understand the reformed belief. Thanks

 

[brightfame52]

It does not mean pre-arrangement. That comes from the Greek word ὁρίζω [horizō] meaning to apoint, decree, determine. Foreknowledge means to know before. And of course, knew beforehand what would occur. In this case He planned it knowing how it would turn out.

As I said, foreknowledge is not causative.

Hi Jim, it does mean pre arrangement.

 

[brightfame52]

No it is not. The gift in Ephesians 2 is salvation, specifically salvation by grace through faith.

Right, Salvation by grace through faith is the Gift of God

 

[JIM]

Hi Jim, it does mean pre arrangement.

No it doesn not. It means knowing beforehand what that arrangement will be. I does not cause the arrangement.